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-   -   GT3582r... does it rule or is it old school (https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/gt3582r-does-rule-old-school-890936/)

Howard Coleman CPR 03-05-10 04:28 PM

GT3582r... does it rule or is it old school
 
(i posted a similar thread in the single turbo section... 90+ reads and 3 comments... on further thought i think the thread should be here as the single turbo guys are 500+ hp and there are alot more participants in this section wanting 400 to 450 which is what this thread is all about.)


GT3582r versus ??????????????????



i think the question re the GT35r versus ??? might be one of the most interesting questions that could be raised on this board.

the GT35r is the turbo of choice for the single conversion as it's 62 pounds of air and 400-450 range fits the overwhelming amount of FD objectives. further, it is ball bearing and has Garrett's good build quality.

is it best in class for our rotaries?

the primary problem i have w it is it's small turbine.

the 6.386 sq inch compressor matches against a diminutive 5.171 turbine. it might work fine on a piston engine that optimises at 1320 F EGT but w a 1600 F rotary... i would be looking for more hotside.

Sean at A-Spec has been offering an alternative, the GT3574. recognizing the the need for more flow he added a P trim wheel raising the hotside to 5.89. that moves the relationship from 81 to 92%. (other have also constructed similar variants)

as far as i am concerned a ported street/track rotary running a 60-65 pound turbo should be able to make 400 SAE hp at 5500. do it and you have an untouchable street rocket. the BW R85/TEC 300 gets it done. notice the relationship between the hot/cold... notice the size of the hot side.

a couple of interesting turbos are the S362 (nice hot side) and the BW S300s...

i like journal bearing turbos and consider them offering great value V BB. my experience indicates that journal bearing turbos MUST have a 360 degree thrust bearing to cope w the rotary heat.

i would welcome others who have more experience here to discuss the GT35r versus????

here's a list of turbos in the GT35 neighborhood w average cold and hot wheel average areas in sq inches...w the % relationship... for more see my sticky "Turbo comparison" in the Single Turbo Section

Borg Warner S300SX 8375......................6.383..................5 .408.......................85
GT3582R........................................... ........6.386..................5.171.............. 81
HTA 3582R (Forced Performance)............ 6.386.................5.171....................... 81
GT3574 (A-Spec and others)....................6.386.................. 5.89.(P).................92
GT3082R........................................... .........6.386.................smaller than GT35R..?
Precision 6262...........................................6.4 48..................5.408.....................84
Precision 6265........................................... 6.448.................5.885 (P)...............91
BW, R85, TEC300...................................... 6.667...................6.93...................... 104
BW Bullseye S362.......................................6.69... .................6.31.....................94
HTA 3586 (Forced Performance).................6.839................ ...5.171....................76
Borg W S300s 61/87(2010 catalog)...........6.946..................6.928... ..................100

howard

94touringFD 03-05-10 10:29 PM

I have the GT35R and have been contemplating attempts to optimize my setup. I've used your posts as some guidance and have appreciated the info you share. My thoughts have been water injection and maybe getting a divided housing, although I've been told that it isn't worth the money for the difference I'll see, with the housing. I would like to go up to 20psi and have been looking at Dude's mechanical set up but with the price have now considered a setup supplied by a pump. I figure water would be sufficient for me and don't want to go with more than I need, so I'm still undecided.

I was tuned to 374whp last year at 15psi on a dynamics dyno. It was a conservative tune since my brother and I had just finished the car and it was his first time really tuning. This year I would like to turn up the boost since I need to get back on the dyno since I had exhaust leaks last year and went from a straight through with a Apexi N1 to a Borla XR-1 MP and RB single tip CB. According to another post of yours I should have enough fuel. I'm wondering about boost, you stated up top that it makes 467 at 23.5psi.

