Possible new product...Need to gauge interest.
 

I should probably wait until I have pictures to start a thread like this, but...

I'm employed by a company which does sheet metal fabrication and I'm an engineer/designer type guy there. We have a CNC laser, CNC punch, CNC brakes, etc. I want to use my employer's capabilities to make things you guys need/want , at good prices.

To start with, I was going to design a front sway-bar mount brace, which would tie them together and connect to the steering rack mounts like the Racing Beat piece does. It would be laser-cut, CNC bent, and powder-coated. The RB part is nearly $90. Mine would be around $45. Do you folks think there would be a market for something like this at this price point?

thanks,
James

long as the parts are of equal quality... cheaper is better right?

Let's GO!!!!

Like I always say..... baby steps at a time... but I say go for it man!!! more power to you.

Does $45 include the cut your employer is going to expect for using their equipment?

More importantly, does it cover your liability if your brace goes "pop" and your customer loses control into oncoming traffic?

Racing Beat probably invested a fair amount in safety engineering their parts. That's at least partially why they cost more.

I might suggest starting out with a part that is not part of a critical component of the car (steering, brakes, suspension...) Perhaps billet oil caps or shifter knobs or something safe ;)

Zullo def got many great points. Sled driver has had some complaint from co-workers, so he had to stop doing those jobs similar to what you would like to start. Also, the liability is also a thing to consider as well. Be sure to use over-the-spec material then. :D Still, you should get going if things will work out between all parties.

I have a CNC plasma system and make assorted things as well. There's many things to consider about making, selling, and marketing anything. Im not trying to rain on your parade, but there's some things to think about that I deal with constantly, you may want to figure in your costs:

1) taxes on sales and the income you make

2) TIME. Sure, the material cost is one thing, but what about your time? IE: packaging, taking things to UPS or the post office, standing in line at the shipper, returns, answering the emails from window shoppers and those that cannot figure out how to install things, going to buy boxes to ship things with, trips to the office supply store for tape to tape up the boxes, returns, credit card/paypal charges, business license and the taxes/fees/forms associated with it.

3) Liability: Is the shop you are using going to foot the bill for insurance or any liability that comes from getting a bad piece of metal with a flaw you didn't notice? what happens when your wholesaler unknowingly puts a piece of Indian sh-t metal into your order accidentally, said part goes pop, car loses control or breaks another part in the engine bay, causes car damage, or worse yet: car loses control causing damage or injury to soemoen else? What happens when said owner comes to you, your shop, the company whose equipment you are using and says, " This guy is one of your agents, so Im suing you too". ( People love to sue for the dumbest reasons). Or, what if your installation instructions are not clear for the average doofus, and he scrapes a knuckle installing something and decides your directions are not clear enough and you now have to pay his hospital bill for 3 stitches??. Also, see #2 topic related to dealing with this crap when it happens, and it DOES happen. find out what the liability insurance and requirements are for these kinds of things, you will see where the additional cost in the competitor's items come from. Unless you want to just have your personal income and property taken away when someone tries to sue you.

4) legal fees for someone to write up disclaimers and liability releases for #3. ( I know im really harping on the liability stuff, but believe it or not there's LOTS of peopel that do nothing but look for people that make stuff, find something wrong with it, and earn a fine living trumping up reasons to sue people based on their home-made, shop made, or otherwise on-the-side products. ONE bad item can come back on YOU, the shop you made it in, your homeowner's insurance, your house, your assets, really fast.)


LIke i said, Im not trying to rain on your parade, but there's lots of things that go into figuring a price for something. Our shop has been in the situation where a simple little part, a camber plate installed incorrectly by a buyer, brought his lawyers into attacking our shop, homes, personal income, for over a year. People will sue you just because they can, regardless of your intentions.

