Your aftermarket toe links worn? Here's help
 

First off, my car is daily driven and sees 15,000+ miles a year along with autoxing about 25 events a year. I bought a set of Pettit rear toe links a while back and promptly wore the things out. I called Pettit and after about 3 seperate conversations they finally decided they would charge me for new rod ends and refund me when I sent the old ones back. Now I have worn these out as well and rather than deal with them again I decided to just solve this problem permanently. The rod ends Pettit supplies with their toe links are bottom of the barrel as far as what's available. After being lazy I have finally got the measurements needed to replace these with high quality parts.

These specs are for the Pettit rear toe links. I do not have access to the M2 links but they use off the shelf parts as well so if yours are worn you can replace the rod ends with much higher quality units for less money then purchasing new ones from M2.

The Pettit toe link rod ends have a 5/8" bore and a 5/8"x18 thread. You will need two right hand thread and two left hand thread to replace all of them. The Pettit rod end is a two piece steel that wears quickly since it has a low quality race around the ball. I recommend switching to a three piece that is teflon lined and then going one step further and adding dust seals. These should now last nearly forever.

www.bakeprecision.com has all these parts and the part numbers below are exact (but much higher quality) replacements for the Pettit parts. Total cost is just over $100. Here's what you need:

x2 JMT10 here
x2 JMT10L here
x8 SE-010 here

Good Post!

You are da MAN! Thanks!

(I knew there just HAD to be a cheaper, better way to do this.....):D

Can you replace the stockers with these or are they metric?

Just what I need...

But what is the length of the rod? any link as well? I have been looking for the rod, and could not find it.

Reza

haha GREAT:) I haven't installed mine yet, but will be using dust boots when I do. One of the things I learned from years of mountain biking is sand/dirt/dust and bearings don't mix-even if they are sealed. Approximately how long did your pettit links last? I recall a couple other forum members posted re the short life of their aftermarket links.

This is excellent "Archive" information.

baker precision don't have the rods listed on their website.
What kind of rods will work and what length?

reza

anyone know if the ones sold from Rotormotorsports are the same as the pettit/M2? Mine are very loose after just 6 months and 10K miles. You can actually shake them when the car is on a lift.

I believe the ones which were sold by Rotormotorsports were just rebranded K2RD pieces.

The most important part of maintaining a suspension part which uses rod ends is to keep debris out of the joint. The rubber seals should be included with the parts, if you ask me.

An "open" rod end will never last on the street, nor would the pillow bushings in the rear suspension if they didn't have rubber seals. :)

Glad to hear you guys are excited but some clarification is needed. An aftermarket toe link consists of two rod ends, a length of rod that the rod ends thread into and adaptors for the rod ends to bolt up with the stock bolts. You can't just buy the parts I listed and bolt them on, you have to have a Pettit toe link kit to begin with. The part numbers I gave are rod ends with a 5/8" bore, much too big for the stock 8mm (I think? Have not bothered to measure) bolts.

As for the tube the rod ends mount to any dirt track racecar supply shop can fab these in about 15 minutes, you can even find them online if you know the length and thread you need. That only leaves the small metal adaptor bushings that allow the 8mm bolt to fit the 5/8" bore of the rod ends.

I know the part numbers Pettit uses for their rod ends but add that to the price of the tubes and hardware included and if you were very generous you may be able to reach $75 in parts. I don't want to be in the toe link business though, I just want to share with you guys how I am upgrading mine.

For the M2 toe links, the same parts should work. They are also 5/8-18 thread. I assume the rod ends on the trailing link set are the same kind, but I am not sure which thread direction they need.

After comparing a lot of different rod ends from various vendors and manufacturers in terms of load capacity and price, I decided to try some QA-1 units from Jeg's for $18.99 each. They have a static load rating of 17,955 lbs. You need two each of 122-XML10 and 122-XMR10. They say they are self-sealing, but those seals that DamonB posted look like they might be a big help in reducing wear. Aluminum foil is supposed to work pretty well, but people might make fun of you for it. :) The rod ends I got have been holding up well so far. I am sure they will wear out eventually, but they are still good after 5000 miles or so.

