OEM Brakes for Track use?
 

I'm planning on running my FD pretty much on the track only.

Are the OEM brakes up to the task of hard track driving? I already bought EBC yellowstuff front and rear and will build something for brake cooling (btw., any ideas for that?).

Its an 1994 Type R with the standard 294mm (?) discs.

Short powergoal is 280-320 hp.

we have found that if you have really sticky tires, and not a lot of power, the brakes live an easier life. basically your straightaway speed stays the same, but cornering speeds go up, so you need fewer brakes.

I plan on running semi slicks (Toyo R888, Bridgestone RE55 and Pirelli and Pirelli Trofeo in 245/45 R18), are those considered realy sticky?

On my last track car, which was painfully slow on the straight (Ford Probe 24V) I had a K-Sport 356mm BBK from the start, so I have zero experience with OEM brakes..

I have run HP+ pads on OEM calipers for the past few track seasons on a 330whp setup and have not run out of brake

A good brake bleed with some high-temp brake fluid, and working your brake points up throughout the day as you gain confidence in your setup will keep you golden

They'll work, but you'll go through rotors faster.

I took my single-turbo car (currently making around that much power I think) on r-comps with race pads, stainless lines, and stock standard-size rotors to the track and it was perfect. Not even a hint of fade.

That said,

-My car weighs 2450 pounds

-I don't have backing plates

-My front bumper has big oil cooler/brake cooling ducts


So I don't have to brake very hard to stop and my front brakes get plenty of air (probably).

Semi slicks are the definition of sticky.

I have a Probe 24V (1995, wife's car actually) and my FD.

While the Probe handles quite reasonably nimble for a FWD car (embarrasses a lot of higher powered cars), the 165hp V6 isn't able to propel it at the same sort of urgency that even a stock FD is capable of. (The weight distribution of V6 engine over the front of the car is awful too) And the steering gets a bit vague, and tends to snap oversteer on liftoff throttle... The Probe chassis is soggy and flexy (ever jacked up one end of a Probe and find the doors don't open/close properly? :lol:)
FD OEM brakes would be an upgrade to the pedestrian stock single piston Probe brakes.

Both the Probe & FD having similar curb weights from memory.
The FD brakes are good at stock weight and power levels, but need a good track pad or you will smell brakes quite quickly.

The stock FD rotors are very high quality, and tuning companies like FEED and Scoot in Japan actually leave the OEM rotors on the cars, citing the fact they are pretty durable and made to better tolerances than a lot of the cheaper aftermarket non OEM rotors.

You should be fine at your power level. I have done several track events at a similar power level with Hawk DTC-60 pads and Ti shims with no fade. Also running Yoko A048's.

@SA3R: Well thats funny. :D I had my Probe for 12 years and tracked it from 2008 onwards when selling it in may this year. Quiet an unhappy moment I have to say though. The car was very far away from standard at the end, custom cage, KW Competition coilovers, K-Sport Big Brake kit and so on, I absolutely know what you are talking about when mentioning all the problems the car has. But that said, at the end I was able to embarrass quiet capable cars on the track, at least in the corners.. :lol:


But I get carried away a little bit here. What would be a good track pad? Anyone got experience with the EBC YellowStuff? I used them in my Probe and was quiet happy with them, but with half the power and the helplessly oversized big brake thats no wonder I guess..


Is it wise to leave the backing plates off the car? I was thinking of modding them to guide air to the rotors via a hose from the front..


What are Ti shims?


Thanks for all the answers!

This is the quick/easy answer you're looking for. Use quality track pads (not EBC they have crap feel) and good fluid and you'll be fine to start tracking. The downside is that you'll go thru consumables like rotors much quicker than a comparable BBK.

I'm using cryogenic treated rotors. Don't have enough time to determine if they are worth twice a plain rotor tho

Cryogenic Treated Rotors

As for pads, am really liking the Hawk DTCs :icon_tup:

Titanium shims are supposed to help block heat from getting to the pistons and brake fluid. I have hard brake shims installed and can't really determine if there's much of an advantage. Last full season I ran I melted my piston dust boots which I think is pretty common on tracked cars. One thing I did not like was the rear shims did not seem to fit my DTC-30's well and I had to ream the alignment hole to get them to fit.

https://hardbrakes.com/

not to get too off topic, but one of our friends is racing an Mx-6, and we beat him for the lap record, but only by like a tenth of a second. that thing is quick!

the engine is bulletproof too

Assuming you use a real track pad, and at those power levels, the stock brakes will get you through the learning period. After that it will be obvious to you and your pads and rotors that you are running the brakes too hot.

Raybestos ST-47 pads are the best high-coefficient pads I've found for extreme temperature. High coefficient helps to keep a high pedal, making heel and toe possible. You should adjust your brake pedal so it is as high as possible, and IR Performance's master cylinder brace is an excellent upgrade that also helps keep a high pedal.

If you contact me in about two months, I will have an excellent home-made BBK for sale that might be right for you. It uses Wilwood calipers that accept .8" thick stock-car pads, and 12.6" rotors from a stock Ford (so they are cheap). And it is within 1% of the stock front/rear bias so you don't give up the braking distance as with most commercial BBKs. And I see you don't need it, but they fit under 16" wheels.