There's poeple out ther constantly scouring the internet for people that make stuff on the side like this, buy it, go over it with a fine toothed comb to see if there's anything to sue you over, and then they do so. In our case, it was just a 7" circle of metal, with slots cut in it. Guy didnt realize that adjusting your camber incorrectly would cause premature tire wear, tire blew out, accident happened, tried to blame it on our part because the directions didn't say anything about getting an alignment after installing it ( even though it was an alignment item, abd bought for the sole purpose of changing alignment). It Cost over $5000 n legal fees just to defend against the accusation which was eventually dropped. In another suit over a hub spacer ( a shim made that goes between the rim and the hub, making the tire mount 1/2" farther out). Guy said the item made his car handle differently, wasn't expecting the change, nothing in the directions said it would make the car handle differently, lost control in a corner, accident, injuries, etc.. etc.. Spent $4200 in legal fees defending against that suit, you get my drift.

Needless to say, the costs of #4, need to be figured into as well. As soon as you put an automotive product for sale, you immediately place a liability on yourself that most people cannot ever imagine, I hope our shop's experience convinces you to look into the liability insurance and legal ramifications before you make something, someone sues you, and you lose your house and next ten years' of income because you didn't have liability insurance on your products.

N

RE: Liability. There's a BIG jump in liability going from a guy that walks into your employer's shop saying: " I want this, make it" and you do, and it fails, and YOU making something, putting it on the market, and it fails.

**ding**

People that buy this kind of nifty equipment, don't normally let people use it on the side and place wear on it, for free, regardless of how warm and fuzzy of an employer they are.

We have a $85K CNC plasma cutting system. Ya, the metal for your part costs $2 to make something with, but that machine's got to make money every second it is cutting. I don't let our employees use it for free, that's for sure. They don't pay full retail but you get my drift. I didn't buy it so everyone else can make money off of it, I bought it so I could make money off of it. Most employers feel the same way about side-jobs.

How about this: Go to your boss and say: there's a market for these, I've done all the design work, we can make $x on each one, voila. Maybe you will be the new star at work and get a fat raise.

http://www.prosuspension.com/hondaflanges.jpg

I think making a knock off of an existing product reduces the number of new products you will see.

Racing Beat developed a part, you buy one or look at the picture, make lower quality knock offs and Racing Beat's profit is lower eventually leading to them having less R+D $$.

This knock-off practice is very typical in business but in small markets, like aftermarket FD parts it hurts rather than helps IMHO most of the time.

make new sway bar mounts for cheap, mine are bent :)

Make it lighter, but still as strong, than the Racing beat brace and I'll take one.
Any kind of existing part that can be remade and also lighter would be a selling point as long as the strength and quality are there.

Tim

Mazda makes 'em cheaper than anyone. They are updated with a additional piece of metal to reduce flexing of the captured nuts in the frame rail which can cause cracking.

I think the sway bar mounts are $28/ea from Mazdaspeed motorsports. No way anyone here will be able to make the same QUALITY mounts for cheaper.

damn i didnt know they were that cheap, i wonder if they work as a stocking stuffer :D

thanks Jeff!

the stock mounts are weak, so reinforcing them is critical if you track the car. Bending a stock mount doesn't cause a catastrophic loss of control of the car, the car will just sit slightly askew. If you're not aware of what the stock sway bar mounts look like, think Swiss cheese! The tie in mount that James is talking about would be a nice addition to the lineup of slowly diminishing bevy of parts we have to choose from. Liability would be more likely an issue if we were talking about a redesigned Tie rod end or suspension arm, not a reinforcing brace that just supports a weaker stock part. I speak from 6 years of track experience with my FD and my RB brace is rusting and starting to crack and am ready to replace it. I had a sway bar mount collapse on me early in my road course experiences so that's how I know it doesn't cause loss of control.
Art

could a bent sway bar mount cause the car to pull to one side while driving?

somewhat, the sway bar is designed to even the load and prevent too much body shift in a turn, the bent mount could break and cause the load not to shift properly so then it might.

