Why do you keep making things personal? You didnt know that I've owned 3 other NA rotarys so I know what reliability is. If you dont like the subject, then dont participate in the thread. :confused:

You went down that road when you posted negatively on a thread you have zero interest in. This is the equivalent of hating on a actor like Jim Carry and then complaining about his next movie you paid and went to see.

If this were the fb or fc section then yes because you have NA versions already that you can improve on. I dont think anyone who drives a turbo fc would ever remove that engine to install a NA 6 port in it's place

The 2nd gen makes a lot of sense even if its a TII because there is this thing called racing. There are more classes for an NA 2nd gen than turbo plus the chassis is happiest under 300rwhp as its rather primitive and wheel/tire limited.

In my area, a local guy pulled the 6 cyl out of his 300zx for a 4cyl SR20. According to him, this will save a "ton of weight and increase reliability". This thread is equally retarded.

If you going to go N/A build a 3 rotor or a 4 rotor. Otherwise, keep what Mazda intended in your car. There's years upon years of information in this forum to make your car reliable.

No, the SR20 Z could make sense if he is racing. The SR has more development/parts, *could* handle better and could class lower in racing.

I have a dyno shop owner friend with a built VG35 Z31 and the engine can make torque, but it can't rev and it can't race as he can't get oil/coolant temps under control.

As far as NA 2 rotor FD- again, racing.

If it allows you to run in a class where you will be more competitive it is a good idea.


Would you rather race an RX-3 in SCCA GT3 class or an FD RX-7 with the same bridgeport 12A at the same minimum weight?

The choice is obvious under those circumstances. Now for a pure street car, NA 13B in fd makes no since to me when I know a well cared for stock fd will go over 100k. Mine did! :)

i moved cars around today, so i just drove a 280ps spec FD (engine/trans/turbos/ecu) back to back with a P port 12A 1st gen.

i like the FD, its quiet, smooth and fast, the extra 30hp is totally noticeable.

the P port is much more immediate, it revs faster, throttle response is instant. it is huge fun. it also idles @900rpm, makes peak power @5500 (with the stock 12A air cleaner, another 50hp with something better), gets better gas mileage than a 6 port 13B, was cheap to build and uses almost no fancy parts.

in short the P port is just better.

In the grand scheme of things, do you really think thats impressive long term reliability? NA fb and fc last for 200k + all day every day. Where do you think the rotary got its reputation of reliabilty from? It damn sure wasnt from the fds history. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. Your average turbo rotary isnt going to last as long a its NA version. History has proven that.

Well the early S1 Renesis is that one shamefull exception.

Lastly the reliabilty on custom built projects is based on the "builders" skill level and knowledge and not the engine itself.

It wasn't personal, there is a growing group of you guys.:)


I love Jim Carrey:egrin:

Q
 

Of course 64k isnt impressive but its better than 100 miles in 10 years. :) Stop taking things personal by the way.

So what does that teach us about the skill level of all the guys going 20B? :lol: :lol:
You make it too easy.

First you are comparing cars with a 5-700lb weight difference between the two.

Secondly, my ported FD idles at 850 all day long, around 900 with the Ice cold AC blowing on a 95 degree day.

Thirdly, you are telling me a NA PPort 12A has better throttle response and revs faster than a properly running sequential 13B-Rew? I have very little experience with NA rotaries but man I find that hard to swallow. :scratch:

Well were trying to catch up to all the LS1 convesions and keep things rotary. It's been a struggle. ;)

Full out race cars are the only way to justify any NA FD, I dont care the amount of rotors you put in it.

Unfortunately work never takes me down that way. I cant believe someone hasnt jumped all over that car. Has to be a blast to drive a sequential 13B-REW FB. Would be interesting to see a dyno chart from that car and compare to the PP 12A that is now mentioned in this thread.

That we can agree on, I still prefer the NA20B over the LS swap. :nod:

What it tells me is that we have a lack of information sharing in the 'community'. This is ultimately what drove me to sell my car.

This guy doesn't track race. He just wants a reason to sound like he's doing something smart for reliability and less weight. Lets look at statistics, who the heck chooses a 300zx + SR platform in reality? Its just as senseless as buying an FD and removing the turbos :)

Regarding the SR20, why not just buy a 240 shell and swap an SR20 if the concern is weight. Its sooo much effort to do a motor swap for LESS hp. Spending all that money, time, and knuckle busting for hardly any result. That effort could be spent on better oil coolers/radiators/twin-turbos etc...

The same thing it taught all the early fd builders who blew engines in their quest for more power. The beneficiaries are guys like you who get to sit back and watch all the carnage and learn other ways to go about it and not lose as much money. You learn what you learn from others mistakes. Someone had to be brave enough to stick a nozzle in the intake and spray water down the engine while it was boosting right? Someone has to be the sacrificial lamb right? You know exactly what I've been trying to do with my project so you know that I have ZERO usfull info out there to help me with this. All I have is my will, and faith. It just sucks that we early adapters of NA 20B tech dont get the support of rotar heads in general. That's a downer.

:lol:

Driving the car actually makes me laugh out loud. It has a nice silent old school FB racing beat exhaust. The motor is mounted to the old school trans with super short gearing and 13in tires.

At first glance, everyone thinks you're cruising around in a dinky NA 13b/12a. Then they hear the hilarious whoosh of the primary turbo kick in and the tires instantly light up no matter the gear. You can blast hills in 5th all day. THE MOST FUN CAR EVER.

And for all the 13b NA lovers....sorry but you aren't going to blast up a hill in 5th without a primary turbo. That's why we swapped engines :)

FB + TURBO Rew = Smiles. Exactly the opposite of this thread. Everyone is welcome to take a ride and tell me that it should be De-tuned.

Not being a smart ass, what information where you needing you couldn't find? I'm not sure there are many secrets left. Most of the top HP guys are surprisingly willing to share info if that is what you are after. The road race/autox formula seems to be sorted out as well, smallish turbo, race fuel/e85 and high boost. Most knowledgeable shops dont share info on the forums because of the drama that gets stirred up and they get questioned/harrassed by guys who have built 1-2 rotaries when these guys have built hundreds with proven track records of racing/winning.

Extremely valid point actually. :icon_tup:

Strictly speaking around the 20B swap (FD3S) which is one of the reasons why there are so many failed rather than successful projects. You can likely dig, to found answers on many of the nuances of the swap, but it's scattered and not easy to know the correct from the incorrect without going through some trial an error. I've seen other car forums which are more more open with sharing in general.

^ Are we talking years ago or recenly? I started a thread years ago showing people the things involved with moving the engine back if thats the route you wanted to take.

Depends on what you call 'recently'. ;) I haven't seen just a basic guide of "Here how you put a NA 20B in your FD" guide around anywhere. I'm not suggesting the information isn't around, but again it's scattered through bits and pieces of crap that individuals have to sift through. You being familiar with the swap, likely have an easier time knowing the good from the bad.

IMO, there would be more "successful" swaps with proper information available.

^ Well I think one of the main reasons why you may not see that type of thread anytime soon is because of how many variations you can build an NA setup. With a 20B turbo setup, yeah it's pretty universal for what you've seen on a forum throughout the years but na is a totally different animal. There is a ton of science involved with header lengths, intake runner lengths, and where you want the power band to fall. Then there is the noise factor. If you build someone's basic setup, then at some point that setup may not be what you want and you're going to change some things. Once you go full on na intake, you're pretty much stuck with what you have unless you completely reengineer the entire setup hence why Gordon had Logan go through so many different designs and spent so much money. With a turbo, its so much easier just to install a bigger intercooler, larger turbo, and crank up the boost to get more power. Plus you have the benefit of low boost and high boot settings. Traditionally, that's one thing that ain't happenin with an NA unless you run nitrious. The intake design that I engineerd hopefully could be a one-size-fits-all solution but we'll see :)

Ill definitely agree with you on this point.

Most of the 20b swaps around here (turbo and NA) do not mention the details as alot of the owners have had a shop do the conversion. Alot of these 20b threads rant on and on about shops, labor, prices rather than the nitty gritty details and info is spewed all over the place.

One of the most helpful guys to me so far has been Banzai Racing. He's helped me to seperate the BS and get down to the facts.

Theres so many Little things like which size fittings, shimming the crank wheel for FD water pump, interchangability of TPS etc that add up.

So far, it doesn't appear that there is anything one thing that is hard about this swap, its just you must have every single little part. Waiting/ordering/budgeting is difficult if you have not pre-planned every nut and bolt.

Hopefully, if this works out as planned, I may be able to assist in a general write-up of how to do a dramaless 20b swap in under 10 years. :lol: However, I'm certainly not going to speak to soon.

He is who I would recommend as I have very little knowledge on the 20B swaps. Banzai built their 20B car, made impressive HP numbers and the engine bay looks like a show car yet runs fine. No crazy drama, or him tearing the car apart 10 times. I check in on his thread every so often because it is really impressive.

I will admitt! After going through all the hoopla of my personal project, building a basic 20b turbo setup with a genetic aftermarket subframe would be a piece of cake. Once you've completed the 1st build, the following ones are easy. It's that initial learning curve that sucks. :)

i know, the FD is fun too.

my P port can do a track day in 95 degree heat and the water temp stays at 85c... its apples and oranges.

yep. no comparison. the REW is like swimming through molasses.

^ lol on the molasses.

That's really not what I'm referring to... Just your basic "get the engine in the car and wired up" guides. Nothing. Yes, I think everyone understands there are going to be variations. Doesn't matter to me as I've already moved on, but the community is going to continue a downward spiral unless folks begin to help each other out. Options like the 20B are things which can bring owners like Gordon (ones with good lots of disposable cash) into the car. Heck, there are a lot of cars out there people buy just because of the amount of information on swaps they can do with them. It's sad when there is more information readily available about swapping a V8 into a FD3S than another/stronger rotary engine.

It is sad but at the same time, you cant just go find a 20b at your average junk yard like you can with a LS1. I cant think of another v8 engine that will give you 400 reliable hp in a decent sized package that fit neatly in the fd engine bay that's so readily available. Also C-lugwig has put together some very helpfull info in the Haltech section on wiring up a 20b. Your right as we're long over due for a basic how to thread. Since I already started one years back on how to move the engine back, maybe I could expand upon it with links and info.

Mods with N/A are far less dramatic. You will be lucky to gain 5 hp with cold air intake and exhaust you will almost certainly end up pouring 20k on mods just to have as much power as you started with. Besides BOOST is possibly the most addictive thing on this planet. Look at the video in this thread could you handle that noise on a Sunday cruise?


EDIT: sorry for keeping this old thread alive

didnt know that , and heck I wouldnt do it myself .. I love the turbos way tomuch FD was my first turbo car and when all the turbo issues are finally settled . just tomuch fun! also torque LOL


BUUUTT .... say for example .

Someone wanted an FD that looks nice .. handles / drives nice has enough power to be fun . around a twisty road . there are those kind of people out there .


a street ported NA rotary . can do 200 whp . Which will be reliable , fast enough to be decent ( look at S2000 / BRZ / rx8 neither of those cars make 200whp ) and they have a reliable FD ..

YES it would be the slowest running FD in HISTORY! LOL . But it would be faster then the above cars .. those cars are decent . IF someone reallly wanted to go NA route ...

BUt you would essentially be pouring money into the car to make it slower ...

That's just an excuse. It doesn't matter how readily available something is... IMO, the 20b swap is something that could really keep the FD going for a very long time if the community rallied around it rather than using it as a trophy for those who can "figure it out".

There you go proving my point. ;)

I hope you do as I know many people who would pick up FD if they could see the 20b swap as something immediately viable. To be honest, I would likely reconsider another FD in few years with that information available.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a known one in the US like this.. The owner wanted a reliable NA FD and made it so... Folks over and Japan had been doing it for years as there used to be old videos of NA 2-rotor FD's with open exhausts annoying motorists.

Today, given the HP of most popular sports cars, it's not likely to be a realistic option for current owners or perspective owners. It would only be an option for someone looking to build a track car. However, given the 7's Only Racing tube-framed race cars are now around, it's not likely someone would make a NA 2-rotor FD track car. NA 3-rotor, now that would be a different ballgame. ;)

if they sold easy kits for it like they do for V8's basically bolt everything up get the car on the road in 2 months it would be a great sell point . All the fabrication is probably what turns people away .

