Running e85
 

Pretty new on building setups but was wondering if E85 is a good option to go for.
Have a pretty new rebuild 13b-REW has about 6k miles so far and currently I'm running with a Apexi power fc.
Street ported
2x850 2Xbosch 2200 and RP Rail
Turbonetics T3/T4 .63AR
Tial V44 (.7 spring)
RP fuel pump and stock lines
XS power Middle Intercooler
All emissions deleted
Want to achieve 400-450 whp

Sticking with power fc ecu management will it be capable of running e85 with the power goal aiming for? and what will I need to run e85 with the power fc?

There might other threads but decided to make one to see if anybody can help me with advice on my setup

You can use the power fc for E85. But the power fc doesnt have flex fuel capabilities. You need to upgrade your fuel system to properly run E85. I would suggest 4 bosch 2200 and dual pumps made for E85. Also a low micron post filter to keep the injectors clean. Its border line if the feed fuel line should be upgraded, in the past I have always done it.

this is a sweet build thread.

You will need bigger injectors as E85 will eventually clog the small injectors. You will need a pump capable to running E85 and new fuel lines suitable so they do not corrode. Running 400-450whp you may want to consider upgrading your ignition system as well.

Don't forget, you will need to premix as E85 will dry out the seals.

BTW - Forget about fuel consumption :)

Will I need a flex fuel sensor and program it with the power fc as well?
What pumps will you suggest?

How will I mount Dual inside tank pumps?

You can either customize the stock fuel hangar or purchase one from CJ Motorsports. Walbro 416 pumps are slim and relaible! :icon_tup:

e85 is 100% not required for your power requirements, period. IMO you're heading down a bad road. My advice, run 93 octane with water injection. For 600 rwhp maybe, for 400 it's simply not required.

Aside from other compromises and issues, the two big ones IMO are:

if your engine isn't built for it (viton oil control rings) and you flood it, the e85 will swell the standard oil rings and ruin the engine.

if you let your car sit for too long with e85 you can have issues:

Everything You Never Wanted to Know About Alcohol | Injector Dynamics

1. Do not let your E85 or methanol powered car sit for extended periods of time. In hot humid weather, the alcohol can absorb enough water to rust injectors in less than a week. If the car is going to sit, "pickle" the fuel system by emptying the tank and flushing the system by running the engine on gasoline for a few minutes.

Lastly, please try and create your threads in the proper section---- the Build Section is for builds ;)

"e85 is 100% not required for your power requirements, period. IMO you're heading down a bad road. My advice, run 93 octane with water injection. For 600 rwhp maybe, for 400 it's simply not required."

very well stated Rich.

i switched from gas to E85 in early 2013 in preparation for the Oct Texas Mile. the primary reason was the motor runs for around 17 seconds in fifth gear around the 575 hp range and i wanted the additional cooling alcohol provides.

alcohol does provide detonation resistance and makes power.

alcohol also creates a Significant challenge as to lubrication of rotor housings and apex seal surfaces.

in 2015 i had my motor and 3 customer motors running on E85. at the end of the year i disassembled all 4 motors. all motors were running fine, making above 500, one above 600, and all motors had similar Serious wear on the rotor housings. the apex seals showed mirrored wear.

3 different premixes. 3 different apex seal brands. two excellent tuners.

it is my personal opinion that may be impossible to properly lubricate an E85 rotary.

Rich makes a very important point... gasoline works just fine up to a certain point. my opinion is above 625 maybe you sacrifice your housings in the trade but below that power level gas w AI works just fine.

i will be back to gas and 100% meth as AI on the street and racegas for my 2017 Mile efforts.

i am always open to suggestions re E85 as to how to make it work as alcohol is a wonderful fuel but as yet i see no solutions.

Howard

Also, whether it has been mentioned before of not, I've seen stockish rotaries that ran on E85 and then died, and were opened up to find sludgy gunk clogging seals.

Seems like the oil injection system does not like E85 and the injected oil + E85 = sludge.

Just so you can get a different opinion, check out posts and the blogs by Elliot at Turblown. Undeniably a respected member, tuner, builder, and business, who swears by e85 and claims to not see any significant increase in wear/damage. I do know he and Shawn recommend a specific premix which they use exclusively with e85, I don't recall what that is off hand.

it's probably klotz benol.
I presume this was one of the premixes howard coleman mentioned above.

also, howard has been around for a longgggg time, and we're all familiar with turblown/elliot/shawn.

I'm not denying Howard's experience or expertise. OP is a new guy and is probably not familiar with Elliot and Shawn, which is why I mentioned it, so he can make his own decision about e85.

So while we're on this topic, what is needed to switch from e85 back to pump gas? Just empty tank and refuel with pump gas and re-tune?

I'd definitely Agree with Goodfella on E85 not being needed for your goals.

