Why were no SMICs that use OEM pipe routing ever offered in the US ?
#26
~17 MPG
iTrader: (2)
BoostCrzy's youtube video of the dyno is very nice but doesn't show the exact boost level for the stock vs aftermarket setups. With a Haltech I'm sure he could have set it the same if he wanted to. (edit, just read his post again, and he said the boost was the same in both the before & after pulls)
Last edited by scotty305; 12-30-18 at 02:08 AM.
#27
Cheap Bastard
iTrader: (2)
With no tuning changes, it is unlikely that the boost remained the same with a free flowing intake, even if tuned for 14 psi. The video doesnt address this question. He can answer that better than we can.
2-3 psi with those mods is my experience.
2-3 psi with those mods is my experience.
Last edited by adam c; 12-30-18 at 08:21 AM.
#28
Racecar - Formula 2000
#29
TANSTAFL
iTrader: (13)
Something that wasn't been mentioned above is that from a layout standpoint the over/under tank setup begins to get pretty stupid with a wider than stock intercooler.
Look at that CX-Racing IC... It's all end-tank! If you make it wider you have to widen the end tanks along with the core.
That knightsports IC on the other hand is a work of art and breaks the mold in a number of ways.
If you maintain top and bottom end tanks and then widen the intercooler core, you don't gain as much heat exchanging volume than if you had moved the end-tanks to the sides.
New piping is a small price to pay for space optimization in our ridiculously cramped engine bays. I recently told a machinist/fabricator friend I was installing a bigger intercooler in the 7 this winter and the first thing he said was "WHERE?!" We are the under-dogs and don't have the luxury of making idiotic decisions like some of these mustang and corvette owners.
Look at that CX-Racing IC... It's all end-tank! If you make it wider you have to widen the end tanks along with the core.
That knightsports IC on the other hand is a work of art and breaks the mold in a number of ways.
If you maintain top and bottom end tanks and then widen the intercooler core, you don't gain as much heat exchanging volume than if you had moved the end-tanks to the sides.
New piping is a small price to pay for space optimization in our ridiculously cramped engine bays. I recently told a machinist/fabricator friend I was installing a bigger intercooler in the 7 this winter and the first thing he said was "WHERE?!" We are the under-dogs and don't have the luxury of making idiotic decisions like some of these mustang and corvette owners.
#30
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (30)
Rotary Performance has a nice bolt in stock mount: https://rotaryperformance.com/collec...rp-intercooler
The old school RE-A was similar size to the Greddy however has vastly superior end tank design. Only problem for both is there is no perfect bolt in duct available.
The old school RE-A was similar size to the Greddy however has vastly superior end tank design. Only problem for both is there is no perfect bolt in duct available.
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Blk 93 (01-02-19)
#31
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Something that wasn't been mentioned above is that from a layout standpoint the over/under tank setup begins to get pretty stupid with a wider than stock intercooler.
Look at that CX-Racing IC... It's all end-tank! If you make it wider you have to widen the end tanks along with the core.
That knightsports IC on the other hand is a work of art and breaks the mold in a number of ways.
If you maintain top and bottom end tanks and then widen the intercooler core, you don't gain as much heat exchanging volume than if you had moved the end-tanks to the sides
Look at that CX-Racing IC... It's all end-tank! If you make it wider you have to widen the end tanks along with the core.
That knightsports IC on the other hand is a work of art and breaks the mold in a number of ways.
If you maintain top and bottom end tanks and then widen the intercooler core, you don't gain as much heat exchanging volume than if you had moved the end-tanks to the sides
Hard to tell from angles displayed, but the RE IC below has beveled end tanks at both ends, CX racing only at one end, (the nicer looking CX beveled end, vs box end, is also on the bottom for reasons that escape me ?)
not defending either of these over Knight Sports design, as any innovative design changes are always welcome by me. I'm not so sure net end tank volume as a ratio to cooling surfaces is markedly different for KS vs RE design ?
Knight Sports also sell this carbon fiber CAI that retails for about $700, which some owners purchase with their U bend IC.
No idea if they are designed to work together though. No side x side pics or literature found so far.
Last edited by Blk 93; 01-02-19 at 11:06 PM.
#32
TANSTAFL
iTrader: (13)
.
Hard to tell from angles displayed, but the RE IC below has beveled end tanks at both ends, CX racing only at one end, (the nicer looking CX beveled end, vs box end, is also on the bottom for reasons that escape me ?)
not defending either of these over Knight Sports design, as any innovative design changes are always welcome by me. I'm not so sure net end tank volume as a ratio to cooling surfaces is markedly different for KS vs RE design ?
Knight Sports also sell this carbon fiber CAI that retails for about $700, which some owners purchase with their U bend IC.
No idea if they are designed to work together though. No side x side pics or literature found so far.