TurboJeff,
This would not be a knock-off part. It will be my own design, constructed from sheet metal as opposed to being milled out of billet like theirs appears to be. A knock-off part, to me, would be like a copy of a Mazdaspeed bodykit piece. I am just making something that fixes a known problem with these cars, not stealing anyone's design or R&D.

To other's concerns about liability:
How is there a liability issue with a part which strengthens a weak stock part? If my part were to magically turn into balsa wood you'd just be back to the stock-level of strength in that area...It could never cause you to wreck.

I'm going to have a prototype made for myself, and will post pics here to see if anyone else wants one. The $45 is the price that it will stay at. I've already had the piece quoted to me and added to it for my own profit (not a crime), time, etc.

-James

And yours broke in a time and manner that wouldn't change in anyone else's failure?

I wonder how many people could explain that they've had a tire blowout or loose it's tread and it won't cause a Ford Explorer to flip over and kill/paralyze the occupants. Ford and Firestone lost quite a bit of money on that one.

I also saw a pic of a B-52 that had just landed, they refueled it and the wing broke. I now know that a wing breaking off a B-52 will not cause any harm to the pilot.

antiSUV,

I REALLY doubt that RB's brace is machined from a block of aluminum, $90 would be really cheap for a billet part of that size.

If your brace functions the same way and attaches the same way but is only made out of a different (cheaper in your understanding) material or process then it is still a knock off.

I like the idea. As long as you don't copy the RB design, it seems like a good idea. If its well made, I would buy one.

The RB brace is painted steel. It's welded together in parts and I think part of it made from hollow tubing.

Whether or not you can envision a catastrophic failure (as we know, nobody ever plans accidents in advance), it would be prudent to at least hire an attorney to draft a disclaimer and to check on patent and copyright infringement.

That said, if you are able to produce these at $45 a pop I would potentially be interested in one - but only after you've produced enough of them to work out the design flaws!

Why don't you whip up a prototype and post some pics?

Patent infringement... You guys crack me up. There are no patents on this crap. Does anyone understand how expensive it is to get a patent no less defend it?

*+-*art

WWWWWHOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
STOP!

If a sway bar mount fails, or both fail or the whole fucking sway bar falls off(unless it goes thru a tire) is NOT Going to cause a loss of control of the CAR! THINK PEOPLE!
Art

Think if your cornering at the limit, on the street or track, either end of the mounting of the front bar comes off/loose. You now have effectively have a HUGE rear bar and oversteer is happening. With superior driving skills you dial in opposite lock but find that won't help, now your sliding off the track/road backwards into whatever.

It doesn't take a 100mph impact to kill someone, even with safety gear, cage, etc. Remember the two factory Suby rally drivers that were killed? IIRC they were going 80mph. Dale Earnhart's crash was equivalent to a 45mph impact head-on into a wall.

This mount is supposed to add to the support of the existing mount...........right???
So, even if it does somehow fail, the stock mount should still function.

Has anyone heard of someone having a horrible crash because of a failure of the stock mounts??

We see so many bad ideas on this forum. It seems like anyone with a good idea really gets put thru the wringer before it is accepted. I hope this idea isn't scrapped because of too many negative comments.

Why dont you fab up a engine shroud to get your feet wet,people will allways pay for a little bling,then move on to the specialised stuff later.
can I have mine in extra shiny please

Someone already did that recently, and while it looked very nice, noone wanted to pay the price. There is a thread around here somewhere.

Granted its a good idea just not very smart. Theres alot of things involved with stuff like that. First off just think about liability issues. 1 his boss would be responsible for anything that went wrong unless this guy did it on his own time and showed that he was paying his boss, and his boss has it wrote down that hes not held responsible for anything that may go wrong. 2 this guy alone would be knee deep in shit if an accident was caused or anything else, granted it doesnt happen very often, but it only takes once. Then you have to think about profits and what not. Its going to take money to do prototypes and what not and I really dont see him making shit by offering them for 45 dollars, I actually see him loosing money. Even if he was making something, such a small amount of these would be ordered that by the time it was all said and done, he'd make back what he lost in prototypes. My father does alot of military work, medical parts, and does molds, panels, ribs, and DOT plugs for Bridgestone/Firestone and we have legal papyers stating that we are not held responsible for any design errors and what not. Turbojeff brought up the whole bridgestone ford thing and many vendors that did molds and stuff for the Wilderness series tires and got dragged in to the lawsuit and just about completly went out of business. So now think, how many people die in a tire blowout? How many people get into accidents from a tire blowout? Not that many, but it only took a few...

