bnr stage 3 ?'s
 

I am strongly looking into the controversial stage 3 bnr's. While looking through several forums tonight I saw one that said they couldn't be boosted past 17 PSI. I have one goal in mind, 400RWHP that's it. I know I have seen a couple ppl use the stock twins to hit that number, so what kinda power would bnr's at 17PSI be capable of? Also, what is a good amount of injectors to think about? 2 850cc 2 1300cc? Is there anyway to just have 1 1600cc? I am doing the whole fuel system within the next month of so, and I want to do my twins in a couple months. What are everyone's thoughts on running non seq with a non ported motor? And I know there are a lot of different fuel pumps out there, nippondenso, RP, supraTT which might even the the nippon, but yeah, with my goal, what would you guys recommend for me?

Go single, these have so many issues. Mine were just taken off due to oil leaks .For as many people that praise these there plenty that have been stung bye there claims .HP is a bit lower then advertised and hes still tweaking these .If you have the cash to pull, them in and out go for it

.Oh I had 850 primary and 1300 secondary, put 320 rw on the dyno, then one month later oil is venting out my bov, and into my intercooler .Turbo seals are gone

alot of people love them and alot of people hate them. I am in no rush to upgrade my turbos. Once these things are completely out of Beta testing i will probably go with the stage 3s.

One note...just cause one person got 412rwhp and another got 376 or something really doesnt mean much. Tuning means alot!

Re: bnr stage 3 ?'s
 

Honestly, the BNR's haven't been around long enough to see how far they can be pushed. Someone on here is already hitting 19 PSI on their BNR Stage 3's.

As far as a ported motor or not, if you are staying with twin turbos you'll make more power with a ported motor. With a single turbo, you can gererate good HP just fine with the stock ports (search for "ErnieT", running stock ports with a single turbo and his 10 second 1/4 mile pass).

As for fuel pumps, and fuel system upgrades in general, read Wade's site:

http://www.newwave.net/~flanham/wlanham/

It has enough information that you can make an informed decision on what best will suit your goals.

I keep hearing about probs with BNR's stage 3's. But havent heard a thing about their stage 1 or 2's. How are those?

I was wondering that same thing.

Ask to see the dyno numbers...I have YET after all the claims to see any big dyno numbers.;) Can you say restricted stock manifold...

The numbers they claim are backed by dyno numbers. If you go to the RX7store and look up the stage 3's there is a link at the bottom of the page for a dyno sheet. It was done at 1.14 on the PFC. Like pointed out before its all in the tuning and porting just like any other turbo kit you buy. You get a T78 and just slap it on and dont tune it your not going to make power. The BNR's are no different.

And the only problem with them as far as I know is they were getting 2 much oil which was caused by not enough oil feed restriction. This was basically causing them to fill up with oil. They are in the process of getting a restrictor pill in the correct size and sending it out to everyone. And for the people out there that had that problem, you dont have to pull the turbos off to replace a restrictor pill.

As for the mods list you are looking for, to hit 400rwhp 1300's and a Walbro pump, SMIC, PFC, and all the other normal upgrades. Also you need to budget $500 for tuning no matter if thats you spending $500 on a wideband to tune it yourself or spending $500 on a tuner. As for what turbo, thats just up to you. I hit over 400rwhp with my stage 3's and to be honest other than a good tuner dont have anything abnormal done to my car. I'd say if your goal is 400rwhp some stage 3's or a nice single like the GT35/40 would do good.

Good Luck,

well, people are claiming good dyno numbers..not everyone but people that have an excellent tuner close by are.

People are also claiming to smoke alot of other very high powered cars in the kill section with these.

I have also seen reports of traps in excess of 12xmph...thats pretty nice!

i know its nothing concrete but the owners like them...go into any section of this forum and you can read someone worshipping them. i say for the price they are worth it...ONCE the kinks get worked out. i would prefer to go big single too...just that i am not willing to dump that much money into this car. i want a bigger house!

