China parts - Might not be as bad as you think
 

I am going to make this a quick one, I bought a 50mm super cheap wastegate about 4 or 5 years ago. I ran it for almost 2 years without a issue (17psi on the spring)

I wanted to change to another turbo setup with variable vane tech, like a Garrett GT4082

Well I sold my entire turbo setup with that reliable cheap wastegate to a good friend, well I thought about buying a name brand wastegate but then I thought about old faithful and decided to buy 2 more. I did a best offer and bought 2 for 78 bucks each (50mm v-band flanges)

Well I wanted to get the construction properties of the metal, and I happen to have access to people that test metal to tell you what it's made out of and if there is a flaw in the welds/casting ect. Well I tell you what I was sup-prized here is the metal construction.

Attachment 678118

He didn't find any cracks or anything in the casting wrong, dye checked and x-ray.

Here is what the wastegate looks like.

Attachment 678119

Now I'm not saying go out and buy this at all, I'm just saying by the tests there isn't anything wrong with the china made dirt cheap parts.

Just wanted to chunk this out there.

http://9thcivic.com/gallery/albums/post/0t2kY.gif

This is gonna be good! :nod:

Interesting fine. It would be cool do the same test with the Ebay intercoolers and radiators.

That's cool that you thought of testing that. Some of these parts are probably fine. I think that the issue a lot of people have with Chinese parts is not that they are inherently flawed or that every single one of them is a piece of junk, but that the QA is seriously lacking and the incidence of junk parts is unacceptably high. And on some critical parts of your engine, a quality part with a name brand behind it is a cheap insurance policy.

Also, it's not great to buy these cheap knockoffs because that only encourages the Chinese companies to keep ripping them off and discourages the real manufacturers from investing in the R&D behind new products only to have their work stolen.

I like that video but would like to see the real tial in that same test.

That was ALOT of abuse, I have see a few rotarys get that how but not constantly.

The only Chinese parts I've heard of multiple failures are usually the cheap turbos or exhaust manifolds. They tend to crack more often than brand name parts.

The problem isn't the body its the piston and the diaphragm.

My problem isn't generally with quality, because anyone can make a quality part if they try (though knock off turbos, wheels, and many other parts have been proven inferior). It's the theft of the R&D that bothers me.

If you are looking for cracks in a casted WG body then you are doing the wrong test, casting is like cookie cutter, just pour metal into a mold. Diaphragm is where these WG and BOV fail, now take a header or turbo manifold and do the same test, test the fitment too while you are at it.

There's a video of them testing a Tial too.

popcorn


truth is most of the knockoffs do the job nearly as well after the failures have been addressed. no company is ever in business for long if they keep producing crap, even the chinese.

i've even seen cheap chinese turbos makes in excess of 400whp for numerous years without failing.

i've also used the $75 50mm wastegates and not had any issues with them. one wound up getting destroyed after being replaced by a tial and going onto a different vehicle after a tow hook was accidentally attached to it while towing the car on a flatbed(don't ask me what he was thinking..), but it worked fine on a 450whp FC for years. not like your average wastegate is going to be subjected to that much heat for an hour straight... not a good example scenario.

who can forget the glued together turbos that came out 6 or 7 years ago, but since then have you heard of it? yes the balancing isn't perfect but the parts have obviously gotten better. if all these parts are crap how do these speed shops actually survive by selling these parts in droves? i picked up a cheap chinese Godspeed radiator only a few weeks ago, first time i laid hands on one, and it was actually a rather decently constructed part(the brackets fit right and it went right in).

think your FD is going to do a high speed run across the desert at 180mph for an hour straight and not cook the motor first? yeah. keep thinking that.

not everyone has $400 to throw at a simple valve and body mechanism.

i of course understand Tial in wanting to represent their products and not want to lose too much to the influx of 5 cent per hour labor from overseas, but those who want name brand will buy name brand and always will. Tial may lose some business but they certainly won't go out of business over this. those who buy cheap parts know the gamble and risk involved.


but the FD crowd is a picky one, putting this here you will get a bit of criticism. (i will as well, partly why i don't come to the 3rd gen section all that often)

who knows, maybe the chinese can cast 20B parts. i doubt you will hear much complaining then. (casting iron is not a complex process, nor is machining it but it does require heavy and expensive equipment to do, even if we had to cut and nitrite the parts ourselves.) if i had a spare junk thick iron i certainly would look into it(the hardest part to find and also the first to be worn out or how about REW irons, which also won't be around forever. think mazda will fire up the mills just because we ask nicely? nope.