How hard would I be beating on he turbo at that boost? I don't want to kick it's ass too bad. If it's pushing it I would prefer to back off a little. I'm not really aiming for a power goal cause believe me last year was a blast for me. While in Iraq I bought this and a '95 Civic SI hatch which was really all I had to compare against. I only want to utilize what I have without pushing the envelope.
I guess I'm just curious to what you think and if you have any insight for pointing me in the right direction. Plus this thread could use another person posting in it, lol.

ninesixtwo 03-05-10 10:54 PM

What about the Holset HX40? I'm new to FDland, but in many other communities the HX40 is a viable (often preferred) alternative to the 3582r. 69 lbs/min compressor, ultra-robust internals, ball-bearing quick spool with exhaust housings available from 14cm^2 to 22cm^2 iirc.

http://www.stcf.net/holset/Hx40--6blades-1.jpg

staticguitar313 03-08-10 01:02 AM

GT3574 look to be extremely promising. I'm starting to look into this turbo myself. I'm also however interested in seeing more Holset data.

Howard Coleman CPR 03-08-10 09:28 AM

looking at the turbos listed above perhaps a helpful conclusion can be drawn re the GT35.

it's compressor is in a class (almost) by itself.

the neighboring turbos judged by compressor size are really in a higher hp class based on output. most make 70+ pounds of air. if we assume that 400-450 is an extremely popular FD target they are just mis-sized. make no mistake here, more air is more lag. so there is a penalty as you climb the output ladder. there is also an additional cost as upgraded support systems eventually are required.

gt35
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/742/gt35r68mm.png


here's the only other compressor map in the low mid 60 pound class. there may be a few other 60 pound turbos but none, AFAIK, w compressor maps. the map below isn't a bad map but it has been around for a few years and has been used w a number of BW derived turbos that each have been a bit different. the same exact map is in the 2010 BW catalog yet the turbo has slightly different dimensions and also has "Extended Tip Technology" which didn't exist when this map was originally published.

there are a number of derivations of this turbo available.... the TEC-300, the BW S300s and a BullsEye S362.

i was very impressed w this turbo last summer on one of my motors as in a conservative tune it made 403 SAE at 5500 and just under 500 at 20 psi. i like the large turbine and the fact it is generally found in an inexpensive journal bearing format. i do believe it is a serious contender and the newest versions probably slightly outperform this compressor map.


http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/5530/ht3001.gif

here's how i see these two maps comparatively:

...........................................gt3582r .......................BW S362

compressor:.........................6.386......... ..................6.667
..........................................61.4 MM X 82.........61.5 MM X 84.7

turbine..................................5.171.... ........................6.93

air at 14.7 psi boost...............57............................ ....55

hp at 14.7...............................429............ .................414

air at 20 psi...........................60.................. ...............60

hp at 20 psi...........................452................. ............452

max air................................62 @23.5......................64 @ 34


considerations:

GT35 compressor can be had w a "P" trim turbine wheel w journal bearing AKA GT3574.

turbine is:
64.6 MM x 74.2 or 5.89 sq inch aver area.

BW map and all flow from the above compressor map. the turbo can be had w a newer "Extended Tip Technology" which supposedly extends the map and aids spool... all comments from users welcome. BW large turbine wheel lowers EBP (exhaust back pressure)... a real good thing.




re the GT35r from 94touringFD:

"467 at 23.5psi. How hard would I be beating on he turbo at that boost? I don't want to kick it's ass too bad."

zero problem since it is ball bearing. the single most positive factor comparing BB w journal B is the additional durability of the BB V the journal bearing thrust area.

re the Holset map... if the correction factors are identical to other maps it looks like the turbo flows 58 pounds? also the efficiency at 60% is somewhat less.

hc

smg944 03-10-10 09:23 AM

bullseye power lists the s362 as flowing 72 lbs. is that a typeo or are they using something different in their turbos? looking at a s362 myself. i had a gt35r last year and made 481whp at 22psi. i am now on a 67 but want to step down to a turbo in between the 35r and the 67.

Zero R 03-10-10 10:04 AM

All things being equal the non BB unit from BW will not "outspool" a BB equivalent. That was Bullseye hype. GT3574's are excellent all around turbo's and comparatively cheap being non BB. They are a excellent alternative to the 35R and consistently make more power. With them in BB they are only better. I think the next step up compressor wise would be your Precision 62/65. While this compressor will offer no noticeable difference at moderate boost levels over the standard 3582 wheel, it will offer a difference at higher pressure ratios say 22psi plus.