*cough* *cough*

yawn

im going to take mahjiks job here and tell you to do a search for posts by kwikrx7 ...check them starting last year at this time...when he was having probs...and check them three months ago by the time he had all issues solved by bnr.


good luck homies...as matty is pointing out....its all in the tuning. ive pushed 381 so far and am not even close to done tuning...another session on the dyno will easily push me over the 400rwhp number. my timing needs to be tweaked and my fuel curve is way too rich up top. my low end and transition issues are very good though. time to clean up the top.


j

lol

Ok I deserve that, but since we were already on the subject... But thanks for a starting point though :)

well my car dyno'd at around 360 to the wheels at 15 psi. Steve Kan did the tuning.

kwikrx7's problems ended up NOT being turbo related like he thought it was at first. According to Brian (BNR), when he broke down kwikrx7's turbos there wasnt anything wrong with them. Brian sent them back to KD and they still werent spooling right and werent making any power. THEN KD replaced his rear diff and all was fine. The diff was going bad and not putting enough load on the engine, this was the problem the whole time.....not the turbos.

However once he got his car all back together and running properly he was VERY happy with it!!! He told me it was running awsome. He was running them seq and said they spooled faster than stock!!!

OH YEA!!! Also, dont forget kwikrx7 was running stage 2's NOT 3's.

STEPHEN

from what i remember stephen kwik had the first set of turbos sent back and the seals replaced....i forget the details....regardless he ended up being very happy with them.


j

I have seen 3 sets and not a one made more power than the stockers.

Here is what 362 rwhp gets you.
http://www.bridow.com/rx7/dragquick.html

Here is what 386 rwhp did (stock twins)
Anthonys 1993 Rx7 - 386 RWHP - 11.1@122.6 - Haltech Engine Management

One of the guys here on the forum made 402 hp on the stock block and the twins.

The dyno plot on Jasons forum is sae and not adjusted...

The B.S. gets old... the BNR's have yet to make any serious hp...I kept hearing 430 rwhp this and 465 that well what happened? ;)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by artguy
[B]yawn

im going to take mahjiks job here and tell you to do a search for posts by kwikrx7 ...check them starting last year at this time...when he was having probs...and check them three months ago by the time he had all issues solved by bnr.

**We just returned a set last week...leaking oil like the Valdez.


good luck homies...as matty is pointing out....its all in the tuning. ive pushed 381 so far and am not even close to done tuning...another session on the dyno will easily push me over the 400rwhp number. my timing needs to be tweaked and my fuel curve is way too rich up top. my low end and transition issues are very good though. time to clean up the top.

**Please post the dyno as I would like to compare it to some stockers..

my current dyno sheets for the m2 twins are here...

www.conceptart.org/dyno

notice the richter scale like effect on the charts past 5500 rpms...and the power fall off even though ive got a streetport...tis timing and fuel..too much fuel.

j

the more i hear, the more i think single. i'm looking for 400 rwhp eventually too. if i have to have my mechanic remove a set of upgraded twins once after they're installed, i'm pretty sure the cost difference between upgraded twins and a good single set up will be slim to none. i really want to stay with twins, but everything i read indicates that a single is the only way to guarantee i hit the 400 mark without alot of problems.

im not having any problems homie....you will have to deal with the same tuning issues I am if you go single.

cheers.


j

"The B.S. gets old... the BNR's have yet to make any serious hp...I kept hearing 430 rwhp this and 465 that well what happened?" MR RX7TT

What happened? Trapping 125 mph granny shifting, thats what happened... No one trapped more that 122 with the stockers. 2-3 mph is a 40 hp difference! That was with a full tank of premium gas with timing very conservative. My car is there with stephens, I just haven't ran it at the track or at the dyno. If you have a stock twin turbo car, and you want to race either stephen or I, we would be glad to show you the difference :).

Bryan
www.bnrsupercars.com

throw the smackdown!


:)

j

1) Kevin Wyum trapped 126 ...

2) There are a couple BNR's around here and all they have seen is my tail lights.

3) Don't spar with me... I was building race motors when you were on your schwinn. Ask Willie Rodriguez...

