What else can I do to keep it cool at the track?
 

I went to the track friday, and my engine temps seem to go up to 110C on the PFC after about 4 laps, or 7 min. Ambient temps were around 80F. I am thinking about getting a Mazdaspeed CF hood, but am wondering if this will help much. I have a PWR radiator, plus the mods in my sig. I also only have one oil cooler, which I am also looking into. I really dont want to put on a aftermarket front end. Any Ideas

EDIT:
Since my sig didn't post, here it is

Pineapple Racing Large-Raceport motor
Greddy Power Extreme CB
M2 DP
MP
M2 Intake
M2 Med IC w/ fan
Profec B
Fuel Upgrades (pump, 1600's, rail)
HKS Twin Power
Tuned by Badog

thats pretty high as i understand it. people have plugged up the holes to either side of the radiator to force all the air through it, that has helped a number of people. since you're movin pretty fast on the track the fans shouldn't be the problem. gotta be either coolant/water mix, water pump, t-stat, or rad.

you shouldn't need a vented hood, though it may help.

Would this help?
http://www.pineappleracing.com/Prod-EvansNPG.html

I think everyone is missing the point..his engine temps should never reach 110. The only reason it would is the following:

1) losing coolant. (he would know if this was the case)
2) Fan problem
a) the fans dont turn out because the relays are damaged
b) one of the fan motors burned out.


when my temps hit 112 on a hot day I found that the fan under my SMIC went bad. It was bad for a long time, I just did not know. you have to take your IC/Battery out and see if it moves.

Good luck.

i mentioned it shouldn't be the fans because if you're going 100mph (remember he said he was on a track)you don't need fans to help airflow. i went to a race in summit point, WV and the 2nd gen rx7s running there had the cooling fans entirely removed.

the evans coolant may be better stuff but with an upgraded rad you shouldn't have a problem keeping temps under control with the regular green coolant.


make sure the tstat is opening fully and maybe flush/fill coolant with more water in your mix this time? even with out the extra oil cooler the R1 has that shouldn't happen...i think. maybe also check out all the fins on your rad and oil cooler...

maybe we should get more details. My fans were both dead at one point due to a fuse. It was about 60 degrees. I drove to work on the highway, my temps went to about 95 or so while I drove. as soon as I stopped they went to 108+ and i shut the car off.

regardless if his fans are working, moving or not, the cars temp will never goto 110, regardless of how hard you push the car.

Should bring up sealing the sides of the radiator again (to force airflow through the core, instead of escaping around the sides and through all the holes from brackets and mounting, etc.), an often overlooked mod that pays big dividends. I noticed a big drop in temps during aggressive driving after sealing up all the gaps. The biggest rad in the world won't do you any good if you don't make the airflow "want" to go through the core, rather than take the least path of resistance (which is any open space in the rad intake nacelle area).

That was my first thought and I agree Kento, thats likely the solution here...

honestly...at 110c i would shut the car down. that is way too hot. Get the car fully inspected..something is wrong.

Thats funny you mention this, a few months ago I decided to remove the plastic insert that is attached to the undercarrage plastic. It seem to have no use. I noticed my temps getting high on the highway and my fans come on when they didnt need to before. I put that thing back in and back to normal. I guess it forces air through the rad, like you said.

Interestingly I've run many track events with water temps at 110 C with no ill effects (those days with ambient temps above 85). Of course, this isn't optimal, but I know of many people hitting these numbers on the track. When it gets to 115-118 then I short shift and come off the track.

Two things that I do that might help:
(1) run with the heat on (instructors love this :)
(2) lower your boost to about stock levels (10-11 lbs)

R

What do you have the fan temps at? I've got mine set at 85C for setting 1 and 90C for setting 2. It's rare that I see 100+C, especially at speed. The highest I've seen it climb to while on track is 94C ... it did jump up to 102C in the pits, but quickly came down to 90C after opening the hood and spraying down the oil coolers (water sprayer). I also use rceron's trick: turn the heat on. It's not too bad while you're on course. :)

Aerodynamic airflow management is hugely important, especially on a car like the FD that has an extremely packed engine compartment. If you were to look at some of the rads on some open-wheel racecars, you'd be surprised at how small they are. That's because the airflow management is excellent.