-Alex

it's all part of our "i'll sue your ass" mentality in America. If you make one that is lighter than the RB one since it is heavy as hell, I'll buy it, use it, and never think of suing you:).

Tim

Yeah i saw that but it kinda died..

To suggest that anyone should attempt, without due legal consideration, to market and sell a suspension device for a high-performance vehicle - using his employer's tooling - is a disservice and just plain bad advice.

Catastrophic failure w/ personal injury is just the most extreme example of many legal potentialities that are worth considering. I'm not a lawyer and neither is antiSUV. Lawyers are trained to know the law and recognize potential issues before they become a problem. Lawyers cost money. They make products more expensive.

In any case, given the very limited scale, apparent safety of the piece, and cooperative employer, it is admittedly unlikely anything with legal ramifications will occur.

That wasn't the original point, which was simply that consulting your lawyer and rolling those fees into the price of your product might be prudent.

What a bunch of crap. I guess that no one should ever produce anything because they might get sued. With a mentality like that, 1/2 the small businesses in the country would never have gotten off the ground. Its a suspension support that acts as a secondary backup to an already existing support. Maybe antiSUV should sue you for lost potential profits if he decides not to make them. I hope you have a good lawyer :D

Don't worry about the lawsuits, patents and any of the other legal crap people are talking about. No lawyer would go after you if you don't have any $$...

My comment to Art was pointing out that his experience was only one situation, it in no way makes a failing sway bar mount "safe".

I'm just saying that it simply COULD happen. What I was simply stating is that you should have it in writting that its for "off road use only" and so on. I don't know if you own your own business or not but with jobs that could potentially injure someone its smart to take precautions. It's simply stupid not to. This guy might not have shit so a lawsuit would be totally pointless but to simply run this guy into the ground, but his boss might. This product probably wouldnt effect the suspension enough to cause an accident if it did come off, but as it does come off you could run over it with the back tires and loose control. No where did I say he should'nt make this part nor anyone should make anything that could potentially be dangerous, just showing what can happen if you dont take the right precautions. I make parts day in and day out that could kill someone very easily if it was designed wrong and what not, and I damn well wouldn't do it if I would be held responsible for any design flaws. Nor do I think anyone else with half a brain would...

-Alex

It's no wonder I seldom come on here and make my experienced comments public knowledge, anymore.... The guy was simply asking if anyone had interest in a better, cheaper and lighter product than what we currently have available.....BUT yet again the thread has been hijacked and turned into a naysayers ball of wit!

My response is YES, I have interest and like Tim Benton, I would buy one and not sue!
Art

:repost:

With parts this may be true but you're trying to argue against market forces.

What we need is competition so that customer service will improve. A company should have to worry about keeping your business, not feel confident that they can lie to you and take their time with your order because thy are the only shop within a 500 miles radius! We as consumers allow it and excuse these practices because we don't want to piss off the companies and lose them as suppliers. It should work the other way. Hopefully this is one thing the RX8 can help fix.

maybe we should shut down this board because the operators of it might get sued if someone follows poor advice listed on here

quit being the typical fearful American

I think it would be a great product and would like to buy one myself. I was just pointing out I would look into it a little more and just simply talk with a lawyer and this guys boss. Other then that I think i'd make the price a lil higher just in case. I honostly just wouldn't want to see this guy get rapped into a whole mess. The only thing that I want to question is exactly what material its going to be made out of. I dont know what rb's is made out of but I would think they put some thought into their product to make it as light and strong as possible.

-Alex