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FD suddenly and without warning, won't start...
Hey guys,
I knew it'd only be a matter of time before I posted a thread like this here. I didn't anticipate it would be less than a month into ownership, but here we are. So... I needed to buy a DIN removal tool to take out my radio, cause my wideband is giving me an error and I have to access the back of it. I start the car up today - let it warm up like normal - after water and oil are about 110*-120*F, I start driving it nice and easy. I wait till both water and oil are at/above about 160*F. I give it full throttle in third revving from about 3500 rpm's to about 7000 rpm's and let off as I approach some slower traffic. Pull up to the stop light, everything is perfect. Drive to Best Buy about 5-7 minutes away, everything is perfect. Get there, go inside for about 10 minutes. Start the car in the lot easy peazy, everything is running perfect. Drive the car around back to speak with the car audio guys. Cars turned off for 10 maybe 15 minutes. Go to start it and it won't start. Starter spun just fine, motor even started for a moment but wouldn't idle and I couldn't keep it going even with pushing the gas a bit. Tried it again same thing. So, I'm thinking it must be flooded some how. I sit there for about 15 minutes, this time I try to start with the gas pedal floored, to try to deflood a bit. Try it again without the gas pedal and nothing. Cranks, cranks, cranks but won't catch. Pushed the car into the Best Buy bay and the super cool guys hooked up a battery charger to my battery so I could try again with stronger cranking power. After another 15-20 minutes, same exact results. At this point I've convinced myself it must be flooded. So, I pull the two trailing plugs and they are dry. Had my wife bring me new plugs from the store and put them in. Nothing. Crank crank, no start. I had to tow it home. I am baffled. Why the car would start moments prior and run perfectly, giving no warning or any sort of strangeness in its idle or anything, beats the hell out of me. I'm totally confused. Any input would be much appreciated. As a side note, last night I did have to drive home from a meet in some pretty heavy rain but I don't know how that would or could have effected the car. Especially when it ran fine today, just minutes prior to this. Anyone else have a similar experience?? Thank you! Nick |
check the plug and wiring to the igniter and make sure they are good
Check the fuel pump fuse. The one in the fuse box behind the drivers side kick panel. How modified is the car? Does the car have a j and s knock sensor? |
Gotta start with the basics.. fuel,spark,compression
Maybe check for codes as well. |
Originally Posted by Fritz Flynn
(Post 12013540)
check the plug and wiring to the igniter and make sure they are good
Check the fuel pump fuse. The one in the fuse box behind the drivers side kick panel. How modified is the car? Does the car have a j and s knock sensor? The car has an A Spec GT40 single kit, all supporting mods. Motor is street ported, built by Kilo. I was actually planning to take it to him in the morning anyway to get a boost issue worked out. Now, I've got this... I will check the fuse as that seems to me the most likely, I had it in mind to check tomorrow morning anyhow but didn't want to mess with it tonight. The circumstances are what's throwing me off. All of these things are possibilities but how/why would it be running flawlessly and then after shutting off for 10 minutes, it give me this problem?? That's what's got me scratching my head. You hear plenty of stories about how the car started to run like shit or that it wouldn't idle or whatever. The car was PERFECT, until it suddenly wasn't. That's what's so damn confusing... Nick |
Originally Posted by Houstonderk
(Post 12013543)
Gotta start with the basics.. fuel,spark,compression
Maybe check for codes as well. Car has a Microtech LT-10 so not sure how to check the codes on it. Nick |
Potential issues with the fuel pump could extend past a blown fuse as well. Had a guy here in Utah, a few months ago, who's car exhibited the same issues as yours. Turned out that his WB 255 had sucked the sock material through the pump and ruined its internals.
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Do you have aftermarket coils? I had a blown fuse to my AEM smart coils which exhibited this exact behavior. My bet is ignition or fuel pump fuse.