E85 Is good for a few things:

Like... Higher Power Track applications....over 400WHP. Or Drifting over 350 WHP cars.. or time attack cars that really get pushed i.e. bouncing off the rev limit (Which really isn't that good of an idea...on any fuel). The it just runs cooler than it's gasoline counter part. It's also Cheap.... really cheap. A full track weekend costs me right about 50 Bucks. And my car Guzzles it.

I put 22 Events on my first engine..un opened up..Assembled by myself and Abel Ibarra...making 480 whp. Street ported. Never touched the boost control. Beat the car up for all 22 of those events. Ran E85 the whole time. In just about a year and a half's worth of time. Off topic...but I was also using regular old Summit racing brand Push-loc None PTFE hose. The rotor housings were used.. and when we pulled them out.. didn't seem as if there was any additional wear on them than when we had the engine before. But they weren't very good to start. The Rotors...we re-used in my current engine.

It's had less events on it than the other engine. Specs were Semi-Peripheral, Borg warner 8374/9174. Car has made 512/420tq for 2 of those events, dropped down to 16 lbs of boost for 5...and turned up to 17 for another 5. So A total of 12 Events.... on the new set up. I'm currently pulling everything apart to prep for the upcoming season. And were going to go ahead and pull the engine apart to check everything out. I'll let you guys know how the housings look. They were practically New Re-Man housings.

But for your needs..... Which I don't know what the car will be used for. But if you plan to track the car... I wouldn't recommend anything over 16lbs on 93. Even with Water spraying. For the street... If you've got a tuner who knows what he's doing. 16-17 PSI even without water injection is going to be just fine.

I also know people who've daily driven E85 rotaries. Hell...i've left E85 sitting in my trailer for 3 months... and used it at the track with no issues. But i live in a very dry climate..and there isn't much Moisture in comparison to some people for instance...living on the east coast. I also use a very specific pre-mix because that Klotz Benol stuff Left a tacky Goo coating inside of my fuel tank. The Alcohol safe premix I use now....doesn't leave that residue.:icon_tup:

So I guess the main question for you..would be.. what are you going to use the car for?

Well now it's a whole different setup now than what the start of the post have been posted. New mods is a V-Mount and going with the Adaptronic pnp, BW s366 .91 A/R and same fuel system but the stealth 340 pump (or what pump you guys recommend)? Still want to aim 450 + whp if I could with 93 octane or have to add the water meth or just go with e85. I see that people suggest not to go with e85 if my power goal is in between 450 -500 whp. Is that correct?

pump gas and water injection. not sure why you seem so dead set on E85.

I'm in the pro E85 camp if it's somewhat widely available in your area, because you don't have to deal with all the water injection failsafes and such. I would run a Single Walbro 450 in tank pump and yeah, 4 2200 cc injectors with flex fuel sensor. I think dual pumps are a lot of trouble, and add complexity and failure points. See how much power you can make maxing out that fuel system on straight E85 no meth. You will probably be very happy with the car.

IMO keep the intercooler you have, which is stock mount. I'm not a big supporter of V mounts or front mounts. I trust Mazda's overall layout better than anyone's. You don't need a crazy intercooler for E85, because E85 runs so cool and the engine isn't nearly as prone to knock.

Yes, there are. About 16 in this section and another 8 in New Member...and that's using a search with "E85" only in the title. But, as been stated before, simple WI or AI without all the baggage for that power level. My .02

AEM Infinity 6 ECU
 

I can't speak to the range of the Power FC except to say that it dose has it's limits. Running E85 will help you build more horsepower because it burns so much cooler. In my car the difference is about 85 RWHP. I run 500 on 93 octane and 585 on E85. The reason I tell you this is because you can't always count on pulling up to an E85 pump if you are going to drive your car like you would any other sports car; where you want - when you want. This is why running a true flex fuel setup is more convenient and safer for your engine. The Infinity will handle this range of fuel automatically when tuned correctly. My opinion, which is probably worth little, is get a better engine management system before you go to E85. Mine cost $1700 and I had Luke from Beyond redline Performance do the tuning. I can run 93 Octane, 110 octane, E85 or mix them all together and the sensors and tuning do all the work with no worries. I know this is expensive, but not as expensive as a blown motor. Horsepower finds the weak spots -- especially if the mix isn't perfect for the finicky beasts.

I will no longer be using Power FC. I'm replacing with the Adaptronic PnP. But will be going with AEM water/Meth kit with 93 Pump not e85. Reason for this is since in my town there is only 2 pump stations that offer ethanol. Closest one is like 2 miles from me and the other about 10 miles. When the time comes that I want to go and rip the streets I will run out of e85 and perhaps leave me stranded somewhere away from home lmao

Everyone uses this excuse, and it's no longer valid. It's so cheap and easy to do a flex fuel sensor. The Adaptronic makes this very easy.

Adaptronic is a very good EMS.

flex fuel sensor is the ticket

If you are going to run the adaptronic then you might as well throw a flex sensor in there and get it tuned on E85 and pump gas.

Dont forget that the FD has a 20 gallon fuel tank, having an e85 pump 2 miles from your house will give you at least a 200 mile range.