~S~

smg944 03-10-10 01:09 PM

The only differance I see with the bw 362 is that it has a 84 major compressor. Has anyone used the s364 . I'm am definetly going t4 just trying to find the right setup. Also how much more efficiant is the t4 35r ?

Lionheart 03-15-10 01:36 PM

Hello Howard,

I am reading all your threads with alot of interest, what I am thinking about is how does the A-spec 500R unit compare to the other ones listed in this thread - or is it in another class?

I just assumed that the 500R is between a GT35R and GT40R but don't know when it spools and hits full boost at all.

Maybe somebody can write something useful about it?

>> side question: how do you size your intercooler, by the turbo you choose - if so could a Greddy M-spec (cheapo for stock twins) fit with a GT35R --> only asking as I saw this setup at another car installed, not sure how much boost was run on it

thanks

Ben

Howard Coleman CPR 03-15-10 08:53 PM

AMAZING!

check this out... if you go to Garrett's website and take a gander at the GT3582r compressor map it has a whole new monster look. you'd swear it wasn't the same wheel.
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3...68allcompe.jpg

here's the Garrett map we have all used since the GT35 came out... off ATP's site as of today.


http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/742/gt35r68mm.png

the difference is huge. notice the broader and taller map.

a few comparisons.........
.................................................. old.......................new
at 14.7 psi.................................57............ ............60 pounds air
(max)rotary rwhp......................429..................... ..452

at 20 psi.....................................60.5...... ................64
R rwhp........................................455... ...................482

at max delivery..........................62.............. ............67
R rwhp........................................467... ...................505
psi..............................................2 3.9.......................33

so unless someone sneaked onto the site and switched maps Garrett is currently listing the GT35r at close to 70 pounds of air! my guess is they cranked up a new map. insiders of course are welcome to fill us in.

given the higher numbers it makes me more interested in the GT35 compressor w a larger rotory friendlier turbine wheel... GT3574 perhaps:)

i was going to respond to the recent posts but will get it done tomorrow.

wow on the map.

howard

neit_jnf 03-16-10 10:33 AM

68mm vs 82mm?? typo?

Snowblind113 03-17-10 03:40 AM

Howard, have you seen the Precision Turbo 6262?? Or the 6265 for that matter....

-edit 5am, should have read the bottom portion of the OP, listed right there : )

Anyway my friend is running the 6262, spool up time is faster due to the aluminum billet wheel and the increased compressor size made it very appealing over the stock gt35r, I can't seem to find any charts/numbers on it though (even on Precision's site, unless you count the "recommended HP output")

rdahm 03-17-10 11:48 AM

Considering this is in the general 3rd gen auto section I'll add this. The gt3582r is Aka gt35r aka gt35/40. Alot of common names for one turbo. I read a PM I had from 2003 where I told someone that I wasn't interested in their gt35r cause I had someone else with a gt35/40 for sale. I basically was a dumbass. Just an FYI. I even had some of the confusion on my turborx7 website for a while. Ppl grow and learn :-p

Howard Coleman CPR 03-17-10 02:50 PM

"I can't seem to find any charts/numbers on it though (even on Precision's site, unless you count the "recommended HP output")"

while i believe billet compressor wheels offer flow advantage (if you don't believe it just take a look at the Garrett GT42 comparo compressor map) Precision offers no maps. numerous piston guys have made significant hp gains V non billets but quite a bit of the gains are at stratospheric boost levels.

further don't forget to do the rotary math when looking at piston hp.; you have to divide it by 1.3. if you see, say 700 hp, you divide the number by 1.3 and end up w 538 rotary hp.

on the plus side for billet hp, the Garrett map shows gains at medium boost.

the primary advantage is a smaller hub so you get more vane area per total area.

it will be neat to see a few of our boardmembers dyno out w the billets and it will be neat to see a Garrett GT35 billett eventually.

hc

neit_jnf 03-17-10 05:36 PM


Originally Posted by neit_jnf (Post 9871002)
68mm vs 82mm?? typo?


the gt35r maps are titled gt35r 68mm and gt35r 82mm... does this have anything to do with the differences in the maps?

