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**Reposting here -- accidentally posted in "General Discussion" via mobile.
Okay... I attempted the dreaded oil pan reseal, and, despite my best efforts, it didn't seem to work. Looking for some advice from this forum as to where I went wrong, or what I can do on my next attempt. The continued leak appears to be coming from the back of the pan and/or the engine mount bolt holes...
Here's what I did:
Lifted the engine;
Removed the subframe;
Removed the oil pan (after disconnecting the oil level sensor and moving the turbo actuator);
Cleaned both the pan and the block with a wire brush and carb cleaner until I could eat off it;
Cleaned the engine block bolt holes with a M6 X 1.0 tap and various picks (I'll admit here that I couldn't get all the old sealant out, but I got most of it);
Installed the Banzai oil pan studs;
Put a generous amount of loctite 5900 on the engine block and around the motor mount bolt holes;
Installed the pan and the Banzai brace;
Torqued all pan bolts to spec (95 in-lb);
Installed motor mounts and torqued to spec;
Let cure for one week;
Added oil;
Watched for leaks; and
Got disappointed when I found one.
As noted above, the leak appears to be from the back of the pan and/or around the motor mounts. Could there be something else causing this? I feel like I was pretty thorough here. I'd appreciate any insight or suggestions.
Your process seems correct. The only variables I can think of is your tightening sequence and if the flange on your oil pan is flat. Those two things, regardless of what you do, can cause the pan to leak. Did you tighten the hardware in stages and in a criss cross order? Are you 100% confident that the rear flange on your oil pan is flat? I don't know about the loctite but with the permatex, you have to wait 1 hour before applying spec torque. As in, you apply it, seat the hardware, wait one hour, THEN torque to spec. It's almost like a pre-cure. As much as it sucks, I would say do it over but inspect your pan for flatness or get another pan or try another technique for tightening......... or just live with it if it's not that bad.
Thanks. I'll admit that I probably slacked off on the star pattern when torquing it down.
On the tightening, I've seen mixed advice on the forum about waiting before tightening. Waiting an hour intuitively made more sense to me, but my searching suggested a majority view of immediate torque.
As for sealant, or seems like Permatex changed their formula, so I went by the recommendation here:
Sealing oil pans is black magic voodoo, it's REALLY hard sometimes to get one to seal up right.
One thing that can help a great deal is a new oil pan. Used pans many times have minor bends in the lip from being pried off the car previously and you can never get them properly flat again. New pans are pricey for what they are but aren't too bad, like $100ish if memory serves.
One problem with doing the job in the car is sometimes residual oil will keep seeping out of the engine and down onto the surface that you're sealing on. That's why I like doing it on an engine stand with the engine upside-down. Not to mention access is SO much easier.
I torqued mine immediately in 3 stages to 8 lb-ft. I don't remember doing the "star" pattern. You probably saw the link to the thread I posted in your previous thread.
I used permatex motoseal (high temp, resistant to oil, gas, coolant, etc) for the font cover and pan but it's on a stand and wont run for a while so don't know the results.
So, I pulled the pan again tonight. Definitely leaking at the rear -- the pan lip was covered in oil. Did not expect that. Looks like I'll be ordering a new pan. The existing pan seems fine, but I'd rather eliminate that variable. I'm also planning to loosely tighten the pan, wait an hour or so, and then torque it to spec. I also noticed when I pulled it out tonight, that some of the nuts appeared looser than I left them. So, I'll keep checking the torque specs on these guys for a day or so after re-install.
Thanks all for your help and wisdom. I never thought I would be able to do this stuff myself!
Anything else I should be thinking about doing differently?
Another thing I thought of just now - place the sealant in the form of a ~1/8 - 3/16" diameter bead. Surround all bolt holes. Do not smooth it out with your finger, etc. The thick bead allows the sealant to compensate for any irregularities or minor bends and still seal. If you flatten it too much it may not be thick enough to contact both surfaces in all locations.
Wonder if Bacon's oil pan with the oring will solve this leak issues. Sure, its way more expensive than a new pan, but if it solves the oil leak issues...
I like the Bacon oil pan but it's not for everyone. I don't think it has a provision for the oil level sensor which IMHO is a must-have. It's saved my motor on my FC back in the day when an oil cooler line failed.
Looking again at my pan, it's fairly straight and true. Laid it on a panel of glass and didn't see any major irregularities that can't be smoothed over.
When I laid the bead of sealant, I did it about 3/8-1/4 inch all inside the bolt holes (and around the motor mounts). I like the idea of two thinner beads on both sides of the holes and torquing a bit slower. I'll also use brake cleaner instead of carb cleaner. That'll be Approach 2.
I had not heard of the bacon brace, but I really don't like the idea of losing the oil level sensor (in fact, just replaced it with a new one n
KeepKeep the wisdom/ideas coming (short of removing the engine!)... I'll let you all know how it goes.
The Bacon pan flange is thicker than a OE pan + brace IIRC. So that is a problem if you are running the stock motor mounts, the motor will be sitting much higher (?).