-Max

Max:

Based on your post I infer that the rod ends that came with your M2 links wore out. How long did they last?

I wish I kept better records so I could tell exactly, but they seemed to be fine for maybe 10-15K (???) miles and then all of a sudden they were loose. I almost failed tech at a TCRA event because of it. I don't fault M2 for the rod ends wearing out; I think it is going to happen with any rod end. Hopefully my new ones will last a little longer, but they are fairly easy to swap when I need to do it again. The seals that DamonB posted should help extend life, so they are probably a good idea.

-Max

I agree it seems to be a design flaw that's inherent with all of them. I was looking at the suspension on a 996 turbo yesterday and was shocked at how much beefier everything is. Maybe it is possible to use bigger rod ends with more surface area to support the load better.

A local FD owner also suggested that compliance in the stock links may be necessary to prevent the suspension from binding during the travel stroke. If that is the case (and I’m not sure what he bases his opinion on) I can see how zero compliance links would wear down quickly.

About 75% of my time is spent driving in the city. I hope I can get at least a year out of them.

Save upto 30% by using Barker Precision's www.bakeprecision.com on-line ordering. Their 5/8 inch rod-end seals are $2.50 each on-line vs $2.75 each on the phone.

I just spoke with Hung at Baker who volunteered the info on prices and he was very helpful verifying on-hand quantities, etc. so I just went ahead and ordered, but next time I'll use their web site.

High quality rod ends should live nearly forever, but what wears them is the constant exposure to road grime and not the load through them. When the toe links are installed the balls are basically fixed and the eye rotate around them as the suspension moves. Grit gets caught in there and finally wears the thing out. I cleaned my worn balls (no pun intended:p: ) and got all sorts of crud out of there. The new items I am switching to are proabably overkill but they are still affordable. The dust seals alone may be enough to solve this problem though.


A local FD owner also suggested that compliance in the stock links may be necessary to prevent the suspension from binding during the travel stroke.

The stock toe links are solid spherical joints as well. The rubber you see is just a dust cover; no compliance in them. Besides, the toe links merely point the upright in the correct direction and since the upright pivots on spherical bearings there is no chance for binding there.

I have a small zippered binder in which I keep a notebook and a pen. Whenever I do any work on the car at all I record the date, mileage and the work I did along with parts replaced or any adjustments made. Takes less than 5 minutes each time and I always know how old a part is, when's the last time I changed plugs, how old are my tires, what alignment am I running, is a part still in warranty etc. I find it a big help.

Do you think if I added theh rod end seals to the pettit toe link kit I should be good to go??

They certainly will be a big improvement. If the rod ends are not yet worn and the seals keep them clean then it would have to be a tremendous help in longevity.

Can the rod ends in the stock toe links be replaced with items similar to the ones you are using for the aftermarket toe links?

I have checked for binding on my rear suspension with the shocks removed. It moved very freely, much better than we expected. I was really checking if the Unobtanium bushings at the body end of the trailing links would bind (they didn't), but I did have some toe links on there at that time.

There are six "degrees of freedom" (direction/ways in which something could move) - translation (uh, movement) in X, Y, and Z. And rotation about X, Y, and Z. All six: Tx, Ty, Tz, Rx, Ry, Rz. Stick your hand out in front of you and make a fist. Move your first up and down: Tx. Move your fist left and right: Ty. Move your fist in and out (like throwing a punch): Tz. Now twist your fist like you are opening a faucet: Rx. Twist your fist like you are revving a motorcycle: Ry. Now twist your wrist like you are grinding your fist into a wall (hey, it's the best I could think of :)): Rz.

Rod ends allow no movement (more or less) in the translational degrees of freedom, and free movement (with some limits, obviously) in the rotational degrees of freedom. That makes it very unlikely that you would get any binding unless you hit the limits of free movement. For toe and trailing links on the FD, there is no chance of binding.