Well that's it, your one part test has totally changed my mind about chinese quality. :bigthumb:





On a serious note:
I only trust chinese products that see limited heat and are static by nature.

I completely agree with your statement.

Not everything made in China is crap, no. But as others have pointed out, the problem is...China consistently steals others companies' designs, along with all the engineering that went into them, and then makes these cheap knock-offs. They are cheap because the Chinese workers get paid next to nothing. They are cheap because the Chinese factories don't conform to any modern environmental standards and simply poison the Earth without a second thought. The product itself is fine because it was ENGINEERED that way, by others.
Personally, I avoid products like this like the plague. But Rotary Revolution makes a good point: If a Chinese manufacturer makes available a part or assembly that is either no longer available here or is like 1/10th the price...a LOT of people suddenly go, "Well yeah, I mean...you know...it IS made in China but DAMN! A 750 hp 4-rotor for $1200? You can't go wrong, you know...?"

Exactly. In the medical world, this is called a 'Case Study.'

Try convincing a physician to change their prescribing habits for their entire patient population on the results of a one-patient test :lol:

Thanks for posting this though :icon_tup:

i guess most folks already forgot that Japan used to sell crap couple decades ago.

just wanna point that everyone gotta start somewhere ---- and u guys thought we used to make quality goods ?

process is improving, sure china stole lots of stuff, but so did the rest of the world. history repeats itself over and over. no need to point fingers. and as far as I remember, Last year's China has filed more patents than US.

This +100. Someone who buys a Chinese part will very rarely ever buy authentic products from Japan. Unless of course they are forced to buy authentic due to no alternative. I can't tell you how many PMs I have received from people looking for replica parts or want a $300 titanium exhaust (we don't sell replica parts). Anyways, those buyers buying Chinese parts would never be a customer of the genuine manufacturer , thus I see no overlap.

That's 100% accurate.

Working and living in China for 9 years now, I am starting to understand the composites market pretty well (I do fiberglass/carbon fiber cars and motorbikes parts mainly). I can tell you that a lot of brands that claim to be Japanese actually have their productions in chinese factories. The only difference is that people feel more confident to buy "Made in Japan" products. :hahano:

yep. same as some "american parts "

Well, manufactured in China and bootleg by China is 2 different thing...

I like the back and forth comments, this is turning out to be a decent discussion.

I will get back with my guy on Monday to get what type of metal the valve and shaft is made of, as well as the valve seat.

The diaphragm inside these two are the exact same style and material as the control valves at work that are exposed to 1000F turbine external (exhaust and high pressure steam) heat. But looks don't mean everything.

It's always I heard from a guy, that knew a guy, that told that guy about his "bad" experience with X product which could be blown out of proportion to begin with. Honestly everyone is being a little too harsh and focusing on where the parts came from rather testing results and experiences.

FWIW, I worked for COBB Tuning for a few years and I would bet most of you trust their products right? Well hate to burst your bubble but I found out that they and almost every company they work with also have most their products manufactured in China. Reason which I'm sure you already know but outsourcing is far more superior than buying the tooling and materials in house. Naturally once X products arrived, QA had to be done (but it was all visual fyi). I would love to go on about how many parts from COBB's website are outsourced and how much cheaper it is but I did however sign the "trade secret agreement" before departing with them... I'll just say that it's a SMALL fraction of the cost. The environment suffering, cheap wages and knocking off the accomplished R&D is a major downside to all of this but everyone is in it for the money and that's not changing anytime soon.

At the end of the day, it's your car, your money; so you if you don't like it then don't buy it! How about lets make this thread useful, based on actual experience with X products and testing results to aid everyone on purchasing decisions.

My 2 cents: In all of my years in the tuning world the only parts I stand by from ebay and had zero issues thus far have been intercoolers, radiators, depo lights, IC piping, strut bars, and catch cans. I haven't ventured into the turbos or internal components.

