That doesn't mean I got stupid, Jeff. :)

Note that I said aftermarket intercooler...

"but most aftermarket underhood intercoolers have the inlet and outlet at the top of the end tanks and it's not easy for the oil to make it across without falling to the bottom"

I would hope that at the power levels Rikki was running that he didn't have a stock intercooler.

I also agree that oil in the intake tract does not normally cause smoking because the quantities that make it to the engine, stock intercooler or not, are very small. Given the amount of oil he was adding, if it were making its way into the intake tract, he'd have an intercooler full of oil, and probably would have seen smoke because larger quantities of oil could possibly be making it to the engine. Until he dumps out the intercooler and finds all the missing oil, I'm not convinced that it went into the intake tract and from there into the engine.

It's been my experience (and correct me if I'm wrong Jeff, you're the king of rebuilding these cars) that oil seal failure in the turbos is usually on the turbine side, resulting in blue smoke as oil passes directly into the exhaust stream and burns in the downpipe. I've never heard of anyone having so much oil on the intake side that it caused smoke or blew the engine, but there are always new ways of doing things to be discovered. :)

let me try to understand..

Failing turbos = Blown motor???

Hmm interesting.. I would of thought that
failing turbos would make LESS boost, making
it less likely to blow a motor..

Personally I doubt it was the turbos that caused
your engine to fail.. but who knows..
anything is possible

I don't think it's the Turbo. I've seen failing turbos; I've seen leaking turbos. I've never seen leaking oil from a turbo sufficient to cause an apex seal to break w/o at least some kind of symptoms.

Hell, before Peter tuned your street port motor, you'd better recite the following prayer. Ray at Malloy is not going to be too happy with you coming back for a 3rd reman.



The prayer:

Our FARRELL who art in RX7 heaven,
Hallowed be thy name,
Thy Dyno Come, Thy Will Be Done in Manassas As it Will Be Done in RX7 heaven,
Give Us This Day Our Boost of 2 Bars
And forgive those Who Slander Our FARREL
And Lead Us Not into the Land of Monsen
But Deliver Us from the evils of Duff and Monsen

(I'm having too much fun with this PR campaign...)

Well to tell the truth I've only seen one set of bad turbos on all the cars I've dealt with. It was the intake side, I didn't do any more investigation than that, oil was smothering the stock IC and making it into the intake by the cup full.

I've heard that they do go bad on the exhaust side though, the oil doesn't ever see the combustion chamber:).

Based on my experience I wonder why so many people need turbo rebuilds.

I agree, no smoke and 1.5 qts of oil in 75 miles doesn't really add up, unless it was pouring out on the ground. But that doesn't really get it in the engine does it:).

Jeff

I'll second the diesel fuel burning slower and harder to ignite. The military uses it just about everywhere because of this very reason. They carry large quanities with them everywhere-why make it easy to blow up?

Ryan
A friend w/ a 951 used Simple Green to clean his IC. He basically soaked it for a few hours then blew it out w/ a hose. I didn't do it, and haven't seen him for a while, so I can't guarantee it worked long term. But it did get the oil out. Good luck!

I read from the big List a few years ago that the Air Force prohibited its maintainence personel from using simple green on aluminum due to some long term effect. However, IC don't fall out of the sky so take it with a grain of salt. I use S100 as they're designed for Aluminum on motorcycle.

they sure as hell do!!! i just got back from toting that shit around in the desert!!

think about this though guys. our air has a lot of pollutants in it. when it rains we have acid rain (well, more than we used to anyway). . . "why is that?" you ask yourself. when rain passes through the air it collects all the pollutants and brings them to the earth. i forget the word for this as i havent been in school for a while, but what if some oil made its merry little way to the intake of that sweet lil engine of yours. the oil would collect some of the fuel that is mixed and cake it up on the sides of the combustion chamber. . . that means that it will not burn. . . that means you have a lean condition. . . that means you have a blown motor. that all depends on whether the oil actually made it to your engine.

so you are saying even though I 3 pools of oil in the throttle body and it driped from the UIM it was not make'n its way to the Motor? I would say yes because what is supposed to stop it past these points?

who are you talking to ryan?

I dont recall you mentioning the oil in the tb or uim when we were trying to help you come up with ideas.

Is it possible that your motor isnt blown but rather just filled with oil causing it to not turn over? Have you actually done a compression test? What did it come back as?

STEPHEN

I'd like to add my thoughts if'n I may :)
Ryan, sorry to hear about the motor. It's a tough pill to swallow so my condolences.
As to why it happened *I think* :D it had nothing to do with oil. Period. I'd be willing to bet that if you decide to do a teardown there will be a apex seal failure resulting from detonatoin caused by a lean condition...duh. But why was the car lean? As someone mentioned tuning close to the edge on a dyno may get you good dyno numbers but things do change on the street/track. More airflow to the intake at speed, elevated ambient air temps, elevated intake temps from repeated "boosted" runs will lean out a mixture in a heartbeat. And don't think letting the car cooldown for 15-20 minutes will do it either. With a big IC like yours on a hot day like what we saw the day RXMidget had his schindig (wish i could have made it) I'd bet your intake air temps were up near 70C. Run the car for 2-3 minutes and let it sit and EVERYTHING heat soaks. Even if you have an IC fan it's gonna take a long time to cool things down again. But I digress, I add premix oil to my fuel ON PURPOSE for added seal lubrication. Yes I've seen oil in my intake tract both pre and post IC. It's normal. I've seen turbo's go bad on the track. A rotary ingesting large quantities of oil will not kill a healthy engine unless there is something else amiss. Case in point my friend Craig. Turbo oil seal let go...we think...but his engine was fine after this (watch the silver 3rd gen two cars ahead):
http://www.negative-camber.org/crisp...raigturbo.mpeg (8meg file)
With conservative tuning and an engine that was well cooled this instance was not a problem. I repeat, oil will NOT kill an engine by itself.
My suggestion, more conservative tuning, less boost if using the puny stock turbo's and be less of a hot dog when giving the girlies rides in your hot rod ;)
Regards,
Crispy

FRONT ROTOR @89.5PSI AND REAR ROTOR GAVE 0 PSI NOTHING AT ALL:( ON A REAL MAZDA COMPRESSION TESTER....