I thought I saw that they were spherical bearings suspended in rubber, which means they are mostly free in Rx, Ry, Rz, and stiff but not super stiff in Tx, Ty, Tz. Solid replacements are stiffer in Tx, Ty, Tz. There would be no reason to buy faster-wearing replacements if there was no improvement in stiffness. Well, except that the replacements can be cheaper. :)

Agreed, these things aren't being overstressed, they just wear from the brake dust, road grime, etc. and become loose.

That is smart. I know I should do this, too, but I'm too lazy I guess.

No. Here are some pics of the stockers on the Mazdatrix web site: http://www.mazdatrix.com/h93-95c.htm

-Max

According to Mazda, the large ends of the toe links are "suspended" by a rubber layer between the pillow bushing and the toe link "body", as shown in the picture below (highlighted in light yellow) that I sent to Steve Cirian for use on his site.

http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/toe_link.jpg

I agree with Max. It's simply the unprotected joint collecting debris and eventually "erroding" to the point that the joint develops slop that kills rod ends in street applications. Protect the joint with dust covers, and you should get far more life out of the joints before they require replacing.

I pressed my original toe links bushings apart and I know absolutely that the joints press into the toe link with metal to metal contact. There is a layer of rubber INSIDE the joint?

The pitcure looks that way -- metal sleeve with rubber (highlighted in yellow here) inside, and a spherical bearing at the core of the bushing.

-Max

I just installed a brand new set of Pettit's toe-links and was able to use the Baker rod-end seals on the inboard ends (body side), but here was not enough clearance at the uprights. What modifications have others done to allow rod-ends with seals to be installed there? Custom spacers or ????

PS - The rod-ends supplied by Pettit were AURORA brand and had part numbers VCM-10 and VCB-10.

FDjunkie, was the problem related to how wide the part that the bolt goes through is, or was it some kind of clearance issue with the seal rubber? I think there is a sleeve you can move a bit to widen the area you bolt through. You can see this gold colored sleeve under the nut in the "Location of outer bearing" picture on the MazdaTrix page: http://www.mazdatrix.com/h93-95c.htm

Has anyone tried the rubber seals that go over the whole rod end, listed at the bottom of the page DamonB posted? I've seen these at Baker when I was in there once, but I wasn't sure if they'd fit or what size to get when I saw them.
http://www.bakerprecision.com/rodacc.htm

Also, I want to give DamonB, "props" for posting this info. It took me a while to get in a figure out the dimensions to replace mine, and it is great to see some info about how to protect them from wearing, too. The discussion has been interesting as well. For instance, I was never really sure what load rating the rod ends needed to be, and I am quite confident that mine are at least as strong as the ones I replaced now. I figure a lot of people have these links and can benefit this thread. Thanks, Damon!

-Max

ditto, very informative thread

it happens once in a blue moon on this forum :)

kidding!

Sorry for taking so long, but I've been out of town.

The seals that I got from Baker come molded on to a flat washer that goes on the spacer before it gets inserted into the rod-end. The result is that the overall length (through the spacer, rod-end, and 2nd spacer) is now too wide to fit between the upright's mounting ears, even after the insert is pushed out. I took some pictures but guess which forum still won't allow them to be posted...if your interested send me an e-mail and I'll forward.

To make these seals work on the outboard ends of the Pettit toe-links will require some light machine work to at least one spacer on each rear wheel. I needed a total of about 0.050 to 0.060 inch more clearance, so this is the total amount that I would need removed from the spacer(s).

Perhaps you could shave a little off one of the inserts with a file or something to make room.

-Max

Has anyone tried the rod-end protective covers? I'm tempted to buy one just to see if it fits. I'm assuming the "medium" (1/2"-5/8") is the right size?