@j9fd3s: Seriously? But not in a NA configuration!?
But the platform is cornering- wise surprisingly potent. For example, the track width is bigger than the FDs one, in fact by 50mm! I had GT3s in front of me, that where definitley at least near the limit (wiggling rear) but couldn't really depart from me.
But on the straight thats another story, and that was the reason I decided to move forward with my childhood dreamcar. :)

Sticky tires are much harder on brakes. Anything that makes you faster is harder on brakes. Street tires are not very hard on brakes because you go slow, you brake slow etc...etc...

Don't forget that the faster you exit the faster you go down the straight. 10 or even 5 mph faster is a huge difference when slowing from 130 plus down to 50. Entering the corner at 60 versus 50 isn't helping your brakes much. It's the top side that eats your brakes not the bottom.

All that said. The stock brakes are fine on stock size wheels and tires whether you run slicks or street tires.

Cryogenic rotors are a joke

Important thing to note is rotating weight vs grip.

You will be soooo much better of with light weight wheels and small slicks versus big fat wheels on street tires. Grip may be equal but the rotating weight will really hurt the brakes.

I currently track my car on stock size brakes. After my first track event, I wore my pads out until they were squeezing hard on the way home. I then dropped some coin on redoing my entire brake system which included rebuilding all four calipers with OEM kits, new OEM brake hardware, Endless MX72 pads, Centric front and rear flat OEM style brake rotors, Endless brake fluid, SBG stainless braided lines, and the IRP master cylinder brace. The MX72 pads are a mythical creature. I've done two tracks days on them and a few thousand daily miles on them and they have a TON of life left on them still. They make zero noise, they dust about as much as a standard pad but these things will bring your car to a STOP. I'm currently at stock power levels with a downpipe on Ohlins and I just mounted some RE-11's to stock wheels. I don't experience any brake fade or any inconsistencies in my brakes. I have 100% utter confidence in them. At higher power levels I can imagine eventually moving up to a BBK, but the stock brakes are very good for stock powers pushing the limits.

Matt

Curious, do you have experience with them?

If they don't last at least twice as long, then they aren't worth it since they are twice as expensive

Have to say at ~$50ish a disk, OEM rotors aren't that expensive of a consumable item

+1

It's really basic physics. I would add that the horizontal momentum of the car is acting on the rotating mass so lessening that force is just as (if not more) important than reducing the rotating mass

Just get some DTC-60s or Carbotech XP-10 pads and you'll be fine. The stock brake system on this car is actually adequate unlike a lot of other cars...

i have even tracked with 285 re-11s and hawk HP+ pads and didn't get any fade. Granted, I'm not the fastest driver, but still relying on the brakes :)

and youre going to need high temp fluid. I use motul rbf600.

YEP. Street tires even fat ones don't require brakes.

I've seen your videos. Put on some slicks and you'll be one of the fast guys but you will also need brakes LOL :nod:

PS There's a saying "brakes don't stop cars tires do"

^a compliment from fritz!!!!!! I gonna write this down.

Love the KL, not so much the rest of the car haha. My brother thought the same thing and wound up with this:

https://lifewithjson.files.wordpress...g?w=1200&h=800

To be honest, the stock FD comes with Miata-Sized rotors... they're both 22mm thick and relatively close to the same diameter. In 1999 when the RS/RZ versions got a mild power bump from 255 -> 280HP they went from a 22mm to 32mm rotor with a massive air gap.

All of our brake kits are 32mm thick, and the weight is within a pound of the stock brakes (Wilwood is 1lb lighter, and AP is one pound heavier due to the increased vane count). The stock brake air gap is really small, and there's lots of wasted weight in the hat, which in a 2-piece brake kit can be put to use for heat holding and shedding capacity, instead of just a heavy hat. All of our racing calipers (Wilwood and AP feature cheap and thick (20mm thick!) pads which provide thermal insulation between the caliper and rotor. There are lots of advantages which I could get into, but suffice to say the stock brakes are not what I would feel comfortable bombing a track on (unless your plan is simply to not brake on track ;) ).

SBG Wilwood 325x32mm - Wilwood Track-Day Brake System (FD3S RX-7) - SakeBomb Garage LLC
SBG AP Racing 325x32mm floating - AP Competition Brake System (FD3S RX-7) - SakeBomb Garage LLC
SBG Competition Rear - SBG Competition Rear Brake System (FD3S RX-7) - SakeBomb Garage LLC

Obviously we sell pads and rotors just like everyone else, but even Mazda didn't feel comfortable with 22mm rotors on an FD at 280 FLYWHEEL HP. Most of us are making WAY more than that here. They even increased the size of the Miata rotors over the years as well... as tire compounds have gotten better the need for brakes has dramatically increased. We don't have 1993 tires (or power) any longer guys... it's no longer apples to apples

http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server52...0.1280.jpg?c=2

http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server52...0.1280.JPG?c=2

If you actually drive your car hard, these pay for themselves in very little time in pad life, rotor life, etc... and the Wilwood version is VERY affordable for what it is.