must be winter, rash of blown motors.

run your premix extra thick if you need to drive it and cross your fingers it isn't fractured in multiple spots.

what should be done to the tune to keep this from happening ? enriching it out ? retarding the timing? lowering the boost?

Aggressive timing on the FD is not a good idea, especially since you don't get much gain. It's always better to increase the boost for power instead of going with a bleeding edge timing. I use an across the board 12 split if I remember correctly (can't look at my maps right now).

It's not like a piston engine where you can just let it hit detonation then back it off, you never want to get even close to detonation.

Add a bunch of fuel to your boost cells and log it if possible, if not keep a good eye on the wideband. It's better to have too much fuel than too little, as you can just start taking small amounts out until you get to an ideal AF ratio.

The good thing about the PFC is that I have two tunes and just switch between them in the summer and fall.

Then again, I'm no expert. Even if you take it to a knowledgeable tuner though they're just going to work off a map that is close to your mods and do basically what I just mentioned.

Another thing you should really look into is an AI system. Even if you don't tune it for extra power it will give you an added level of prevention.

Wow that sucks :( But in time you'll get it rebuilt, I'm sure. You've still got good turbos and peripheral stuff on the engine, so its just internal work :)

Where I live, our temps are routinely between 8C and 15C (maybe a couple of 20-30C days a year, but not many at all) I'm on an island close to Antarctica, in the southern hemisphere. My car runs a stock ECU, and all stock under the hood. Stock boost, bone stock everything. Only aftermarket parts are Apexi rear muffler, wheels, etc. Powertrain is stock, exhaust is next to stock. Still has the cat converter and everything. Just clocked 91,000km. Compression is perfect. I run it to about 8 or 9 psi in 2nd gear every so often, but never hit the limiter.

Am I in danger of blowing an apex seal in my climate temps? We never really have a summer, its just 10-12C all year round. (which is a bit depressing). Karack, any thoughts? Anyone?

Well out of desperation I started it up tonight to limp it home and still idols like shizer, that was expected. They only thing was it was nasty rich and white smoke coming from exhaust. So I shut it off and got a ride home in the chance that it is just a coil. Wouldn't want to ruin anything that I don't have to. And I am in the same boat as you on funds I pay off the balance of the motor at the end of the monththe last 2800 and I can't afford to spend more on it right now. If its not the coil then its going back into storage and will spend another couple grand on a better build in the spring. What baffles me is that colder temp equals more dense air and I was running 93 octane with octane booster with a great liberal tune for 300 rwhp. I just can't believe these things are that fragile. Ill keep you posted.
And sorry for taking over your thread

^ I think you should be ok - as long as your boost stays in check you should be fine.
We have a similar climate to you.(NZ) and it sounds like your car is setup similar to mine.
Except im running the 16bit ECU, 3mm seals, intake and exhaust.
I regularly hit 0.8bar of boost (and the rev warning beep in first / second gears) and have been doing so for around 4 years now with no problems.

Thanks 96FD3S, I appreciate it :) So sounds as though if the boost & mixtures are kept in check, there should be no dramas in cool climates.

Where does the FD actually take its air intake temp readings from? I just realized I never knew (or I'm having a mental blank here)..
Edit: and sorry for taking over your thread OP, I'm just interested in how to avoid these sorts of situations too :(

The AIT sensor is located on the underside of the UIM, you need to remove it to get to it.

Look up info on the fast AIT sensors, the stock one is known for inaccurate readings. Wannaspeed sells them as well as a couple other places I think, including a plug and play adapter for it. The adapter is nice in ease of installation plus it makes getting the UIM on and off easier as the wiring is longer.

On a stock car you don't have to worry about this stuff as much, but a modded car with a sloppy tune (or bleeding edge one) is where the problems begin.

Yeah, definitely get one of the faster air intake sensors. It's a very noticeable difference. Prior to my runs, I remember sitting at a light near my place and my intake temps going up to past 35C. Obviously I didn't pull hard from the light, but just cruised away and in about 2 seconds, the temps dropped to 25C. The engine wasn't completely warmed up but I would assume that if the stock sensor was still reading 35C if you pulled away hard, and the air was actually 25C, then that 10C different would cause your A/F ratio to be insanely high.

I've been reading up a lot on AI and it's very interesting. Particularly because it's a little bit difficult for me to get anything above 91 octane so AI seems like a good alternative. Probably would have saved my apex seals this past weekend, but then again, I probably would have had a more aggressive tune.

