TheAsset

iTrader: (11)

Has anyone actually tuned with water/meth injection utilizing either the PWM or On/Off outputs from the ECU? I've done lots of searching but haven't come across anything concrete, at least on the RX7 side of things.

It seems like using one of the PWM outputs may be a bit tricky. Using the On/Off output seems more straight forward in terms of running a relay that'll click on the pump when the ECU grounds the connection.

If that is in fact the case, would it make more sense to just use a water/methanol failsafe--progressive controller setup (ie. AEM Failsafe Gauge) and use one of its alarm trigger outputs in conjunction with the Adaptronic?

rx72c

iTrader: (8)

I have used a PWM to control Water/Meth waterflow. What did you need to know?

TheAsset

iTrader: (11)

I'm assuming I'll be using 2 outputs from the Adaptronic. One acting as the 'On/Off' switch for the pump itself, and the other output(PWM) for the solenoid? I need to call CoolingMist and make sure the solenoid I have is capable for the job, as well as get a correct nozzle size for a 'water/meth' mixture. Before I only ran water with a CM7 nozzle (~600cc)

This is the kit I'm using for reference:

https://www.coolingmist.com/pagedisp...key=turbo_kits,

What will I be using to scale the duty cycle of the solenoid? (RPM?--IDC? -- if that's even possible?)

I've also thought about buying the 'AEM Water/Meth Failsafe Gauge' in hopes of utilizing one of it's trigger alarms plumbed to the Adaptronic to cut boost or something of the sorts, is that doable?

Water/Methanol FAILSAFE Device

Slides

To get the very best efficiency from a PWM controlled WI system you would use a spare 3d fuel or ignition table and map the WI duty cycle based on a combination of both load (boost) and flow (roughly rpm dependant in torque band of the engine) so that it was somewhat a reflection of fuelling, above the WI threshold.

If going with a pump setup with fixed output pressure, assuming your nozzle(s) are sized for full flow at full boost max power I'd start with the 3D map zeroed out up to 0.7bar boost or wherever you want it to kick in, and starting at 3000rpm or whatever rpm you actually make over the WI threashold boost, tapering up to ~40% DC at max boos at 3000rpm (if you can make it there), then roughly linearly increasing at full boost up to 100% duty at your max power rpm point. Same thing at the WI switch boost level, tapering from 0% up to whatever rough proportion of peak power you make at switch point boost at peak power rpm. This style mapping is easier to linerise for accurate AI:fuel/power with the very high pressure pump styles, with pre-turbo boost driven air atomisers you have to start/taper it a bit differently as the flow rate is partially compensated by the rising boost pressure. Could use a basic digital output set for on over XX MAP to start the pump just under your initial DC map to make sure you will have flow by the time it is cycling in transient accel.

Ie to get a very consistent AI:fuel ratio on a high pressure water pump based system the 3D map will look like a diagonal sloped plane rising away from your minimum start point in both boost & rpm directions with the peak point/level(easiest just to flat line it over peak power rpm unless you have ignition strength issues or a very big overrev and power fall off due to modest port but high rev limit). There are details in the wari manual on using the ignition or fuel tables for DC output applications regarding what is 0-100DC in terms of a timing no or fuel open time in MS or VE.

Alternatively, you could just run two nozzles on low amp outputs through small solid state relays to drive solenoids either on or off, if you do the maths on fuel flow and ratio matching, on most setups you get the closest match by running one large injector coming in first (can trigger this on a simple on above X MAP) then triggering the second sized at 50% of the primary as an "and" logic output by adding the first output and an rpm threshold. A pre-turbo air atomiser setup driven by boost will give more accurate flow matching using this technique than a fixed output pressure pump system, but it will still bre pretty decent.

Using either of the above methods will give you a much better AI consumption and minimise any loss of midrange power due to over-rich AI compared to a simple on/off single stage nozzle sized for max power.

Slides

Interpolate between corners is bomb. Takes 30 seconds to do this. Obviously you would try to do some accurate guestimation maths to suit your particular setup.

Logged out so can't edit previous post, I forgot to say, if using two stage on/off, you use the first stage on off with boost as a normal digi output, the rpm on off as a logic only and the "AND" output as a digi output.

It would actually be a really good idea to email the guys on the tech address and ask them to modify the software so that the "logic only" "outputs" (should really be called internal logic stages or something) could be set as PWM so that you could "AND" a PWM logic output with a over XX MAP logic output as a PWM, which, provided you sized nozzle appropriately to your max injector DC you could possibly just "AND" PWM following injector DC with a boost threshold, so you didn't have to map it separately.

Slides

This no edit after 30 mins thing is really pissing me off.

As an amendment to the above, to follow inj DC is simpler than I thought to set up on a single output.

Could do it as below to only have it come on in boost and max out the nozzle you have at max engine power no matter what your peak inj DC is.

Just have to check a log to see what DC you are at when boost reaches your desired AI starting point at lowest rpm full load on boost point, then an educated guess for max power injector DC.

TheAsset

iTrader: (11)

Appreciate the help!

MarkG

Very informative Slides! Thank you!

Houstonderk

iTrader: (3)

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$lacker

iTrader: (9)

How do you drive the water injector via Eugene (with a modular PNP)? I see how I can select my output (ie Injector Output 5, and nix the EGR) , but I don't see how I can make the water injection correspond to a secondary fuel map.

$lacker

iTrader: (9)

Here is the response I got from Adaptronic
It's not exactly what I wanted to do, but close enough to get me by until the programming is fleshed out the rest of the way

Prôdigy2nd

iTrader: (3)

Did they give a time estimate on when this will be done? I'm getting more and more disappointed with the new modular ECU and its support, doesn't help it was released months if not a year or two early where as it needs lots and lots of polishing to make it what it should have been at time of release...