4) Show me a dyno...I showed you a 386 rwhp car and everyone knows of the 402 hp car with the stockers here on the forum. Ask Badog what hp he made on the "stockers"...It's now your turn to show me the 425-465 rwhp bnr car dyno. If you are selling a product and you are claiming hp #'s then show them. Take your car to a local dyno and post them. How about this Saturday?

5) Think of the area I am in and think of who you sold your turbos to. ;)

a right...and a left....another jab!

its an interesting argument here....the stock turbos frying along at ultra high boost levels...unreliable in my experience....heat heat heat....but they did get their milestone numbers didnt they.....and yes..i know some of you think they run fine at high boost....too bad the other ninety percent of us werent so lucky with pushing them.

vs.

the bnrs...up by a handful of hp over the stock set but obviously running at a cooler temp due to the large wheels...better efficiency....yet unfinished design issues cloud their success...

personally...i will never go back to the stock twins as they failed on me too many times under abusive boost. my m2's are holding up perfectly...they get just the right amount of oil with the restrictor pills....the question is...will the restrictor pills on the bnr set allow for enough oil to run reliably while at the same time keep the seals from leaking oil?

how does our story end folks? will the experienced veteran defeat the aspiring champion? Personally...im rooting for the upgraded twins...i hate those hitatchi fukkers.

;)


hey rxtt...will you post your mod list? Ive seen it Im sure..but i cant remember the specifics....do you have your own dyno sheets?


j

stock port?

thats pretty decent...there is more psi there...nice!

i used to think JUST like you man. I was one of the biggest skeptics on this board in regards to these turbos. Others have pounded into my head that the real benefit of upgrading is not to gain rwhp at said 15 psi but they enable you to run 17-19psi effeciently

If you dont mind please provide some details of your car. What rwhp, traps, etc...

guys this is a great thread and long over do..lets keep it going...

dd

the above looks like a good synopsis, but....how do we know they run at a cooler temp and will last?

and where is goodfellas...he loves these things.

the temp thing...its math...larger wheels need to spin less in order to get the same flow right? of course I know nothing about math ;)

the tests m2 did with their upgrades showed 25 degrees c in temp difference between them and the stockers. i dont know what the bnr temp differences are.


j

1) Sorry to break it to you but Kevin didnt trap 126 on stock twins they were upgraded by a shop to his specs and he wouldnt release the info as to what they were. Also, I was thinking it was a little less than 126 but might be wrong about that. In addition, from what I hear he was at an event at the time and had his car on a diet.

2) Explain how that is the turbos? How do we know everything else including thier tuning is "right"? There are pleanty of single turbo cars on the forum not making power, I guess we should use them as the yard stick to judge what those turbos are capable of....according to your thinking anyway.

3) So? What does that have to do with turbos? We supposed to respect you cause you claim to build "race engines"? It doesnt seem to be doing much for your dyno sheet.

4) The only dyno numbers that have been claimed are based one the dyno sheet thats been posted about 5000 times around this site. It can also be found at the RX7store as a link at the bottom of the stage3 page...like I mentioned in my last post. No one claimed any dyno numbers higher than my dyno. They claimed that dyno sheet and a 125mph trap with 100lbs of extra weight, granny shifting, and on 93 octane. If you work the math with the mph it leads to about 430ish. BUT, no one ever claimed it DYNOED 430ish.

5) Well, I cant reply to that cause I dont know who he sold turbos to or anything like that. I'm only commenting on my situation.

You never "kept" hearing anything other than what was done. I tell people exactly what my car does and thats it, nothing else. I've pointed this out to you before, you just keep acting like I havent.

STEPHEN

OUCH ...right in the ballz with that one.

hahahha...you guys are hilarious!!

"5) Think of the area I am in and think of who you sold your turbos too. " MR RX7 TT.

I tell you what, tell all the customers loacal to you that have the stage 3's, to come to Birmingham for the 2nd annual KAN Tuning Exhibition. We have about 10 planned on coming, 3 of my personal cars, and if more turn out, thats even better!