I personally do not have a "problem" with parts made in China. The problem with these parts is that they are copying a product and stealing business from the companies who worked to gain market share and performed the R&D to make the product. If they worked and designed their own products under their own business name and spend the money to advertise, sponsor and positively contribute to the industry then they would deserve the profits they may make.


Having said this.... I have shine auto parts on my car:lol:

I agree. That is almost 6 minutes of constant testing that does not match re-world use. The temp gage probe display was not shown after the test system was stabilized and working. Useless test by itself.

Update.....

My friend was at work today after all, so we checked out the valve and valve seat. I have the screen shots for all the metallurgical data.

Valve body
Attachment 677935

Valve itself ( it's basically steel) melting point around 2500F ( please correct me if I'm wrong on this, I'm not 100% sure )
Attachment 677936

Valve seat
Attachment 677937

^Is that good? Can you explain that data for those of us who arn't metalurgists? Cheers.

the valve is a 4140 alloy steel, also called chromium-molybdenum steel. melting point is at roughly 2600F and is a rather common hardened steel alloy.

the stainless seat is probably not a great mating surface but in real world applications it shouldn't be problematic as in the video unless subjected to more heat than it should ever be subjected to.

you will probably find the Tial components actually very similar in all respect to the cheap knockoffs.

the next question is the valve guide material and its tolerance, the chinese valves may have too tight of tolerances which may have seized the valve due to thermal expansion. most guides are likely going to be a bronze alloy which will expand more rapidly than the body, seat or valve, but only when exposed to higher than rated working temperatures and for longer than designed to.

^ ok thanks for that.

6,200 cycles at that kind of heat seems like a pretty good performance, yeah? They also said the 'gate wouldnt hold pressure brand new out of the box and couldnt be fitted anyway because of sloppy machining.
It would be interesting to see the tial's performance in the same test.

the performance is to be expected and probably still surpasses what most would put it through.

they of course are going to exaggerate any issues they can find with it, simply because it isn't up to their standards.

^ yeah, i should've noticed before who was posting that test on youtube. Here is a vid of them testing one of their own products. Test is inconclusive as it isnt tested to destruction, or even to the point that the knock-off failed.

i have no doubt the Tial would perform better, but how much that it's worth the 4X price tag is the real question here.

i've seen plenty of people put down healthy and reliable numbers from some of these cheaper components.

Best post in this whole thread, I also work at a well known tuning shop and yes its true. If any of you think HKS or Greddy parts are strictly manufactured in Japan.....youre an idiot. Hell, just cause a company claims its manufactured here doesnt mean they arent lying, case in point AMS and Racing Beat. Seen it first hand in factories in CHINA.

:facepalm: :facepalm:

It all depends, I have a guy making near 500whp on a OBX T04S pushing 20+psi, he is also running a OBX manifold and 50mm wastegate. It's been solid reliable car and has produced great results. As for my personal experience I trust OBX products as much as I do the Japanese brands.

Someone already said it in the first page: It is not about being built in China, it is about the quality control in China.

A foreign company that manufactures in China still conforms to their quality standards from back home. Speaking from an engineering perspective and from someone who has traveled to China extensively, my biggest problem has always been quality control. I've worked with several companies and 90% of our issues where QA and or quality practices. For some strange reason the average worker just refused to listen, all I can gather that it must be a cultural thing. Beijing, Haikou, Shenzhen, Zhuhai it didn't matter how many times we told them or emphasize the importance, the second we turned our backs they were back at their old practices. So can imagine that it was constant struggle.

Now do you actually think that a knock off company is going to have that same standard as HKS? Yeah no.

^This is why I don't buy things from China that are knock-offs. Until they adopt/create/enforce/conform to some sort of copyright or patent laws, I all but boycott the stuff. Nothing wrong with their manufacturing, and QC varies from plant to plant, and the price points rock. But the shot below the belt to the inventor and OEM are what I can't support.



RX7 Nut13B: Thanks for starting this thread. It is nice to see some analysis on some imported parts.

and i bet nothing in your house has china parts in it.

truth is ALOT of shit comes from china, even things we think are quality products.

In response to the posts stating its theft...
I agree that it is theft, 100%. however competition drives ingenuity. I dont necessarily mean leaps and bounds, but small improvements to an existing product, that makes it better. Then your customer is getting a reason to spend more.