Howard Coleman CPR 03-17-10 07:18 PM

i am going to check w a contact at Garrett.

Howard Coleman CPR 03-18-10 04:10 PM

from ATP:

"Hi Howard,

The one on the Garrett site is the latest and greatest and we will update our site accordingly.

Thank you for pointing that out."

from a Garrett/Mazda insider of significant note:

"Yeah. I would think the ATP map and designation is wrong.
The Garrett GT35R Compressor map looks correct.

However I only use maps as a cursory prediction of airflow/pressure ratio performance and efficiency capability.
I have see same aero based units run on gas stand test with totally different map output results. Use maps as “indicators” only."

of course i still haven't heard from Garrett so i will spend a few minutes tomorrow making the call. it is interesting stuff if they did another map on the wheel and it turned out as it did.

hc

KKMpunkrock2011 03-18-10 05:41 PM

another alternative, at least from what I've been able to find, is the t04z/t04s, max flow is around 73 lbs iirc, I'm also interested in the HX40, it's a path I've been considering, especially since they can be picked up for extremely cheap as far as turbos go.

Howard Coleman CPR 03-18-10 07:26 PM

one of the reasons i started this thread, which is far from finished, is because the GT35 is so commonly run on the FD...

tech continues to evolve so let's examine the alternatives.

i group our turbo options in small-medium and large. the 60 pound turbos fit in the small category.. such as the GT35. the medium turbos are the 67 MMs like the TO4Z and the GT500 and PT67. the large class starts w the GT40s and continues up.

small is not small as the GT35r making 67 pounds does 500 rwhp. unless you have actually driven/ridden in a 500 rwhp FD you won't have any idea as to the kick delivered.

yet tech soldiers on... have you seen the comparative Garret billet/non billet compressor maps? at one pressure ratio of boost (14.7 psi) the non billet makes 74 pounds per minute (558 rwhp) and the billet makes 89 pounds or 671 rwhp!

plus 20%! and that is at low boost!

given the large volume of GT35s having been sold i would guess it is a high probabliity that a Garrett billet GTX35 is coming to a tuner shop near you.

let's see... 505 X 1.2 = 600+ rwhp! all from a fast spooling 6.386 sq in wheel.

of course there is a very nice billet GT35 varient from Forced Performance... the HTA3582r
they will even do a compressor wheel swap on your GT35r for $600.00. i like the proprietor, Robert Young, who is active on the EVO boards.

link to the turbo: http://store.forcedperformance.net/m..._Code=Turbo-FP

here's an interesting dyno comparison on 3 of the GT3582r competitors... draw your own conclusions.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-eng...o-comparo.html

we are just getting started.

howard

thewird 03-18-10 07:38 PM

^ Could that extra early RPM power be coming from the smaller 35R turbine housing compared to a 6265 turbine which would cause boost to come on sooner and make more power sooner?

thewird

KKMpunkrock2011 03-18-10 08:29 PM

I can't find much information on the pte turbo, but that would make sense, however I think it would be offset by the smaller inducer and inlet of the HTA turbo
I have a feeling it may have something to do with the strength of the aluminum used, the HTE turbo compressor uses 2000 series aluminum which is stronger than the 6062 aluminum, the stronger aluminum doesn't flex as much resulting in greater airflow, but I could be way off base on that.

sub9lulu 03-19-10 10:11 AM

something to consider b4 buying new garretts'


Originally Posted by Mr Garrett Employee

I work at Garrett Turbos, now called Honeywell Turbo Technologies which there so proud of. When Cliff Garrett Owned Garrett He used to brown bag his lunch everyday and cared for a quality Product. If he knew what Honeywell has done now he would turn over in his grave. Honeywell bought Garrett In 1998 or 1999. After this they opened up a turbo testing lab in shanghai China and quickly moved there turbo overhaul to Mexicali Mexico, quickly after Garrett overhaul went belly-up. So they moved there whole production to Mexicali Mexico, as if that first failure was not a sign.