I'm not an aerodynamics expert by any means, but in examining the FD's cooling components, it's pretty apparent that a lot of the airflow management was carefully thought out. While not anywhere near perfect of course (hence the necessity to seal up the gaps in the intake nacelle, or the plastic end-tanks on the stock rad), the design was well-done within the confines of production and cost-efficiency for a mass-market car.

I noticed some threads/posts on running without the plastic engine "belly pan". While some report no problems on running without it, there's no doubt that their radiator would be far more efficient if the pan remained in place (although I don't know what mods are necessary to fit a FMIC).

A list of things to do to bring temps down: For general consumption:
1) Bigger radiator
2) 80/20 or 70/30 (minimum) water to coolant mix
3) Bottle of water wetter
4) Twin, or large single, oil coolers (for track use OE units at a minimum)
5) Synthetic engine oil (no debates please...it lowered my engine temps a few degrees where every degree counts)
6) Run lower boost
7) Turn on heater full blast when on the track
8) If have a PFC set fans to come on at lower temp.
9) Drilled thermostat (summer months track only)
10) ***Perfectly sealed radiator*** Ducting on the sides and to the nose, foam in holes around piping pass throughs, etc etc. Hold a bright light behind/under the undertray, in the engine bay near gaps, and look through the nose of the car. See light? Got a hole...plug it
11) Vented hood
12) Throttle body coolant line bypass
13) larger intakes in nose of the car - NTech Sharkmouth mod for stock nose or aftermarket nose piece.
14) Relocate the battery. It acts like a giant heat sink and once heated up it keeps the radiator hot too.
15) Fix anything that's supposed to be working that's not - both fans, any coolant leaks,etc etc.
16) Reinstall plastic undertray :D

FWIW 110degC is not a problem and will be something not out of the ordinary if the car is tracked frequently and in warmer temps. I see 110 on occaision and I've done all the above. I do however lift at 110 becasue I have the PFC set to retard timing 6deg at 110 to save the motor. No point pushing harder if the car is down on power, so I lift. Please add to the list...I'd love to see some other suggestions. Going single not withstanding ;)
My 2 cents,
Crispy

Shark what mod????????????????????

I just looked it up on the n-tech site and they have a pic but is is not very helpful, and there is little description.

"This mod is used to open the center hole in the front of the car up for increased airflow. Comes with all necessary parts to complete the job, including aluminum rods, and stainless steel hardware. Drilling is required."

i'll start a seperate thread so as to not hijack this one :)

that is if radkins even comes back

Any one have better pics of the Ntech Sharkmouth modification?

http://www.ntechengineering.com/inde...make=&cat_id=8


Also, is there anything better than duct tape + insulation to close the gaps? My duct tape seems to come off every few weeks.

Ramon

Thanks for the responces. My fans seem to be forking just fine (at least the one I can see, I will check the other one) and they are set to come on at 87C and never have temps over that while driving around town. My engine if new, and they told me they did a 20/80 mix of coolant. Maybe I need to flush it, there could be some grease from assembly floating around in there. My plastic undertray does have a piece that cracked off under the overflow tank. Also do you think the fact that I have a IC fan running at the same time, and pressurising the engine bay could be hurting the fans performance? I am pretty sure all the other cooling components are in good working order and the radiator is new. BTW how do you seal off the area around the radiator? Does anyone have pics?

I wanna say one more thing and then I'll shut up. My fan under my blitz SMIC went bad 2 times. I do have a KOYO radiator which I think was part, because it raised everything higher. Anyway the shroud collapsed under the weight of my SMIC and the fan motor went bad.

It will be worth it to take it apart to check. Good luck.

I am on a stock motor, stock turbos and a stock radiator. For track duty I run 90% distilled water and 10% coolant. I also built metal fences that close off the gap in the nose between the inlet and the condensor/radiator. Never have temp issues whatsoever. The fences make a nice difference with the car at speed.

Very similar to what skunks did here (except mine are all metal minus the duct tape :p: ) :

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...&postid=500037

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...&postid=500040

My last track event had me hitting 110 degrees on about an 85 degree day. Like some said, you run hard and boost for long periods of time, you'll see temps that high. That's the limit where I pull the plug on the fun though. Cruise around a couple laps and it drops again.

Just want to second what others have said. Proper ducting makes all the difference in the world at these speeds. However, I found that just a bottle of water wetter brought my temps under 100 that weekend. That's the cheapest and easiest fix, at least until you can address everything else. Also, running the least amount of antifreeze possible while still keeping enough to lube your water pump will result in the best cooling.