I was going to try a reseal on my pan over the holidays but I chickened out...didn't want to hassle with having my OE mount arms milled to compensate for the brace. I tell myself that it is really just seeping right now...
A new oil pan is available from Mazda and not that expensive. I'm in the same boat as you (banzai brace and still leaky) and have a new pan on the way. I'll let you guys know how it works out. My old pan was definitely a little bent though.
lol I'm not gonna show you the pics of the RTV nightmare on the old pan from trying to get it to seal. Lets just say that an extra thick bead of sealant doesn't work too well.
I have never used that Loctite product, it should work from the description. I have used Permatex Ultra Black for years and have not had any issues.
Even with a lift, resealing the oil pan is a huge PIA. I would not even do it if I had to do it from jack stands. Getting the pan over the pickup tube with the subframe in way is not a lot of fun. There are plenty of pictures floating around of engines with a half a tube of RTV caked on the rear of the engine.
Last edited by Banzai-Racing; 01-31-18 at 03:27 PM.
New pan is key. The stock pans are so thin that they always bend and promote leaks. I had good luck with permatex ultra black for years but recently have had better results with locktite 5900. Motoseal won't work. Its too runny and doesn't completely harden.
Thanks. I've got a new pan coming today from Ray. My old one was fairly straight, but sticking it on a straight edge all around, I noticed some almost imperceptible bending at the rear. Seeing as that's where the leak was most prominent, I thought it good insurance to just get the new pan.
Also, the pan has been off for a few days, and I've gotten some residual drips. It seems fully empty now, but I'm guessing it's probably best practice to -- when doing this with the engine is in the car -- wait several days for the oil to fully drain. The block is, like, hyper-clean now.
I'm mentally preparing myself for the reseal tonight. I'll let it cure for a few days and report back.
Thanks again for everyone's input. Just a couple months ago, I'd not have dreamed I could be doing this myself.
I have never used that Loctite product, it should work from the description. I have used Permatex Ultra Black for years and have not had any issues.
Even with a lift, resealing the oil pan is a huge PIA. I would not even do it if I had to do it from jack stands. Getting the pan over the pickup tube with the subframe in way is not a lot of fun. There are plenty of pictures floating around of engines with a half a tube of RTV caked on the rear of the engine.
I did it with the car on stands. From the thread I linked:
Here's an additional subframe option:
To eliminate any alignment change, unbolt only the rear two subframe bolts and pry the subframe down about 1/4." It is flexible enough to do that, and that gave me the clearance I needed to get the pan out.
I also pulled off the turbo actuator to get more room.
1) I dimpled the pan (with a center punch) only, and made sure the areas around each bolt hole were well-dimpled. That will help lock the pan in place as the raised dimples dig into the aluminum sections of the block. I did not dimple the block.
2) I applied the sealer to the block to avoid scraping it off while getting the pan in place.
3) I attached motor-mounts and torqued the mount bolts while the silicone (no gasket) was still uncured. If you wait until the silicone is cured before torquing these, then the mounts are bolted in place with a layer of silicone between the pan and the block. This will lead to the motor mount bolts working loose, the same as what happens with a gasket in between.
Notes:
Make a couple of ~3/4" long threaded rods, and, after applying the silicone sealant to the block, screw the rods into two of the holes in the bottom of the block near the front (I used two holes in the steel sections) and leave about 1/2" protruding. This will help guide the pan into the proper position while you are starting the bolts and hopefully prevent screwing up the bead of sealant that you just applied. Obviously, remove these rods and replace them with the last 2 bolts after the rest of the bolts are in place.
I used 1/4" hardened SAE washers under the bolt heads to spread the load and get good pan pressure so the dimples would be pressed firmly into the block. I also prepared for putting in the bolts by placing them head down (with the hardened washers in place) on reversed duct-tape wrapped around a piece of wood so I could grab them and install them with a minimum of fumbling. I then torqued the bolts in 3 stages to 8 ft-lbs.
Soooo..... I did it! Resealed with nary a drop after 24 hours! I went with the parallel beads of sealant (see pic), but I think my original issue was just a failure to appropriately torque the nuts. That said, by running slightly thinner parallel lines, I think I was able to better insure complete coverage. I also went with a new pan from Ray. Once I got it, I compared it with my existing pan, and I'm now pretty sure my old pan was fine. I used the new one anyway, because, why not?
I also want to put in a serious plug the Banzai brace kit. This is an excellent product, well thought out and nicely packaged! I think it will make a world of improvement on resiliency down there.
For posterity, attached is a pic of the parallel sealant on the block just prior to me sealing the pan into place. It's not pretty by any stretch, but it seems to have worked.
Thanks to everyone on here for their generous help! Sealing oil pan
Stuck with the Loctite 5900. I had bought 2 tubes because I didn't know how much I'd need. For future reference a single 50ml tube was enough for me (with a bit left over), although I was panicking at the time of application that I was going to run out!
01-30-18, 12:18 AM
Oil pan reseal with brace ... Still leaks. :(
I'm in the same boat as you (banzai brace and still leaky) and have a new pan on the way. I'll let you guys know how it works out. My old pan was definitely a little bent though.