Also if there were base maps that came with the kit . along with an ECU . so you could safely drive the car . basically make the swap idiot proof LOL

Have you seen what guys are doing with the BW EFR turbos and E85? I can't see why any one would go the route of the 20B unless it is for the goal of 1000RWHP or as a dedicated competitive track car.:scratch:

Its the pricing that turns people away, that has always been the problem. I think Pettit was the first to offer a turn key package which was around $35k for a stock twin 20B:lol: Only suckers with more money than sense paid for it. The FD chassis is incredible but when you start paying supercar money to build one for the street you realize quickly you could have had a supercar with more comfort and better value. Ill always have a FD, its just part of my life. However, I realize when cost vs performance stops making sense. Maybe I am just too conservative with my money.

I guess I need to get behind the wheel of a PP NA 2 rotor at some point. Is the gearing crazy in the PP car? It is just a really hard pill to swallow.

Most of the guys are know who would look at the car are track guys so that is their use case (as well as mine). Although, one of them is already competing with a FD, but it's a V8 FD:

Rupert Berrington Action Photography | 2014 NASA TT HPR | 183_TTNASA_10

I know I am at risk of sounding like an elitist, but...

If putting a 20B in an FD was really easy and documented like a Honda/240 swap would there be a single 20B available to purchase? At what price.

How many low production JC Cosmo 20Bs were built?

Personally, I am fine with experienced shops charging rich people an arm or a leg to do a 20B swap or only mechanically adept people doing them on their own.

Just keeps the 20B price down. Even at $6k a 20B is as "cheap" as the common as dirt Skyline RB26 you know...

And that's the kind of mentally which will continue to de-value this car (and the rotary motor in general), allow "kids" to continue to buy and crash them, and have those who maybe would come and contribute to the community have no desire to... However, it's your community so shape it however you want...

What bothers me is the elitist mentality associated with this 20b engine. The truth is that a 700hp 20b cant possibly be that much more effort than a 700hp 13b. Those who have paid a shop $50,000 or spend 15 years are not going to come in here and encourage this swap. Many people, myself included, have been discouraged of the possibility that they could perform the swap in a reasonable time if they budget properly and understand/prepare for whats necessary. I'm willing to bet that for every incomplete 20b swap there's probably 100 single turbo 13b builds that NEVER run.

I spent last year building a 500+hp 13brew and realized with just a little more motivation and dedication to save up money, I could have built the 20b that I thought was unreachable. I've had people tell me "don't sell your 13b, chances are you will never get the 20b running, too many people have failed."

This is exactly the problem. This is exactly what Mahjik is reffering too and I couldn't agree more. In fact, this is part of my motivation to perform the swap.

What this forum needs is a list of all the necessary parts in detail, every nut and bolt, showing a realistic representation of what it takes labor/parts/cost/budget wise to build a 20b. This way, people can decide for themselves based upon their budget/time rather then an opinion of those who entered the swap and failed from lack of knowledge or unexpected cost. Banzai has a very good list and write-up on his website. It is certainly a very expensive swap, but no one said that a high horsepower 13b was cheap either.

In the end, its just another engine. If humans can go to the moon, 20b swaps can't be that hard.

Now, I could very well end up looking back at this post in a decade and saying jeez, I still haven't finished :) But, in the meantime, the engine has arrived, hes been sent off and returned rebuilt, all the parts are here, the subframe is installed and its only been 4 weeks, so far so good.



On a side note, I'm so tired of porsches, lambo's, ferrari's etc. So you went out and spent $100,000 on a "supercar" and there's 1000 more of them here in the U.S. Thanks for showing me the car that ferrari built. Even if the cost of the 20b is high, and it may seem more reasonable to buy a GT3, whats impressive about writing a check? The blood, sweat, tears, hours of researching, hours on the phone, behind a motor swap is what makes my heart race. The moment where you start up the beast that everyone said was a waste of time and money is PRICELESS. This car can easily stay alive and this community needs help.




BY THE WAY<<<< THIS THREAD HAS GONE WAY OFF TOPIC>>>>

So what did you end up replacing it with?