Thanx crispy for the kind words:)

Not to debate, but rather to pass on info. I asked Brian at M2 about the the whole premixing over 4 years ago. He stated he doesn't think its a good idea for the street sicne it lowers the octane of the fuel, making the chances of it knocking (pre-ignition), not being lean (not enough fuel), big difference. I don't know the specific properties of fuel and oil and their ability to be ignited, or what that octane rating would be when you mix them together, but Brian seems to think it lowers the octane, or raises the chances of preignition, so thats good enough for me. I think it was either preignition from the oil lowering the octane and it knocking, or it was to lean for the boost levels.

Tim

Good info Tim,
Preignition is heat related which could very well have been Ryans problem. Somoen please correct me if I'm wrong but preignition is simply the fuel/air mixture firing off before the spark ignites the mixture. Lower octane fuels have a greater chance of preigniting. Essentially preignition is the same as screwing up your timing and the results are HARD on an engine. Detonation could be preignition or it could be a hot spot somewhere in the engine that fires off the fuel/air mixture either locally or at the wrong time. A mini explosion per sae. Both can destroy an apex seal easily. Detonation can therefore be linked to engine temperature and air intake temperature - or too much boost ;) So either way, by a lowered octane rating or by an overly hot engine the damage is the same. I am by no means a petroleum expert but I too have heard that adding premix lowers the octane rating of fuel. However, as is always the case in moderation it's fine. I premix 4oz/tank on the street and 8oz/tank on the track with 100octane. A conservatively tuned car should be able to handle the very small drop in octane rating from the added premix both on the street and on the track without any trouble. As in Ryans case I would profer that the tuning was not quite conservative enough given the small amount of oil injested and the near 100degF ambient temps that day.
Regards,
Crispy

I dont see a 4oz bottle of premix being enough to lower octane level when you have around 15gallons of fuel.

There are alot of factors here.

Lean a/f ratio
very hot and humid day
oil leak getting into the IC pipes and motor
high boost levels (borderline) with stock fuel injection
possible borderline plugs (really though you plugs are prob ruined from the detonation, if they were that bad to begin with you would have got terrible missing at high rpms)


Ok, I have a question. Lets say its from the oil mixing with your a/f mixture causing the problem. Under that type of condition wouldn't it more than likely have shown up in both housings??? If it was from the oil I would think it would be both housings that would go instead of the usual rear only.

Its interesting that you have no compression at all on the rear rotor, not even one face. You blew the crap outa that bad boy.....like i always say, if you going to do it, do it right haha

STEPHEN

sorry double post

Premixing- Not a good idea.

I work with injectors all day long. They're not designed to work with oil mixed with fuel. The electrical coils are designed to resist fuel but not really oil.

The way to go is to buy the OMP adapter that Atkins rotary sell and install a 2-cycle gravity fed tank.

Good info Tim and SP.

Thanx

pomanferrari,
First time I have ever heard anyone suggest this.
Your theoretical explanation definitely sounds plausible but empirical evidence and decades of race and track testing don't bear this hypothosis out. The amount of oil in the fuel possibly isn't anywhere close to affecting the performance of the injectors by lowering the resistivity of the fuel/oil mix in the ratios I was mentioning. As for adding yet another "tank" to my car, no thanks. I'll stick to adding premix.
Regards,
Crispy

crispy Hows about a grammer lesson? :rofl:
that is some kick ass spelling:bigthumb:

Crispy

You might be right. At least the engineers told me that they don't do durability testing against a fuel-oil mixture. And race/track testing is a completely different animal from stop-go-idle real world testing.
You replace injectors after X amount of hours- why risk a race on a $100 part? This type of testing is something completely from street testing.

My injectors leaked at 62K. Not sure if it's from the Protek which I used for a year but the injector leaked through the body, i.e. it could not be repaired. I still have it. One day I'll cut it open and see what ruined it. So, just to be safe I've stopped using Protek ever since.

The reason I liked the idea of a separate tank is to be able to run synthetic. Anyway, I used to have a 2-stroke motorcycle when I was young and stupid (Luckily, now I'm just stupid) so it's not a big deal to carry a 16 oz bottle of hi-perf Yamalube around.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................................
hypothosis=hypothEsis:D

LOL you guys crack me up..You have no idea how bad my spelling can get when I get on a roll. BTW it's my henpeck typing that is the problem not my spelling ability :)

Pomanferrari,
Agree entirely. I wonder about injector lubricant one see's sold in many an automotive store. I've seen injectors leak without using premix so it'd be hard to prove a root cause attributable to the use of premix in the fuel. I've been using Amsoil 2 stroke premix on the street and track for neigh on 4 years now. But in any case the ability to run synthetic in the pan while still adding two stroke premix form a dedicated tank is definitely the optimal solution if not a bit cumbersome for a street car. Just remember to keep the tank full eh ;)
Regards,
Crispy