IMO, chances are they return to their old habits because of the amount the make. If we are honest with ourselves, if we were making 5 bucks a day, we wouldn't give a rats ass about the quality of the part.

it makes me wonder what limitations there are for trademarks and international sales. it would be nice if there was a way that the knockoffs couldn't print an "HKS" or "Tial" label on just anything they felt like without legal ramifications. part of the problem is many people don't even know they're getting knockoff parts and it looks bad for the true companies.

that is the one huge thing i would prefer to see omitted.

These are not knockoff companies. Reread. These are companies making the original products for US/Japanese companies. We get sent one prototype item and QC it OURSELVES then tell the manufacturer whats wrong.....duh. Go take a look at Greddys new T78 kit. It comes with a rebadged TIAL wastegate. Believe what you will.

Yeah, keep thinking China "steal" more than "Create"

China Receives More Patent Applications Than the US

you can believe whatever you want, but to think "China has no creativity and they only steal" is just plain stupid.

YES!

No kidding! They have WAY more people and the US damn near quit manufacturing things, of course they have more patent applications!

I said, "I don't buy Chineese knock offs", not that I dont buy Chineese. When you get that many people in a country with the industrial changes they are going through, you will have a ton of invention taking place. All I said was I don't buy the reverse engineered copies. They need to at least change something and make it their own before they go selling it. Most wastegates aren't that unique, but when they make a mold to produce EXACT copies I draw the line (for me).

Don't go putting words in my mouth. I didn't say they ONLY steal.

Do you also have a problem with some of the vendors on here who offer replicas of JDM parts. Whom often put out feeler threads to make sure its even worth stealing the R&D?

Just asking as ive seen this argument before.

as it was mentioned, sometimes competition is good and helps us all move forward.

think if all the car manufacturers out there said "someone else already made the automobile so we don't want to step on their toes" that you would ever be driving an RX7? we'd all be driving cars with wood spoke wheels that have a top speed of 25 mph and hand crank starters. which is also called a monopoly and gives no reason to ever evolve a product.

Read my reply 3-4 times then come back to me as you obviously didn't get the point.

:facepalm: You basically confirmed what I said.... Foreign companies apply their more stringent QC stardars on THEIR manufacturing plants that are located in china. But a full on China design to manufacture or a knock off company? I do not trust.

I believe what I see with my own two eyes and experience where I dealt with problems that I had to personally resolve due to quality control based out of China. I am not talking about some dinky small time HKS or greedy operations either. Think $100 million above companies where they have invested millions.

I'd say materials is only half the battle when looking at something like this. It's easy to look up what temps metal alloys can withstand, what chemicals are going to react with the material. Nothing proprietary about that.

The other half is the machining/assembly of parts. The extra steps like de-burring a thread so an adjuster doesn't stick or controlling dimensional drift on a journal diameter so it fits securely in a bearing. Features or tight tolerances that are deemed unnecessary are removed during the backwards-engineering process. And the associated cost is removed. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. But they don't have any responsibility if it fails. Think a customer is going to come knocking at their door for a $75 wastegate? Nope.

I really dislike the parts that are clearly branded in an attempt to mis-lead a customer. Unfortunately, it doesn't make sense to spend 100k in legal costs to shut down a company that is stealing 10k in sales. So there's no real downside for the producer. Requiring more vigilance from the end consumer who are rarely qualified to tell the difference.

Obviously a blanket all Chinese knock-off parts are Good/Bad isn't going to happen. But the first step is defining the problem better.

It's tough to say as the cost of living is much lower over there (but it still doesn't equal to what a worker gets here) and also no matter what they just didn't listen. Even when it was about safety.

I had this guy get smacked right on the head by a robotic arm and that was after being told NUMEROUS times to NOT stick his head in the work area. Sure enough one of the times that I was looking down SMACK! he ended up with a golfball size nugget right on the forehead :lol:. Luckily for him the machine didn't pin him between a pole as his melon would have exploded. No joke and actually quite dangerous. But what can you do? The designated area was clearly marked and they were told numerious times not to cross because of the danger as we where working with live units.

To put it mildly we were astonished at the lack of direction even at the expense of their well being. In every factory that I went it was basically the same struggle. Go figure :dunno: