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Help: proper way to remove power steering
so im about to attempt to remove the power steering the propwer way ad im gonig by this thread https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-gen-archive-72/how-de-power-your-steering-rack-right-way-440198/
now the first step removing the adjuster cover.... for the 93's its like a HUGE allen key size... does anyone know what size it is? or is there a special tool/other way to unscrew it?:scratch: |
2 Attachment(s)
this is the screw/bolt/nut im talking about
Attachment 721975 also the thread talks about spinning the retaining ring counter clockwise... im assuming spin the silver disk? what should i use to spin it? Attachment 721976 and YES, i do wear pink crocs to work on my car. |
pink Crocs? I'm not sure exactly what tool you'd use for the adjustment cover. I'd wager you could find it at harbor freight though. They have a bunch of weird tools.
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rule one grab 6pack, rule two curse like a sailor. and last but not least rubber mallet should do the trick just right. LOL
but to be serious id call Ray or a mazda dealer ship to find out what tool, also if you search i believe someone posted the entire FD shop manual i have it but lost the link |
For the giant allen key, you will need a giant adjustable wrench. There is a locking nut around the allen key. Once you remove it, the allen key bolt is only finger tight.
For the PS side you will need to remove the rubber boot. I already had the quill removed so i just pushed the shaft to the other side so it wasnt sticking out on the PS side. There are two grooves u can put a flat head screw driver in and turn it. It is not really tight or anything so it shouldnt require tons of effort. As you spin it, you will see a break in the lock ring through that hole in the top. Just pop in to the outside of the rack and keep spinning till it comes all the way out. Then the silver cap with come out the end and the shaft is free to slide out also. I just did a manual conversion on my rack about 2 months ago. Just pm me if you have any more questions, it is still fresh in my mind. The following link will help also. https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...=steering+rack -Austin |
thanks^^ just to verify anyone who plans to do this.. a BIG adjustable is correct. i bout the 12" one and its still too small....
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To remove the huge hex cover, the head of a 1/2x13 bolt (snagged a grade 8 one from lowe's) fit perfectly. You just put the head of the bolt in the hex, put two nuts on the bolt, and then crank on the nut closer to the bolt head. It took some serious muscle, but it gave before the bolt did. This way you don't have to weld a fakey SST.
This is from: https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/fd-power-steering-full-manual-conversion-write-up-631992/#post9323333 For the retaining wire, I ran the rack all the way to the other side and spun the rack stop with a piece of flat stock in the notches. |
PLEASE HELP ASAP
i broke the lock clip... can i get that at autozone or a generic parts store of will i have to get it from mazda? alsooo can i get generic boot covers for the tie rods? or will i have to get that from mazda too? |
BUMP, help please! i need to get the car finished by thursday!!!
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The boot covers are basically a rebuild kit you can get from Ray IIRC. It's been several years since I did mine and I can't remember anything in particular that was an issue. That large nut was just that, just a nut. No locking anything, but I can't remember any more.
Also, that link has nothing for pics. The Miata rack is very similar and used that for my guide.. http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/depower.php?x=1 Which clip are you referring to? Are you referring to the ring clip that holds the end in? I think you can get that from Ray as well. |
Here is the result of not installing power steering fully lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QU44xxk5dw |
Originally Posted by muibubbles
(Post 9872730)
PLEASE HELP ASAP
i broke the lock clip... can i get that at autozone or a generic parts store of will i have to get it from mazda? alsooo can i get generic boot covers for the tie rods? or will i have to get that from mazda too? I still don't know why people insist on de-powering a power steering rack. I worked for a Tier 1 Auto Supplier for 2 summers as an intern in power steering, and spoke with the guys that design all of Ford's R&P and recirculating ball nut (like the FB has) steering gears about de-powering a PS rack.. Basically, you're relying on the torsion bar, which is the part that runs from where your input shaft attaches to your housing, down to the pinion. All power rack and pinion torsion bars are case hardened, not through hardened, and are not suitable for steering your car. Their only purpose is to give you "steering feel", which is also determined by the pressure on the bushing that is held in by the nut you're trying to remove, along with the way the rack is mounted to the car (spikes to a rubber-isolated subframe, or bolts through rubber-isolated mounts). What actually moves the rack side to side is the power steering fluid, which passes through a valve, which is actuated by the torsion bar. It is unsafe to de-power a rack originally designed for power steering. Yes, people have run "depowered" racks for years and have had no issues, but it's not worth the chance of a serious wreck, IMO. Since you modified the part yourself, you're liable for anything that happens to you, your passenger, or anyone you hit because of a steering failure. There is a post I put up summer 2006 or 2007 about the dangers of de-powering your rack, but I'm tired, it's late, and I don't have the patience to look through my old posts and find it. |
yes most of your are correct on the ring clip... im just gonna have to modify a wire thats thick enough.. i called ray and he would have to source them but i need it nowww.
rdahm.... thats terrrible... thats gonna be a bitchhh to clean up... good luck... atleast everythigns looking twices as shinney! i cant believe how up beat you still sound lol... id be sooooooooooo heated... |
Originally Posted by whitey85mtu
(Post 9875290)
All power rack and pinion torsion bars are case hardened, not through hardened, and are not suitable for steering your car.
