OMP Declassified
There has, in the past, been a lot of conjecture on how the OMP / MOP pump operates so I thought I would take everyone through it. Hope this will help some.
Reference the picture at bottom: The Parts and what they do:
https://www.rx7club.com/picture.php?...ictureid=21866 |
Nice work! I've always wondered how that sucker works. Makes much more sense when it's apart :).
Thanks! Dale |
You say it is NOT a pump. I run the RA OMP adapter. The pressure to feed the OMP is ambient with 6 inch of head. How is the oil being injected into the engine if the OMP is not pumping?
Originally Posted by ttmott
(Post 9870018)
There has, in the past, been a lot of conjecture on how the OMP / MOP pump operates so I thought I would take everyone through it. Hope this will help some.
Reference the picture at bottom: The Parts and what they do:
https://www.rx7club.com/picture.php?...ictureid=21866 |
Answer:
Originally Posted by ttmott
(Post 9870018)
the oil pressure to feed the system comes from the engine oil pump and is fed through a port next to the OMP worm drive gear shaft.
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Originally Posted by pomanferrari
(Post 9870417)
You say it is NOT a pump. I run the RA OMP adapter. The pressure to feed the OMP is ambient with 6 inch of head. How is the oil being injected into the engine if the OMP is not pumping?
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This raises an interesting question as to how the OMP oils the engine while under boost. The foregoing discussion suggests the OMP needs a source of oil under pressure, which will be true unless the OMP also functions as a positive displacement pump.
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There were some significant errors in what I stated on the operation of the OMP. After I hastily wrote the original thread entry I mocked up the OMP and ran it on the bench with oil revealing that it does pump oil. I apologies for this and have provided the necessary corrections below:
The Parts and what they do:
https://www.rx7club.com/picture.php?...ictureid=21866 |
interesting!
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Originally Posted by ttmott
(Post 9870699)
...
The OMP is an oil pump; the engine oil is gravity fed into the OMP through the engine front cover. The up and down movement of the Sector Valve causes a pumping action between the Sector Valve and Sector Valve Needle. The sequence of rotational position in relation of the up and down movement and the location of the oil inlet and discharge ports is the pumping action. Dave |
Have you ever heard of No Child Left Behind? Apparently not because you must have been one of those who were left behind. The whole point is to:
(a) read (b) think (c) and test out part (b). It is not to accept things at face value. In fact, look at the original poster, he has now revised his post to indicate that the OMP is a "pump".
Originally Posted by TSXtasy
(Post 9870479)
Answer:
just read the post :) |
Excellent write up. Sometimes the best way to learn about something is to tear it apart
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Originally Posted by arghx
(Post 9871357)
Excellent write up. Sometimes the best way to learn about something is to tear it apart
--Or sometimes the best way to learn about something is to teach it. (This according to a UCSD prof that once worked for me, and which I have found to be true in practice.) |
Originally Posted by Speed of light
(Post 9871380)
^^^Agreed.
--Or sometimes the best way to learn about something is to teach it. (This according to a UCSD prof that once worked for me, and which I have found to be true in practice.) |
I rather learn like the wiseman, who learns from the fools mistakes.
So go ahead and break yours. :lol: |
I thought I'd post this chart from a dyno run here in this thread.
This is a chart of OMP "Oil" data as reported by a PFC. It is a 3rd gear pull on a '94 FD with sequential twins, using only its original OMP for apex seal lubrication. RPM, manifold pressure, TPS voltage, and OMP "Oil" value are shown. TPS and OMP were carefully scaled in the chart to represent their achievable minimum and maximum values. https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1291533483 I am unsure what the units for "Oil" really are. They may be related to the OMP position sensor voltage. The lowest value I have seen is 14 (mostly at idle and very low rpm/throttle/load) and the highest value I have seen is 120 at about 8000rpm. It may work out that the Oil value is 0 - 120 with 0 being completely closed (least amount of flow mechanically possible) and 120 being full open. You can see that above all else the oil delivery is based on rpm and manifold pressure. On the series 5 FC3S oil delivery was based on rpm and engine airflow as measured by a vane airflow meter. |
I'm wondering... externally the 94 FD pump and 20b cosmo pump look identical aside from a line coming out of one of the fittings (normally a blank on the 13b). There is a 4th fitting on there as well ;) maybe mazda was thinking ahead a little :D . Anyone have info on how the pump distributes the oil? Does it individually meter it for each rotor line, or does it just dump X amount of oil and assume each rotor will take an equivalant amount? If thats the case, then the pumps would be identical, just the software would multiply the total metered output by 3 (or 4 in the case of using all available ports ;) )
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Originally Posted by arghx
(Post 10351945)
I thought I'd post this chart from a dyno run here in this thread.