Here's one nobody mentioned. Make sure your oil cooler duct still has the rubber piece rivited to it. Most get brittle and fall off with age. When this happens, the air can just come in the duct and go through this opening instead of the cooler. I rivited some thin roof flashing to mine where the rubber was. Easy and solved the problem:

http://www.adornedmerchandise.com/Ma...Bumper0006.jpg

http://www.adornedmerchandise.com/Ma...Bumper0007.jpg

thats what I was talking about in my earlier post. I removed that piece. The only thing, my fans kept my car from over heating. My fans are scheduled to come on at 90C. I noticed when I removed it, even on the highway at cruise my fans came on. But properly working fans will keep the car from overheating. Thats why you can stand still without even moving and the car will not over heat.

"sharkmouth" mod. Not specifically the Ntech product - my own creation but the principle is the same. You might also see a bit of the radiator ductwork on the left and right sides of the nose opening.
Regards,
Crispy
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...postid=1771580

One more of the bit of ductwork I did to stop air from slipping by the sides of the radiator (Mazdacomp). Ductwork is sealed with foam strips.
Ignore the comment, it's there for another purpose.
Regards,
Crispy
PS If anyone wants I have more pics of the sharkmouth mod - PM me and I'll see if I can dig them up.
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...postid=1771606

Negatory. Maybe the coolant won't be overheating, but the oil temps will continue to climb. There's no fan or airflow on the oil cooler(s), and the FD's high engine temps will send the oil temps soaring to dangerous levels if you don't get some airflow (i.e., get moving) soon.

I was pondering trying to fabricate something using a small fan from a motorcycle radiator onto the oil cooler for this reason.

There are some threads where guys left the cars on over night (10+ hours). Had no problems with the car. Im not saying its the best situation, but the fans are designed to flow enough CFM to keep the car within operational temps.

Lovely work, Chris!

That is for an idling motor. A motor that has just spent time revving its brains out on the track ain't going to be so happy. Not that it will overheat, but it's not a nice thing to do to the motor and its oil.

OH I agree, that was just another point I was making. its still should not over heat at the track unless there is a relay problem, fan problem, thermostat problem.

Well, I checked out my fans and bother are working fine and turning on at 87C. How could this be the waterpump? It either works or it doesn't right.I don't think I have any air in my system, my coolant level has been rock solid since I had the motor put in. I am going to try the ductwork thing very soon, and add some water wetter.

Crispy, what all did you have to remove to do that other that the IC, airbox and battery?

you checked your thermostat, right?

One thing I am surprised no ever (or rarely) mentions is the fact that with the M2 intake you are stealing air from the radiator and more importantly causing a LOW pressure next to it. With the low pressure area the air will tend to flow toward the intake opening. what I did when I ran the track with the n-tech intake was create a shield to separate the intake opening below it from the radiator.

And yes you will see 110C temps on the track when you are full gas or full brake for 20 mintues, especially with 80F temps outside.

No, I have not checked the T-stat, but it is fairly new, and It would be causing bigger problems than this, correct? Also the air that the fans blow out is VERY hot when I pit, so I'm pretty sure the coolant is circulating good. The track that I am running is not a real fast track, at least I dont think so. 1.7 miles 10 turns
http://www.putnampark.com/
Lots of hard braking and fast acceleration. I hit about 130 on the main stretch. Lap times for me are about 1:26, experts like sleepR1 run 1:20ish. Actually the first time I go out it takes about 8 laps to reach 110, after that only4-5.

I ran no hotter than 103 C (217.4 F) @ Mid Ohio last week. The ambient temps were a few degrees F cooler in Lexington OH. My boost was set to 0.80 kg/cm^2 (11.4 psi). Laptimes were 1:49, 1:50 with Pirelli P6000s and EBC Greenstuffs (usually run 1:45 to 1:47 with Hoosiers and Porterfield R4Es)...

What boost setting did you have last Friday @ Putnam, Ryan? That might make a difference, if you're running 1.0 kg/cm^2 (14.22 psi)??!! Try backing the boost down to 0.80 kg/cm^2 (11.4 psi) or 0.85 kg/cm^2 (12.1 psi)...