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shawnm565

iTrader: (3)

If you have a Modular ECU right now you can use the purge function to drive the water meth pump with a solid state relay. Iv done it on a few cars so far and works great! It gives you a nice 15 x 15 3D map to work with.

Cheers,

Shawn Christenson

$lacker

iTrader: (9)

Is there an article anywhere on that?
Adaptonic has dropped the ball so badly since the acquisition
Where is the forum? A manual? Added features (even ones that have long been publicised)? New articles?
All this additional manpower and resources they are supposed to have, and I still feel like I'm making **** up as I go

shawnm565

iTrader: (3)

Forum was deemed by Andy of Adaptronic to be a place of miss information and for a small team it was not possible to manage the customers in a manner that promoted proper information for his customers. (once resources IE man power is available new management will decide if its worth bringing the forum back)

A Manual is being written.. https://s3.amazonaws.com//adaptronic...GENE_HOME.html - Yes currently it is not as easily accessed by everyone but it is being written. This same information is located in the help section in Eugene software.

The Acquisition is still in the process of getting a grasp on the product and the resources that are needed to make improvements in the most effective way.

The first priority was to make Adaptronic go from being in the red to the black. (which has happened)
Secondly was to start distributing the work load which has started - Each of the 6 managers at haltech have a percentage of their day devoted to managing the new brand Adaptronic.
Currently they are still working out the details on manufacturing the product and getting the understanding of the costs vs profit of the company.

We just had a meeting with the Operations manager that is heading the in's and out's of the Adaptronic company under the new ownership which we brought up many of these issues that need to be resolved. They assured us that they are planning on resolving all of these issues you have mentioned. The big thing to keep in mind is things take time. They have a system that works for their current brand and they are using those strategy's to improve on the Adaptronic brand.

I will leave you with this - If there is a failure with one of the Adaptronic ECU's ( Modular ) that ecu is sent to Haltech in Australia to be dissected by an engineer who's job is simply to find exactly what the failure was and how to fix it. As time goes on this type of R & D will ensure the best possible product for all customers new and old. IE if your ECU does fail you can send it in to get replaced via the RMA process handled by tech@adaptronic.com.au to create a trouble ticket.

Also if you are interested on learning how to setup the purge valve function as a water meth solution I would be happy to write up an email for you just end your inquiry to remotetuning@turbosource.com

Cheers,

Shawn Christenson

$lacker

iTrader: (9)

Thanks Shawn, I appreciate the transparency
I'll send you an email

TwinCharged RX7

iTrader: (14)

I don't get it. They acquired the company and are just now learning about its cost and profits? Isn't that supposed to happen during due diligence process before you close an acquisition?

RGHTBrainDesign

Awesome way of doing it, Shawn!
Why not simply write-up a walkthrough on here? That's the whole point of a forum... Shared information.

Holdfast

[QUOTE=shawnm565;12303142]Forum was deemed by Andy of Adaptronic to be a place of miss information and for a small team it was not possible to manage the customers in a manner that promoted proper information for his customers. (once resources IE man power is available new management will decide if its worth bringing the forum back)

Miss information? Better than no information. Some of the information on that forum is priceless for someone with a older select 440d like myself. As with any forum you have to weed through the bull **** to get the info you need. Sorry i read that had to say something.

shawnm565

iTrader: (3)

[QUOTE=Holdfast;12305625]You may be an informed person that can understand to take forum information with a grain of salt. But there is another 9 people to your 1 that do not understand that. Then when those 9 other people do the incorrect thing that they read on the forum they contact support anyways frustrated because they got the wrong information vs contacting support right away and getting the confirmed proper information right away. All and all it was a better path for the customers with the limited resources the small team adaptronic had at the time. Now that the acquisition has happened and the team is slowly growing eventually I would think a forum would be more practical option for support that an individual can be in charge to manage the content posted on the forum.

Holdfast

I completely understand what your saying. But what about all the customers that get left in the dark. With no other source of information in place to fill the void. Im sure rx7 /rotary engines aren't the only platform that feels this way? Probably many different car forums out there that feel this way. So If they really are about keeping the Adaptronic name and not just become Haltech. Then why turn their back on all the loyal customers? Now i dont know about the people that bought the modular ecu's. But i love my adaptronic select. Will i get another? Probably not. Thats a good way to make the adaptronic name fade away. But not a good way to stay in business.

shawnm565

iTrader: (3)

There is plenty of information still.. The website has alot of information.. The select has a manual... Also every single pnp ECU has its own manual with all the wiring pin-outs which can also be used for wire in models because the ECU function is the same for the PNP ecus as it is for the wire in. Just have to play connect the dots with the function of the application and the pin that function resides on each model of ECU.

You can Always reach out to tech as well via email and on facebook. There is a help button on the adaptronic website as well.

The forum was just 1 of many options to get the same information.

Skeese

iTrader: (11)

Good lord what a complete load of ****. I can't get over what a mockery it has become as a whole.

Sells for price of finished product with promise of support and function, then 2 years later makes promises that capability and support are still yet to come once things get worked out, and says so with a straight face.

Good thing them select's got a manual, funny thing is it doesn't have a section on what to do when the board ruptures and fries itself. Funny...I know of 2 people who's crapped THIS month. But hey, it's backwards compatible with the eugene software, just read the wari manual and take to facebook for the rest, where everything real and factual.

whatever

Skeese