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Originally Posted by furious_rotation
(Post 12013576)
Potential issues with the fuel pump could extend past a blown fuse as well. Had a guy here in Utah, a few months ago, who's car exhibited the same issues as yours. Turned out that his WB 255 had sucked the sock material through the pump and ruined its internals.
Nick |
Originally Posted by Neutron
(Post 12013579)
Do you have aftermarket coils? I had a blown fuse to my AEM smart coils which exhibited this exact behavior. My bet is ignition or fuel pump fuse.
Heading out to the garage now to check them out. Nick |
Fuel pressure gauge for the line at the engine, and timing light on plug wire. Checks fuel pressure and spark.
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Update
Looked at several fuses, everything's good. Wanted to rule out the flooding thing so I pulled the EGI fuse, cranked it for 15 seconds with the gas pedal fully pressed. Repeated this a minute later. Then, tried to start it normally and got nothing.
Called a good friend and rotary mechanic and he asked me about my fuel pressure - it didn't make sense to him that my plugs were so dry when I pulled them. Low and behold, I've got "0.0" on my SPA electronic gauge and my Aeromotive FPR reads dead 0 as well. So, I pull both lines from the tank, under the rear carpet - and the hose on the passenger side dribbles out only a few drops of fuel. The line to drivers side, when pulled, had zero fuel come out of it. Then, with both lines disconnected I cranked the engine (well my wife did) and no fuel came from either of the lines. Next step is to determine if the fuel pump is the issue or the Microtech perhaps not sending the signal to it. I do have a spare fuel pump, it's from Rotary Performance and when speaking to them, they insist they rarely go bad so I may try that pump out instead. For now, I've got to go to work... Nick |
Originally Posted by MiamiFD3S
(Post 12013708)
Looked at several fuses, everything's good. Wanted to rule out the flooding thing so I pulled the EGI fuse, cranked it for 15 seconds with the gas pedal fully pressed. Repeated this a minute later. Then, tried to start it normally and got nothing.
Called a good friend and rotary mechanic and he asked me about my fuel pressure - it didn't make sense to him that my plugs were so dry when I pulled them. Low and behold, I've got "0.0" on my SPA electronic gauge and my Aeromotive FPR reads dead 0 as well. So, I pull both lines from the tank, under the rear carpet - and the hose on the passenger side dribbles out only a few drops of fuel. The line to drivers side, when pulled, had zero fuel come out of it. Then, with both lines disconnected I cranked the engine (well my wife did) and no fuel came from either of the lines. Next step is to determine if the fuel pump is the issue or the Microtech perhaps not sending the signal to it. I do have a spare fuel pump, it's from Rotary Performance and when speaking to them, they insist they rarely go bad so I may try that pump out instead. For now, I've got to go to work... Nick Probably hack job fuel pump wiring bypass job |
Replace that fuel pump fuse anyhow, that was my first instinct too. I've been on long drives and had it heat up and "melt" more then "pop". If you don't pay particular attention, it might look like it's fine but actually be done.
No better feeling then discovering it's a $.10 problem. :icon_tup: |
Originally Posted by Fritz Flynn
(Post 12013745)
Clearly fuel pump isn't getting power. Solve that and you fixed the issue :icon_tup:
Probably hack job fuel pump wiring bypass job I did notice a Bosch relay wired into the fuel pump's wiring, looked a little simple in nature. In speaking to the builder he says that relay goes into the car's factory wiring, if I remember correctly. Nick |
Oh, sounds like the previous owner did a rewire:
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...ty-mod-615964/ https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...l-pump-847009/ Common stuff. |
Gotta be careful with the rewire, as these pumps can overheat fuses/relays if you don't use beefy enough wiring/switches.
I've had two failures to date. 1. melted a fuse holder for 30amp, even having used 12 gauge wiring 2. upgraded that wiring and fuse holder, and next failure was longacre 30 amp switch just literally broke 3. fixed the switch, added a relay, all is good and then the PINS on the fuel pump bulk head connector burned up! LOL Solution was direct 10 gauge wire, directly to the fuel pump w/ spade connector, immediately into an 80AMP relay, then directly to the battery! The pump was a walbo 400. Not sure how or why it burned everything in its path! |
An easy test to do before removing the access panel and removing the pump is to check for voltage to the wiring connector at the pump's wiring harness.