It may just need a few new rotor seals and a gasket kit. And lots of elbow grease which is FREE.

i'd like to think that they don't use the stock preloaded timing maps, but who knows.

Heres in my contribution to this thread:

ALS SEALS, get familiar with them and actually get to drive your car for extended periods of time. A few PSI of boost creep should not send seals shooting out the exhaust, this isnt 2003 anymore.

But what do I know.

Edit:

To quiet the haters for the last 5-600 miles on my personal fd I have been running 16-17lbs on a Pettit ECU and stock fuel. Car was spiking to 18lbs at transition and usually settling on 16lbs in this cooler weather.

Drove around on the stock ecu for a couple weeks hitting 13-14psi of boost(when fuel cut didnt kick in) with no issues.

They arent miracle seals and wont cure cancer but the ALS seals is the answer for 95% of FD owners. If you want to know about long term results(50,000 miles +) compared to OEM seals and housing wear, I dont have the answers. But with factory seals and other comparable seals no one is making it to 50K miles these days anyways. ;)

be sure to elaborate on it.

even more durable seals will not prevent the engine from twisting, cracking the dowel pins and pissing oil all over the engine bay. with everything there always seems to be a tradeoff. for the best results i do think you will see best results sacrificing seal life for a softer less brittle seal, pin the motor so it can't twist and be more conservative with ignition timing.

most people do not set up their fuel systems adequately either. reusing old injectors, using stock pump wiring, neglecting the fuel filter, running the limit of pump gas. those all contribute to even a well built motor failing.

Mine did the same thing in September, 1500 miles on rebuild. Car is stock except M2 intake and Koyo radiator, it won't even start now...

I always clarify it isnt a miracle seal. But there is no reason so many engines should be shitting seals just because of a little cooler air and 2-3 more psi of boost. The average FD owner is not twisting their engine with 15-16 psi of boost and a 425-450 rwhp setup.

If guys are cracking irons or slammimg rotors into the irons they are pushing the limits or doing something really wrong.

It just drives me crazy to see guys tossing engines every 2-4k miles because they wanted a seal that lasted 100k miles with their housings:lol: It doesnt add up.:scratch:

The ALS seal is no miracle seal, in my opinion it is just a step better than the RA superseals as it isnt as aggresive on the housings. The RA superseals are still a great seal as well, I just believe the ALS is the better option. With that said I would still run the RA superseals before I threw stock seals back in a FD I plan to actually drive and drive hard. Unless guys port the wastegates and keep a stock exhaust on a FD we know it is going to boost spike and creep.

From the stories in this thread it would appear these guys did a couple hard pulls in cool weather and that is all she wrote. Stories like that are why FDs have the reputation they have. For years now there have been solutions to this yet so many are hesitant to try any thing other than Mazda parts or other seals that have been out since the 90s.

missed the point, if the seal can handle the event then it is likely something else is going to give in return. next in order of failure is the irons. but 1 iron is cheaper than a rotor, housing and set of seals.

and not saying you're wrong but more safety measures should be included, just replacing the seals with something more durable isn't going to make the issues disappear, they will resurface in a different area. detonation and preignition is violent, it breaks things no matter how hard you try to prevent it from doing so. if not the irons then the rotor compression faces cave in, the eccentric shaft deflects and mashes the rotor into the opposing rotor housing wall sticking the seals, etc, etc, etc.

the best cure all is a good setup and a good tune. my shitty brittle as hell atkins seals are going on over 60k miles now. if anything happens i'll likely lose a small chip on a seal or 2 and likely that's all. at any rate, everything seems to always have a tradeoff.

I just want to put my 2 cents in but I'm not too knowledgeable about the internals specifically so don't hate!

It just seemed like it was terrible luck... My temps weren't too low (like I said 30C intake after driving for about 40 minutes, only went up from there to almost 38,39C after the runs), this is California, not the East Coast, "cold" is hardly relevant. I lived in Vancouver, Canada most of my life and it's not even that cold and California has never even gotten near the same temps.

I had my secondaries built up to 1300cc, a conservative tune (290whp on 13 PSI in sequential, isn't that VERY conservative?), 2mm Atkin seals, OEM springs, dual oil coolers, v-mount, premix (idemitsu with 1oz per 4 gallons), still have OMP too.

To me, that just seems like a very conservative and safe set up. What I'm trying to say is, with the temps I was getting, it just seems like purely bad luck considering my set up is not that much over stock...

Maybe I should get ceramic 3mm 2-piece seals with meth injection and titanium rotors. And maybe if I run 290whp on that, it'll be fine :S Hahaha

right, it's not built up so the best bet is to find the root cause and repair it. perhaps the pump wiring took a dump and the AFRs spiked or one of the injector clips rattled loose... be thorough while disassembling things and make a list of anything that could possibly be the cause of the problem and fix them.

Not to sound like a jerk, or point fingers.. But I would see if you can't have your maps pulled and evaluated by a competent third party (rotary) tuner.

I had a pretty bad tune put on this summer as well (at the end of July) that was rich as shit and backfired A LOT! When I finally took it in to have the map fixed (I was getting a bigger exhaust put in) we realized that I was actually making MUCH less horsepower than I thought I was, the ignition timing was way off, the fuel curves barely had any "curves" to them, and it all resulted in my rear apex seals warping.

This was after driving my BRAND NEW engine for three months. I'm not going to get into who did the tuning because it was not done on the west coast and is of no real pertinence to this thread.

I would really suggest having that validated though, if only so you don't take your next engine to that same tuner and take the chance that this may all happen again.

You may not want to baby it around, because you could cause more damage. Get yourself a cheap DD, put storage insurance on the FD and save up for your rebuild. Wouldn't want to have the rest of the seal leave the motor and take out your irons and turbos in the process.

I know exactly what you are trying to say, didnt miss your point. But please show me more than one fluke example of someone cracking an iron on a REW block with less than 500rwhp. It doesnt happen. Yes, something caused his ATKINS seals to break, I would bet with ALS seals(near guarantee but that is impossible to know) he would still be driving his car.

I love Atkins and the guys over there. I put a lot of FDs back on the road with their seals and sold a bunch of engines with their seals. However, when a small boost spike and detonation sends a small piece of the long seal through your engine and turbo causing damage(sometimes worse than others depending on luck) I wanted a better solution.

I ran the Super Seals for awhile and still say they are a great option for those looking to beat on their car and not worry every time they let off throttle. They just wore on the housing too much for my likings.


Along with water injection I can agree with that. However most dont have a good tune and wont get one. They will bolt on the parts and start beating on the car. The FD owner of today is far different than the typical FD owner of 2002. For the most part the entire country is pinching pennies right now.


Never once said Atkins seals were shitty or brittle, I am just saying from my experience there is a better option. It really shouldnt matter to me what seals people use, but those who know me know that I hate garage queen FDs and people who own FDs but are scared to beat on and enjoy them.

For those reading, the ALS seal cant fix other issues outside of the block that cause failure. But for the typical FD owner, shy of denting the rotor face so bad you pinch an apex sea,l these seals will keep your engine running. They cost a little more than the other options and are often back ordered. Spend the money and wait a couple extra weeks if your engine is down for a rebuild. I promise its worth it.

Well changed out coil pack this afternoon and loath and behold same shitty running and idol. I'm not surprised.
Well hopefully rotary performance will make good on there warranty cause this motor bailly has 3000something miles on it. There is no way it should have gone. My last motor lasted 120,000 miles driven hard with same amount of boost the only reason that motor went is cause I hit a curb drifting in the rain and jarred the front end. But that's another story. So if rp won't warrant the building who makes a good rebuild kit as I'm sure building these motors isn't very hard after watching a few good videos seems easy enough. Clearanceing the side seals is just the most time consuming. So back to my question who has the best/easiest kit I've heard to use Mazda oil seals as they fit better than Atkins do, any thoughts?

As a new owner stories like these make me worried, I can't get through the reliability upgrades fast enough.

Reno, also keep in mind the amount of (positive) stories you're NOT hearing about. Done right the cars are just as reliable as any other. The primary thing which sets the rotary apart is that it has very little (read: almost zero) patience for things done wrong. There are TONS of people who have little to no problems with them, you're just not hearing about it because they have no reason to post up that everything is still going well.

In all honesty my rotary has been absolutely SOLID for the majority of my five year ownership, and I beat on my car almost every day when I was living in England!

Just keep that in mind, that for every bad story told, there are probably about 100 good stories that just aren't being recorded.

Do your research, modify with a purpose in mind, understand what that purpose entails, don't skimp on quality parts and quality tuning, and you'll enjoy the living crap out of your FD!