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Originally Posted by Railgun
(Post 9875487)
So what's the torque limit to what this can handle? I'm going to take a stab and guess it's more than it sees when we're moving as effort is still very light. I would gather by this logic, it would break when we're in a parking lot, if it would break at all.
If not, you will run into this problem: It's not going to break from one turn of the wheel. The material will work harden over time, and give way randomly. The determining factors are how much torque is introduced into the part, and at what angle you deflect the torsion bar. The stickier/wider the tire you place on the car, the more the torsion bar will deflect. My task my second summer working there was to determine whether the heat treatment could be removed from the t-bars. The most extreme case was to actuate the t-bar +/- 19*. These samples gave way (catastrophic failure, not a loss of torque [i.e. there is a torque spec that the bar must conform to. once this torque is not reached anymore, it has failed]), in as little as 5k cycles IIRC, with severe work hardening and bluing of the part form heat, prior to breaking. I tested every 2 degrees from 9* to 19*, and the 9* bar made it, on average, 500k cycles before failure. If you did weld the pinion and valve body, you're slightly better off, but you are still placing a torque on a part that wasn't ever designed with that in mind. Personally, I wouldn't risk it. |
Ok...so you're talking about t-bar the quill then? That must be welded, no ifs, ands, or butts. To your point, yes, I agree that w/o welding, you're stressing a part that should never see that kind of load. But by welding what is essentially two pieces together, you're significantly reducing/eliminating that load.
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I was upbeat because that wasn't oil or gas or coolant. Something simple
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I got my replacement locking wire (as I broke mine in two) and new boots from Ray. I don't think you can just buy generic ones. The OEM boots are actually different on the passenger and driver's sides.
Whitey85mtu's view was discussed in the writeup thread I linked in my earlier post. While it's definitely a valid theory engineering wise, the real world data doesn't support it. I've never even heard of an at-home manual conversion or a Maval converted rack failing and these things have been hitting the track and streets for years. The manual system shouldn't be as robust as the original power steering system, but for those of us unwilling to drop a grand on the atomic rack (drool) this mod, done correctly, is a good way to go. I absolutely love my manual rack. The road feel is great and without my A/C, I can climb in my engine bay and snuggle the new street port. |
2 Attachment(s)
thanks for the heads up but im still doing the conversion =/
and unfortunately im not welding that piece... however cant i just take that out at anytime? thats really easy to take out.. question... do you keep the bushing/seal in or remove it? it was the piece next to the part that we cut off... this.. Attachment 721983 Attachment 721984 |
Originally Posted by muibubbles
(Post 9876205)
and unfortunately im not welding that piece... however cant i just take that out at anytime? thats really easy to take out..
http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...00318-1436.jpg |
okay i think i have a friend who welds.. im looking at the pics and mine and i dont get what piece is being welded.. do i take off all the bearings and stuff?
anyone know about that bushing/oring? |
Originally Posted by muibubbles
(Post 9876348)
okay i think i have a friend who welds.. im looking at the pics and mine and i dont get what piece is being welded.. do i take off all the bearings and stuff?
anyone know about that bushing/oring? |
thanks.... anyone know if this bushing stays in or take it out?!?!
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That gets chopped off.
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^^ the rubber one too? i already cut the metal one off...
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1 Attachment(s)
ok so im about to have the quill welded... but quick question... once its welded do you put back the oil seals and this bearing?
Attachment 721985 |
3 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by Railgun
(Post 9875643)
Ok...so you're talking about t-bar the quill then? That must be welded, no ifs, ands, or butts. To your point, yes, I agree that w/o welding, you're stressing a part that should never see that kind of load. But by welding what is essentially two pieces together, you're significantly reducing/eliminating that load.
You are right that by welding the two parts together you are eliminating the torsion bar (which is just a torsional spring designed to give resistance). The torsion bar is a part that you can't see via the pictures in this thread. In Yellow is the top of the torsion bar: Attachment 721986 Non-shopped image: Attachment 721987 The other end is (or should be) press-fit into the pinion. The portion that is boxed in yellow is part of the PS valve, while the part in the red box is the pinion. Attachment 721988
Originally Posted by Prophet7000
(Post 9876042)
Whitey85mtu's view was discussed in the writeup thread I linked in my earlier post. While it's definitely a valid theory engineering wise, the real world data doesn't support it. I've never even heard of an at-home manual conversion or a Maval converted rack failing and these things have been hitting the track and streets for years. https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?p=9323333 :D And for those who don't want to go to the other thread and read what I wrote, here is my initial post, taken from page 2:
Originally Posted by whitey85mtu
(Post 7118897)
I'm sorry, but this is a TERRIBLE idea and, not could, but WILL eventually cause a wreck because of steering failure. I just started working with Hydraulic Power Steering for Automotive Components Holdings, LLC. I saw this writeup last night an didn't think that it was a very good idea to do it, but I had to make sure before I posted something on here without any relevant information. I asked two guys (independently) that I work with, one with 30 years of power steering expierence (R&P), and the other with 34 years (R&P and RV (recirculating ball nut, like the FB has)), and both of them said that it was a terrible idea.