Just clip on your leads to the source side of the harness, and watch the multimeter while cranking. This will test if you have a 0V problem, or a fuel pump problem. :) |
By the way.... You do have fuel in the tank, yes? :lol:
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Originally Posted by MK3Brent
(Post 12013872)
By the way.... You do have fuel in the tank, yes? :lol:
Nick |
It's always something to check. For some reason my gauge goes to a smidge below a 1/4 tank and fuel pressure starts cutting out. Have to check mine out as well.
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Don't cut the red wire!!
Good news is, the Microtech lights up! So, I know it isn't dead which is a good thing.
Ok, so I'm discovering I wouldn't make it on the bomb squad. So, here's as far as I can figure out... - Red wire coming off the battery (unconfirmed) splices to orange wire with inline fuse holder and 20 amp fuse -- this wire terminates in the relay - Wire harness from car has a red/white (thicker gauge), green/white and blue wire - Green/white and blue wire remain unaltered and terminate at fuel pump clip - Red/white wire has been spliced to pink which terminates in the relay - Red cable out of relay splits to red/white wire and black wire, which both terminate at fuel pump clip - Green wire from relay terminates at grounding point Now as far as I can work out, I assumed the thicker gauge red/white wire would be power and the green would be ground. Then I notice the mystery black wire and I'm confused. I am not sure which to test. I tested my tester on my battery and got 12v so it should be accurate. In playing around with it, I couldn't get a solid reading from the pins but perhaps I didn't jam it into the holes far enough? I did get one of them to read 12v while grounding to the grounding point pictured. Not sure which one... Any advice? Pics: https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...ba4d315a4.jpeg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...efac5fcec.jpeg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...a7e83a0ec.jpeg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...6be78a6da.jpeg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...6aa5b5af4.jpeg Nick |
Yuck, that's some messy wiring.
The green/white and blue wire are for fuel level, red/white is pump power, black just ground. To test power, turn ignition to ON and jump the F/P and GND pin in the diagnosis box, and you should see 12V at the 4-pin connector on red/white wire. If not then you need to check to see if you are getting 12V signal to the relay (red/white wire on the harness side), next would be that fuse with orange wire, then the relay or the pump itself. I would suggest redoing the wiring, find a better place for the relay and that fuse should really be as close to the source as possible. |
3 Attachment(s)
Did you inspect the bulkhead connector? I know it was suggested but didn't see a response from you. I've burned these up before and replaced them with a Racetronix unit. Here is what a burned up bulkhead connector looks like.
Attachment 616703 Attachment 616704 Attachment 616705 |
Originally Posted by ZE Power MX6
(Post 12014100)
Yuck, that's some messy wiring.
The green/white and blue wire are for fuel level, red/white is pump power, black just ground. To test power, turn ignition to ON and jump the F/P and GND pin in the diagnosis box, and you should see 12V at the 4-pin connector on red/white wire. If not then you need to check to see if you are getting 12V signal to the relay (red/white wire on the harness side), next would be that fuse with orange wire, then the relay or the pump itself. I would suggest redoing the wiring, find a better place for the relay and that fuse should really be as close to the source as possible. Wiring and electricity are not my specialities ;) So, please help clarify for me: "jump the F/P and GND pin in the diagnosis box" -- are you saying to take a wire and connect the F/P and GND so they make a circuit? Forgive my ignorance and, thank you for the direction... Nick |
Originally Posted by ZoomZoom
(Post 12014130)
Did you inspect the bulkhead connector? I know it was suggested but didn't see a response from you. I've burned these up before and replaced them with a Racetronix unit. Here is what a burned up bulkhead connector looks like.
I'll check it out along with the wiring mentioned above tonight after work. Thank you! Nick |
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