Hard to tell from angles displayed, but the RE IC below has beveled end tanks at both ends, CX racing only at one end, (the nicer looking CX beveled end, vs box end, is also on the bottom for reasons that escape me ?)
not defending either of these over Knight Sports design, as any innovative design changes are always welcome by me. I'm not so sure net end tank volume as a ratio to cooling surfaces is markedly different for KS vs RE design ?
Knight Sports also sell this carbon fiber CAI that retails for about $700, which some owners purchase with their U bend IC.
No idea if they are designed to work together though. No side x side pics or literature found so far.
#33
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
I know there was a test recently of the U-groove IC, it does provide a substantial improvement on the stock IC. Big advantage is being able to use stock battery and air box, drop in and go.
I wonder how much the stock IC can be improved with just better ducting? Getting it more fresh air and getting rid of the airbox pulling air from the duct.
Dale
I wonder how much the stock IC can be improved with just better ducting? Getting it more fresh air and getting rid of the airbox pulling air from the duct.
Dale
#34
Rotary Freak
iTrader: (1)
I dont know if I can help with your last statement Dale. My car has aluminum ducting between the bumper and radiator/ic, along with an aluminum duct/scoop going straight to the ic. It also has the factory airbox removed and the holes blocked off. Factory radiator, ic and twins. It runs very cool. Feel free if you have any specific questions, ill be ripping it out for a hks v mount when i get around to it.
#35
TANSTAFL
iTrader: (13)
I know there was a test recently of the U-groove IC, it does provide a substantial improvement on the stock IC. Big advantage is being able to use stock battery and air box, drop in and go.
I wonder how much the stock IC can be improved with just better ducting? Getting it more fresh air and getting rid of the airbox pulling air from the duct.
Dale
I wonder how much the stock IC can be improved with just better ducting? Getting it more fresh air and getting rid of the airbox pulling air from the duct.
Dale
I believe that a SMIC, while not ideal, can be made to act like a poor man's v-mount with well thought out ducting. I'm going this path because my SCCA class doesn't allow radiator relocation.
#38
43 yrs of driving My 7's
iTrader: (1)
Very true. That's why I decided to use the KS-like Australian U-type intercooler on my recent rebuild. A little bigger even than the KS and still fits with stock-mount battery and if you desire, stock airbox(I use the Autoexe). Almost 4X the surface area of the stock IC.
Mike
Mike
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mikejokich (01-03-19)
#40
Full Member
iTrader: (2)
#41
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I found this link relating to intercooler design, that may help some members
choose a brand.
U-bend design and FD specific standard mount setups are not discussed,
but the article is otherwise reasonably unbiased in detailing strengths + weaknesses
of various IC design choices.
https://www.mishimoto.com/engineerin...n/#Intercooler
choose a brand.
U-bend design and FD specific standard mount setups are not discussed,
but the article is otherwise reasonably unbiased in detailing strengths + weaknesses
of various IC design choices.
https://www.mishimoto.com/engineerin...n/#Intercooler
Last edited by Blk 93; 01-05-19 at 08:43 PM.
The following users liked this post:
DaveW (01-06-19)
#42
Racecar - Formula 2000
Blk 93,
Thanks for the excellent article!
Thanks for the excellent article!
#43
Senior Member
Thread Starter
You're welcome !
It would be less of a minefield if intercooler manufacturers would post pressure drops and cooling efficiency for their products.
In the absence of this, it makes sense to buy from manufacturers that do.
Treadstone Performance Intercoolers hasn't been mentioned yet.
I know they only produce a FMIC for the FD, but it might be possible to piece together a budget minded SMIC
using their cores and cast aluminum end tanks ?
It would be less of a minefield if intercooler manufacturers would post pressure drops and cooling efficiency for their products.
In the absence of this, it makes sense to buy from manufacturers that do.
Treadstone Performance Intercoolers hasn't been mentioned yet.
I know they only produce a FMIC for the FD, but it might be possible to piece together a budget minded SMIC
using their cores and cast aluminum end tanks ?
Last edited by Blk 93; 01-07-19 at 07:36 PM. Reason: typo
#44
Always Bad Advice
#45
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Thanks mdp, I imagine any aluminum IC coating is going to reduce heat exchange efficiency to a degree,
just a question of how much, and is the trade off for longer IC life worth it.
Just a guess here, but because ferrous anodizing needs to be thick, and likely sealed afterwards, due to porosity ,
to effectively inhibit corrosion, perhaps ultra thin powder coating (a few thousanths thick) would be a better choice for IC applications ?
even though powder coat plastics used probably have more heat insulating qualities than ferrous metal anodizing alone ?
I wonder if pre-coating ends tanks only is worthwhile.
just a question of how much, and is the trade off for longer IC life worth it.