Ok, I know I am being obnoxious with my fan crap, but....

one last thing to consider, you established that your fans *ARE* running. But you have not established that they are running properly. For example, the factory ecu sets the fans to come on different speeds at different temps. Your low speed fans kicked in at 87, but do you know if the high speed fans kick on? You should find out what the factory presets are, let your car idle and stand infront of the car, you should be able to hear it change from low speed to high speed. I think different relays are in work to make that happen.

Im runnin' for cover now cause I really need to shut up about the fan things.

I had a blown fan myself and didn't know it until I had the intercooler out. A bolt (looked like the one from the turbo cross-over pipe) was jammed in mine and burnt it out. I had no idea...good thing I never lost the second fan:eek:

Manny, my I was only running 10lbs at the track. I can only dream of what my temps would be at 14lbs.(BTW you missed some killer high speed I465 driving tonight, Phil is CRAZY!)

Zerobanger, I am not sure about the fan speed while moving, but I have a fan mod switch, and I have heard the fans change speed just after you shut the car off and you turn the switch off. I think with the switch on it turns the fans on high, right? I do know this works which I assume means that the relay is functioning properly. I will have to check with Tony (Badog) about when the fans are set to come on, he did the Datalogit tuning. I think he has them set to turn on high at 87C. I think I remember seeing this on his laptop. Thanks for your help.

Radkins,
Radiator side shields were installed removing just what you mentioned: IC, airbox and battery&tray. Pax side is easy to fab. Drivers side is a real PITA due to the AC lines. Make a template out of cereal box cardboard before cutting final out of AL flashing material.

Regarding tomps at Putnam Park, don't think because the track is short it is easier on the car. I have found quite to the contrary. Short track have less "off throttle" time and less time for the car to come to temperature equilibrium on the straights. Short tracks are harder on brakes and engine temps. At Summit Point there is a short track (Jefferson Circuit) that I lap in just under a minute. It is brutal on my car. Whereas at a track like VIR I can lap hour after hour with no worries. FWIW
Crispy

I agree with Chris. Putnam Park (1.77 miles per lap, 10 turns) is harder on my car than either Road America (4 miles per lap, 14 turns) or Mid Ohio (2.5 miles per lap, 15 turns). Short tracks are murder on me and the car. This is one reason I don't do Black Hawk, Gingerman or Gratten LOL ;)

Reduce the back pressure - use the ducts
 

As long as this favorite topic is topical again... search on the old thread:

Hot air OUT! New mod for anyone with too much time on their hands........

There used to be good pictures along with it that got lost in the ether, but venting hot air out the unused wheel vents seems efficient. As easy as duct soup...

here's the thread
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hlight=hot+air

but yeah, bummer the pics got lost.

One thing that helped my track temperatures a lot was to underdrive the water pump pulley 25%. Of course this only helps when you're running your car for a long time at high rpms.

I had heard this would help but I didn't really believe it (it seems kinda counterintuitive to slow down your waterpump for better cooling) so it was the last cooling mod I did. It made a huge difference at the racetrack. Intead of getting too hot after 4 laps or so I could run all day long and stay cool. At first I thought it was because maybe the waterpump was spinning too fast at high rpms and causing cavitation. I later found out that while high rpm cavitation was a problem with the FB and FC it was supposedly fixed with the FD. A knowledgable person told me that slowing down the flow of coolant at high rpms just allows the FD to cool much more efficiently and that is the reason for the cooling improvement - not due to lack of cavitation.

I don't have any problems getting too hot on the street or at idle with the underdrive pully but your results may vary.

Do you remember who's water-pump pulley you used ?

TIA,
:-) neil

im curious what underdrive waterpump pulley this was too. they're probably all similar/same reduction

does anyone run a underdriven waterpump pulley with airpump still on the car?

I have the Greddy water pulley with the Airpump. If you don't use the alternator pulley in the 2-pulley kit, you can even use the stock belt. At the track, this helped considerably with my overheating issue.

Yes:
http://www.negative-camber.org/crispyrx7/pulleys.htm
HTH,
Crispy

thanks svelte, crispy. what i haven't seen as far as main pulley.. no one has made a main pulley that eliminates a/c and p/s.. buut probably not much of an issue anyway its less than 4oz of material.. :)

svelte do you only run the water pump pulley? never considered a main pulley and alt? or do you think a underdriven main pulley may turn the pump too slow and result in higher temps?

I use an underdrive main pulley also with the WP and Alt pulleys.
Crispy