This is a chart of OMP "Oil" data as reported by a PFC. It is a 3rd gear pull on a '94 FD with sequential twins, using only its original OMP for apex seal lubrication. RPM, manifold pressure, TPS voltage, and OMP "Oil" value are shown. TPS and OMP were carefully scaled in the chart to represent their achievable minimum and maximum values. https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1291533483 I am unsure what the units for "Oil" really are. They may be related to the OMP position sensor voltage. The lowest value I have seen is 14 (mostly at idle and very low rpm/throttle/load) and the highest value I have seen is 120 at about 8000rpm. It may work out that the Oil value is 0 - 120 with 0 being completely closed (least amount of flow mechanically possible) and 120 being full open. You can see that above all else the oil delivery is based on rpm and manifold pressure. On the series 5 FC3S oil delivery was based on rpm and engine airflow as measured by a vane airflow meter. |
I was not logging sensor/sw on this log so I don't have that data (otherwise I would have compared that myself). I don't normally do so unless I'm specifically looking for something. This is to keep the sample rate up.
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Here is some data both measured and extrapolated. The extrapolated data is beyond the capability of the OMP's potentiometer. Note I put 0-100% related to the pot's full stroke. Also note that the first and last zones of the potentiometer's range there is no change in pump stroke; INTERESTING the pump variance is from 20% to 80% of the pot's range. This is why I was curious about the VMOP related to the count. Now in the data I have collected during tuning sessions I have seen 1.14V at low loads to 4.06V at high loads on VMOP; there is a slight difference in calculated voltages and measured voltages but they align quite well.
http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1292467843 |
The dual resistor design is common on position sensors. On drive-by-wire systems, accelerator pedal position sensors and throttle plate position sensors use that design. Your testing makes sense. More VMOP = more oil essentially.
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Where I'm trying to go with this is to determine if a time offset between the "count" and VMOP voltage reading exists. This will tell us that the "count" is the command from the ECU and the VMOP is the reacted position. So I'm thinking the count may be the stepper motor sequencing through the range of movement. The stepper motor looks to be a four pole design (six wires) and if half steps are utilized there will be a count of eight per motor revolution. I could count the gear ratio of my mikuni pump to get a total revolution count for the motor - open to close. So, in your observation a count of 14 to 120 may be the 20% to 80% range the pump changes oil flow. May want to review this site for stepper motor 101..
http://www.imagesco.com/articles/picstepper/02.html As a side note the oil flow never completely turns off; as long as the E-Shaft turns the OMP will provide oil. |
Originally Posted by ttmott
(Post 10369626)
Where I'm trying to go with this is to determine if a time offset between the "count" and VMOP voltage reading exists. This will tell us that the "count" is the command from the ECU and the VMOP is the reacted position.
So I'm thinking the count may be the stepper motor sequencing through the range of movement. The stepper motor looks to be a four pole design (six wires) and if half steps are utilized there will be a count of eight per motor revolution. I could count the gear ratio of my mikuni pump to get a total revolution count for the motor - open to close. So, in your observation a count of 14 to 120 may be the 20% to 80% range the pump changes oil flow. May want to review this site for stepper motor 101.. http://www.imagesco.com/articles/picstepper/02.html As a side note the oil flow never completely turns off; as long as the E-Shaft turns the OMP will provide oil. |
OK, here is the best I can do from some of the files I have. I don't think the time hacks in the PFC lend enough resolution to really tell if OIL Leads VMOP. I multiplied VMOP times 20 so the curves were comparable. What are your thoughts???
http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1292541070 |
the problem is that "sensors" and "advance" are sampled at different times. I just remembered that. I would say that it is inconclusive at this point.
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Possible the sampling is at the same time but processing and logging is offset. Consider the following chart; One RPM log is from the Basic listing and the other is from the Advanced. For a given time hack in the data stream the RPM are different. When plotted there is an offset of about 0.024 seconds. This appears consistent in increasing and decreasing trends. The Advanced logging appears to be lagging. If consistent between the basic and advanced sensor logging the "OIL" is occuring about 0.024 seconds earlier than the log times. Regardless, this is still not proven by test. The only real way to validate this is to put a scope on the ECU which is beyond what I can do at this time.
http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1292686328 Now in the following plot I have normalized the two (VMOP and OIL) amplitudes but the data occurence has not changed. There is basically the same offset seen in the two RPM comparisons. I would submit that OIL and VMOP are the same but only displayed differently. http://i1012.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1292687422 |
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