Just a guess here, but because ferrous anodizing needs to be thick, and likely sealed afterwards, due to porosity ,
to effectively inhibit corrosion, perhaps ultra thin powder coating (a few thousanths thick) would be a better choice for IC applications ?
even though powder coat plastics used probably have more heat insulating qualities than ferrous metal anodizing alone ?
I wonder if pre-coating ends tanks only is worthwhile.
Last edited by Blk 93; 01-07-19 at 08:12 PM.
#46
43 yrs of driving My 7's
iTrader: (1)
I had my new U-type IC coated with ceramic dispersant, which increases the heat transfer despite being coated. The coating actually contains small solid particles that increases the surface area and thereby increase heat transfer. The change was not a lot but it did increase my IC efficiency by about 2-3% per my testing. Better transfer and coated to stop corrosion, good outcome.
Mike
Mike
#47
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (1)
I had my new U-type IC coated with ceramic dispersant, which increases the heat transfer despite being coated. The coating actually contains small solid particles that increases the surface area and thereby increase heat transfer. The change was not a lot but it did increase my IC efficiency by about 2-3% per my testing. Better transfer and coated to stop corrosion, good outcome.
Mike
Mike
I am one of them OEM purists but still want some power, and was thinking about making a custom one based on the austrailian U-type design.
#48
43 yrs of driving My 7's
iTrader: (1)
Yes Zepticon, the FD Specialist U-type. I like it a lot, seems very well built, fits with a little adjustment and still using the upper stock mounting bracket and mounts good to the lower stock cross bar. I did trim some of the supplied air box at the bumper in order to move the IC back about 1.5" in order to fit two Spal 300cfm puller fans on the front of the IC and to clear the pulleys and belts. I am just in early testing on the road and road tuning my fuel maps. Here are some early findings that reflect the IC efficiency and all the thermal management things I did with respect to ceramic coating all the pipes, manifolds, and turbos. The early numbers are looking good with maximum boost I am allowing at 12 psi(will eventually boost to 18-19 psi). My intake air at the stock location fast acting AIT sensor was 24-26C with outside ambient air of 18-19C on early testing runs. Even after 45 minutes I was still only 30C at the stock AIT location with regular road driving. This again is on a twin sequential FD, so that air is going through the at least partially spooling primary turbo. At WOT to 12 psi, the stock AIT location temp was only 45C maximum after a long boost run up to 145 mph. On my old setup with the Greddy SMIC, that number was 55-60C. the My underhood temp on the same day was 100-105F after popping the hood right after finishing. I was very happy with all of this.
Mike
Mike
Last edited by mikejokich; 01-09-19 at 10:35 AM. Reason: grammar and added one thing
#49
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
this is good info for side mounts as I am now looking for one BECAUSE of cxracing garbage. DO NOT BUY ANYTHING FROM THEM. had an issue with their front mount thats supposed to work with all stock items, it does not. when emailed about this was told had to relocate battery and remove AC (not happening here in Phoenix, and these are stock items its supposed to work with). so I wanted my money back. was told sure just send it back unopened and at my cost. well if it was unopened I wouldn't have know you falsely advertised a product (several brackets wernt drilled/sized properly at that). so now they are trying to charge me a 20% restocking fee on top of my cost to ship back AND have stopped returning my emails. anyways I didnt want to get off topic, just wanted everyone to know NOT TO consider cxracing in any way for any intercoolers or parts of any kind.
so on that note where can I find the blitz or knight sports side mounts? are they still readily available or will I have to keep checking the for sale section?
so on that note where can I find the blitz or knight sports side mounts? are they still readily available or will I have to keep checking the for sale section?
#50
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
this is good info for side mounts as I am now looking for one BECAUSE of cxracing garbage. DO NOT BUY ANYTHING FROM THEM. had an issue with their front mount thats supposed to work with all stock items, it does not. when emailed about this was told had to relocate battery and remove AC (not happening here in Phoenix, and these are stock items its supposed to work with). so I wanted my money back. was told sure just send it back unopened and at my cost. well if it was unopened I wouldn't have know you falsely advertised a product (several brackets wernt drilled/sized properly at that). so now they are trying to charge me a 20% restocking fee on top of my cost to ship back AND have stopped returning my emails. anyways I didnt want to get off topic, just wanted everyone to know NOT TO consider cxracing in any way for any intercoolers or parts of any kind.
so on that note where can I find the blitz or knight sports side mounts? are they still readily available or will I have to keep checking the for sale section?
so on that note where can I find the blitz or knight sports side mounts? are they still readily available or will I have to keep checking the for sale section?
As far as I know, there aren't any FMICs that don't require relocation of something. Even the CXRacing SMIC to my knowledge won't fit with both the stock intake and battery because it is wider.