First of all, a power R&P Pinion (what you guys call a "quill" *shakes head*) is only case hardened, not through hardened. The only reason why there is even a pinion in the power racks is so you have road feel. They are not designed to handle long term manual use. All of the steering comes from the hydraulic fluid pressure on either side of the piston (the part that you are cutting through and breaking off the actual rack). Once you remove the hydraulic power, it's only time before the pinion teeth shear and you've lost ALL steering. Second of all, if you don't weld the input shaft to the pinion and rely on the torsion bar (it's a torsional spring that is pinned at the knurled end of the input shaft and pressed into the top of the pinion) to steer the car, that WILL break before the pinion has time to wear to the point where it breaks. I just finished up testing on current production t-bars, and they are designed for use in a high travel valve (+- 12 degrees, +- 2 degrees during evasive manuvers). These were breaking after 20k cycles at +- 15 degrees of travel. This may not seem like alot, but the ONLY use of the t-bar in a hydraulic setup is to actuate the valve to route fluid pressure. When you go to a manual rack, the t-bar and the pinion are both used to steer the car, and they are designed accordingly. Typical road manuvers (lane changes, low speed turning) use 1-2 degrees of t-bar deflection, and during parking manuvers you're only using 7-9 degrees of valve travel (which equates to 7-9 degrees of t-bar deflection). If you're using this setup in an auto-cross situation with manual steering, you're be easily seeing 20+ degrees of t-bar deflection. This will give you EXTREMELY short lifespans. At +-17 degrees of travel (albeit on a non-heat-treated t-bar), you're looking at between 1250 and 2250 cycles to COMPLETE (t-bar in two pieces) failure. Third, welding the input shaft to the pinion, which is safer than using the t-bar to steer the vehicle, is another terrible idea. These parts are hardened, and by inducing uncontrolled, mass amounts of heat (which is needed to weld something that thick solidly) will destroy the heat treatment around that area. This will give you two extremely weak points (one on either side of the weld) that could contribute to steering failure. Now onto other things that you've done to mess with a steering rack. The "retainer" or whatever you called the part between the "nut" and the spring. That is known as the yoke. This part's function is to counteract the gear separation force between the pinion and the rack. It is precisely set to a certain clearance to keep friction to a minimum, while keeping the pinion and rack teeth in contact and still allowing grease to lubricate the rack to yoke interface. If you wrench this down all the way, you will increase effort substantially, induce un-needed friction, and cause the yoke to suffer excessive wear. Also, by increasing rack friction, you're either causing the t-bar to load up more, which, once again, substantially reduces the part's life, or adding alot more stress on the pinion teeth, which will cause them to fail even more quickly. So, from my point of view after working for a little while with power R&P, and talking to two guys that are regarded as the geniuses of the group (the guy that has 34 years is a physics major that doesn't use a calculator to calculate contact ratio, rack speed, piston area required for a certain parking force, etc, and he designs the gears for the rack and pinion and the sector and worm for RV gears), that this is a very dangerous conversion and that anyone that values their lives, the lives of the people around them, and their car, wouldn't ever consider doing. This is my $.02. Take it as you wish, but know that this isn't someone just spouting off, the data that i sited for the t-bars I just finished up collecting and analyzing last week, and that the sources of all the other information about the dangers of the pinion are from two guys that have a combined 64 years of expierence with R&P and RV gear steering. |
Originally Posted by whitey85mtu
(Post 9878641)
There is no such thing as a "quill" in a PS setup...
So we use the term loosely since it does somewhat turn independently though is connected by said torsion bar. What would be the better term? Pinion shaft? |
so0o0o0ooo...... does that bearing go back in? along with those oil seals? (or w.e the proper term is for them... the pieces that are taken off in the pics of the piece welded)
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Originally Posted by Railgun
(Post 9878779)
Ok. I guess the proper definition of a quill is a shaft turning independently inside another, right?
So we use the term loosely since it does somewhat turn independently though is connected by said torsion bar. What would be the better term? Pinion shaft? |
Is there any update on this, sorry to bring it back from the dead. Do those pieces need to go back on...and I'm assuming a press was used to get them off/on?
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np, thats what the search button is for..
as far as the bearing, i dont believe so.. its been so long since i did this that i dont remember... it all works beautifuly tho!... when i go home ill check my parts bin.... im almost positive the bearing is in there.. |
I ended up getting it figured out, it was pretty simple I was just a little hesitant doing this for the first time. Everything has been smooth so far.
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same, i was a little hesitant as it was my first time but its a breeze, you just need to have confidence and a little know how plus the diy from the miata lol
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.....so nothing goes back on after you weld it?
Just the black plastic piece at the top? None of the bearings or the seals we press off? |
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