Just to note, the value/price of a clean FD or well built one has sky rocketed in the last 12 months with the economy improving. Hard to touch a decent example under $16k and that is with higher miles. Of course there are exceptions but most owners are not letting them go without being compensated well for what they have. Rare to find a roller these days and blown motor cars are pulling $10k.

A race prepped S2000:

http://mahjik.homestead.com/files/ho...C/IMG_2306.jpg
http://mahjik.homestead.com/files/ho...30_163356s.jpg

I followed Rob Robinette. :p: It's not nearly as fast as my old FD, but I've spent more time on track with it rather than working on it which was the goal.

I was just using the junkyard findings as the way to illustrate why there are so many ls1 swaps compared to the 20B. More install info on 20b's would help, but it would have never really changed that outcome simply because the 20b would just require more money and work to make the same power.

You know I would love to get a buttload of aftermarket support for the rotary in general. It would be nice to open up a Jegs catalog and see rotary crate engines like you see with the domestics. Or be able to order an install kit to put a 20b or Renesis in other Mazda vehicles that was plug & play. Those sorts of things would be really neat.

That likely won't happen as you suggest, but it definitely won't happen without a thriving community. I'm hoping the RX7 community changes, but posts in this thread show a lot of determination for that not happening.

i was talking about in neutral, but the P port has better response in gear too.

its apples to oranges, i have a proper port, and you have a weak little flabby port.

but yeah if you haven't done a P port you're missing out

i agree, i started my 20B FC swap 1/1/2002, and it made noises on the stock ecu in march, ran on the haltech in may and i drove to sevenstock in september? october? we can look its in the Rx7 magazine. it made a second sevenstock trip the next year, and then i daily drove it for a while

i spent WAY less than most, although i didn't open the engine, and i ran as many stock parts as i could, i think there were about 8 aftermarket parts on the whole car when i was done.

the FD is a little harder, just because of the space issues

actually i'm wrapping up an REW swap into an FC, and it has been much harder, nothing fits.

Been following the recent posts in this thread and thought I'd chime in as I am one of the 12 or so guys that plunked down the $35K for the Pettit "Banzai" 20 B conversion.

First, here is a Sport Compact article from 1998:

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1405774411

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1405774411

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1405774411

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1405774411

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1405774411

And the last two pages:

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1405774679

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1405774679

Good history from 1998 to keep things in perspective. Pettit was the only shop at the time to market 20B conversions and they did around a dozen of them before discontinuing the Banzai program. Mine was the last conversion to be performed in 2004. As an aside, the car pictured in the magazine was subsequently sold at Barrett Jackson in 2006 for over $52K.

I had the conversion done for two reasons. First, I wanted to celebrate the sale of my software company and two, I wanted to up my performance level while sticking with a rotary platform. Cam Worth of Pettit had previsouly taken me for a ride in the car pictured in the article and the performance and torque of the 3 rotor had me hooked. In its day, 550 HP (abound 425+ WHP) was really good and the torque difference between that and my 2 rotor (310 WHP at the time) as very noticeable. 2 rotors during that era were pretty much like mine, making 300 - 350 WHP but that was about it. I can remember when the first person on this forum broke the 400 WHP level and it was big news. Now it's common place. I also remember when 600 WHP was first made on a 3 rotor and that was considered crazy. Compare that to last time I dyno'd my 20B and made 675 WHP at 18 PSI and guys on the forum asked why I had such little power :)

Now the point in all of this. Each person has individual goals and desires and we should embrace this diversity. We also have different levels of technical capabilities so not all of us want (or should) do our own work. I'm not the guy you want to rebuild your engine but I do other things really well, like build and sell companies. On my car, you'll see me working on basic stuff (and LED lighting) but I leave the bigger things to the experts. And even with this, my saga with the 20B build has been a long and painful path. I do share everything in my build thread though with hopes that I can help someone else avoid the mistakes I've made.

I guess I am saying to each his own. So, i appreciate what others do and applaud those like t-von that are pushing the envelope with engine builds. I do know what he is working on, and it is a really cool idea should it pan out. But back on point, do what makes you feel good and spend the amount of money you wish. Be happy at the end of the day.

Final note. Very happy to see 2 rotors now making big power and being relatively reliable. The Borg Warner EFR turbos are a game changer for 2 rotors. Throw in some water injection and it's hard to beat the power and performance.