I just installed some of these protective "covers"
last week. I have the M2 Toe links and trailing arms. Located the covers between spacer and ball. As FDjunkie noted I had to shave the spacers down just a hair for the outborad end of the toe link and the thickness of the washers (in the covers) on the chassis ends (there is no sleeve) for the inboard ends of the trailing arm and toe link. No biggie. All fit fine. It will be interesting to see how well they work. Oh and as for "fit" they fit perfectly. 5/8" size for the sleeves used on the M2 parts.
Regards,
Crispy
PS I can take pics if needed.

Crispy, could you add pics to this thread? I have no digicam and a pic is worth a thousand words as they say... Once everyone sees it they will understand.

Max, I have no idea what those covers look like and am interested in finding out as well. The fact that they call them a "boot" makes them sound bulky, but I dunno.

Yeah sure thing. I will take pics this evening and post some tomorrow. I should note that I installed the dust covers (little rubber cups with a washer molded into the cup) and NOT the "boot" that covers then entire end link.
Regards,
Crispy

Ok here ya go ...PICS
Two from the outboard toe link - note the spacer sleeve position. And one of the inboard end. Please excuse the messy white grease.
And one of just the seal - dust cover thingie.
Regards,
Crispy

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...postid=1568338

I have seen them at Baker, but they don't seem to have a pic on the web site. They are a formed rubber boot that you stretch over the rod end. They cover the whole rod end. I am not sure if there would be enough clearance or not, but I don't think they are too bulky -- just some rubber stretched over the rod end.

-Max

OK, well I'll buy a few and we'll see what they look like. :)

Great thread!
This will be a keeper for sure.
Here’s my 2 cents.

Anyone have any thoughts on using a quality liquid rubber dip to form a dust jacket?

I was thinking of the stuff you can buy for tool handles. You could pre-grease the unit before dipping it (spacers and all) up to the threads.

Undoubtedly the movement would cause there to be some lifting around the spacers, but you could probably counteract it with some zip-ties around the spacers after the rubber has cured.

I thought it would be at least a little prettier than foil.

More pics
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...postid=1571040

The inboard end of the toe linkhttps://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...postid=1571046

That's why we love you Jim :p:

OK, I ordered 12 (4 for each tie-rod link, 2 for each trailing arm) SE-010 (?) 5/8" dust seals, and one "medium" (1/2-5/8") rod-end boot. I figured it wouldn't be a problem to offload the dust seals to someone else if the boots turn out to be the "trick item", and if they don't, then I only wasted $12. :)

So jimlab how does the protective boot works?
did you manage to install that?

Also, a question for your trailing arm, isnt the trailing arm less than 3/8" of size? Do you have the pettit racing trailing arm or M2?

The boot looks retarded. :)

I haven't taken a picture of it, but it's about 1/2" too big all the way around compared to one of the rod ends. The openings are about the right size, but the size of the boot took me by surprise. I'll be making the dust seals work like everyone else, it looks like. :)

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...5&pagenumber=2

moving to archives. if viewing this in archives, click link above to view any further discussion...

Ok, I realize this is REALLY old, but I got a set of the rod end seals from baker and for the life of me I can't see how these are going to fit on the rod ends. I don't see any pictures in this thread anymore, so can anyone offer any help? I'm using the RP links and arms. Thanks.

Come on, I know some people have to have tried this...

Maybe your RP links' specs are different than those of m2 and Pettit?

if thats not the case then hopefully someone will clarify.

u can try PMing the most active users that have already contributed to this thread in order to get the most prompt response.

Bump this old baby up! I know it's a zombie revival, but I wanted to let you guys know that I recently replaced all of the joints on my M2 toe and control arms with the help of this thread.

I used the QA-1 rod ends that Max mentioned earlier in the thread. You can buy them from JEGS (easy for me since they're based in my town). The part numbers were XML-10 for left hand thread, and XMR-10 for right hand. You'll need 2 of each to do the toe arms. I also wanted to note that my trailing arms were LEFT hand thread.

The M2 arms were marked with a round line cut/recessed into the aluminum shaft body for the side of the arms that were left hand thread. If yours are similar you can check them easily that way to know what you need to get.