Garrett Turbos made a quality product for a fair price. A turbo is a precision instrument. Garrett turbos was part of Garrett Air Research (on 190th st. In Torrance ca.) Where they have a huge facility designing turbine engines, and so on. Most of the senior technicians in our main turbo facility (Lomita Blvd Torrance ca) came from our air research. If you’re building jet engines a turbo is not all that difficult. Well Cliff Garrett dies. At that time ALL production of Garrett Turbos was at Lomita Torrance ca. Also all engineering and research was there as well. After we were bought and production was sent to Mexico to save costs. Our production numbers doubled. And cost was cut in half our failure rate tripled. Well who cares Honeywell is making money and lots of it. Turbos are considered Honeywell’s golden egg. They feel that turbos are going to take over big. Which it already has in the diesel market. We make

ford diesel turbos, daf, Chevrolet, some Audi, vw, fiat, Perkins. Millions of turbos. And there now all coming from china and Mexico. Well up until lately the company figured if the product was designed in the US and assembled in Mexico we would be ok. Well to further there profit and **** the customer once again….the LAST of what makes turbo American leaves in January 2011. We will close the doors to the Torrance Lab. In Torrance we did all our racing turbos (wrc stuff, Audi racing etc..) then in the garret garage we did the turbos you people buy for your Subaru’s. Actually I take that back. They take turbos that were made on a production line somewhere else in the world, and change a couple of parts on a bench in Torrance (wheels, housing..etc) and send it to you the customer saying it was made in the us…..no it was not it was just repackaged and altered a little. Well as of Jan 2011 all your turbos will be made in Mexico or china or Czech Republic. This is the last Garrett facility in the United States.

We have huge law suits pending due to turbo failures. GM is probably going to leave us…. ford has already sued us. Caterpillar has one of the largest recalls in garret history in the process. Our name is becoming ****. The last few VERY smart guys left in the company are being fired to save costs, but see our profit is already good…..they just want more. Please don’t spend 1500$ on a gt35r. Now that it’s costing Honeywell less to build turbos do you think you will see a smaller bill when you order there product? NO!. They are going to charge you even more for even less. There are countless procedures that are being terminated everyday that made our turbos THE BEST. They keep cutting corner after corner. Did you know that we shave metal off our turbine and compressor housings until they are at the EXTREME minimum needed to contain in the event of failure they are shaving every nickel off the cost of a turbo. Did you know that 2000$ gt40 you buy is all mark up. I won’t dare say the actual cost to the company in fear of a lawsuit but lets just say your sales tax is more then the production cost.

Do not buy these turbos. BorgWarner and mitsu are trying there best to compete with us making a quality product. Honeywell is using its big name to back junky turbos Like Toyota is starting to do. I guarantee in the next 8 months you will see a huge decline in quality. All designing and production is in CHINA AND MEXICO. Honeywell is taking back all there benefits they used to supply us with as employees. That way when they lay us off its as cheap as possible. Instead of saying “Well after we take a hit laying those people off we will make tons” they are just taking back all there benefits so they walk away clean and clear. We used to get a severance package. Which they just took away. One of the head engineers involved in the t3 project. (Designing the first t3) he is still with our company. he was supposed to get 44 weeks of pay if he ever got layed off (30 days and 1 week for every year with the company. 40 years with the company)Due to the new Honeywell rules he gets only 16 weeks pay they stole all that pack after promising it to him for 40 years. My fingers and about to fall off typing all this and I am heated so I don’t care about grammar I’m concerned about you people not supporting a Nazi company. Take your business elsewhere. Somewhere where you will get what your money pays for. Have a nice day and don’t forget if you hear the name HTT Honeywell Turbo Technologies Stay away.

(They still use the garret stamp on the turbos)

http://www.iheartauto.com/blog/?p=1065


http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1404889

fountain333 03-19-10 10:53 AM

Im wondering more about the forced performance gt3586r....1.00 A/R with the divided housing??

fountain333 03-24-10 08:22 AM

ttt

ALPSTA 03-24-10 09:02 AM


Originally Posted by sub9lulu (Post 9878202)

That article is missing credibility and sounds like written by a sour employee or a competitor. It may be right but definitely biased.


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