Bryan
www.bnrsupercars.com

hey, i have first hand experience with the stage 3's. they are amazing. they spool like seq. twins except w/o the hesitation. i was gonna trade my to4e for his twins. they were that amazing. theres a guy out here in tennessee that will more than prove what they can do. his car is absolutely amazing and if bryan has the oil thing done and squared away by the tuning event then hell be there. ill be there regardless as i only have minor stuff to get done. im willing to place a bet on the bnr's as opposed to the stock twins. they WILL outperform the stock twins.

paul

The guy who bought my car said my FD had much more low-end torque and a better power band than any stock-turbo FD he's ever driven. The stockers provide good power and have been proven (with good tuning) to put down 380+ rwhp at 17-18 psi - but most will only see 340-360 rwhp with normal bolt-ons and streetport at 14-15 psi.

I don't understand how some of you guys can't see the benefit of upgraded twins. The power was instantly noticeable. At 3K rpms I could nail it and all of my damn CDs would shoot out of my CD case under my radio - this wouldn't happen when I was running the stockers non-seq at 14-15 psi.

I don't know of any 380 rwhp FDs at 15 psi running a HF cat that are running the stock turbos. I know Goodfellas got 368 with a HF cat but his car was a freak - some can't even achieve that with a midpipe. My car had conservative tuning from KDR - with Kan tuning it could have been over 390 rwhp - we'll never know.

But my stage 2s friggen ripped - they easily outpowered and outspooled my stock turbos - but they need to be run at 15-17 psi to get the benefit from them.

Also, look at artguy's primary turbo in seq - how many stock turbos have achieved 210 rwhp on the primary before transition? Most stockers at 15 psi will see 180-185 max.

I love these threads....

werd

yes I have a stock ported motor...but they do not spool like sequential. Mine see full boost around 4200-4500 RPMS. I am not sure why the lag is so bad, sometimes it pisses me off and sometimes Im okay with it.

Hey Scrub. When the weather cools down, the car will wake up from hibernation! :) The stock port will not make much of a difference, but the good thing about a stock ported engine you can run more timing than a Street port. Mid range/bottom end can be improved by more timing and better A/F ratios. Tuning does some wonders. My car is a bit laggy, but I am running a base map so it needs some work done to it and I am sure then, it will rip. Above 5K, I couldn't ask for anything better. I did a second gear roll last night about 55 mph and I think I broke my ladder bar near my rear end :). Love it when the drivetrain is near its max!
Bryan
www.bnrsupercars.com

hey scrub. . . you need to get with some of the guys trying to get steve out to the NE. let him tune it and i KNOW youll see the reall bnr stage 3s.

paul

Hey Paul, what's it cost to get Kan to your area and how big of group do you need? That info would be very nice to have, especially since I have never even met the guy. All I know is his reputation, and that's solid gold!

Zach

Steve was just out here for rotorfest.....and he did tune my car :)

Ouch, talk about not seeing that one coming. :D

I agree with kwikrx7, the major benefit to getting upgraded turbos is that they can handle higher psi at lower temps than the stock turbos resulting in more power w/out as much lag as a single. I ordered the Stage 2's from bryan a few weeks ago and I should be getting them this thursday... I talked to bryan yesterday about my setup (3mm seals, street ported, 1300ccc's, FMIC, Power FC, the stage 2's at 17-19psi) and he said I should be putting around 400hp down to the ground. Anyway, hope everything works out and after seeing that 386hp can get you 11's I cant wait to get to the strip and hopefully get kicked out! :p:

-Tom

What's the differences between Stage 2 and Stage 3 BNRs?

if you want 400 rwhp, you need a single. BNR's are not going to get you 400 and they aren't going to last more than amonth.

no comment. . . . ;)

Does Garfinkle have the improved stage 3 set . He is installing something now . He is busy making parts and smilling .Rotorbrain may know and of course Feared7 knows

again. . . no comment. . .

I can neither confirm no deny.........are you the re-incarnation of Ollie North? :)

So, ZeroBanger you obviously have BNR's and have tried this !? Since you speak so intently on the matter !

Also you'd think with Water Injection ANYTHING is possible... I thought with WI 500HP was possible with a stock setup and No IC :rlaugh: ....