How to value your FD
03-23-17, 08:36 PM
#152
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I appreciate the car just fine, the sample of the FD community I'm getting not so much. It's almost like a cult following rather than a group of people that enjoy all cars equally or maybe even more accurately that group that would be cool if they weren't so douchy..
I apologize for commenting on this thread as it was nothing more than an attempt to get everyone to drive up their cars worth and suck each other off while doing so.
I apologize for commenting on this thread as it was nothing more than an attempt to get everyone to drive up their cars worth and suck each other off while doing so.
03-23-17, 08:57 PM
#153
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I appreciate the car just fine, the sample of the FD community I'm getting not so much. It's almost like a cult following rather than a group of people that enjoy all cars equally or maybe even more accurately that group that would be cool if they weren't so douchy..
I apologize for commenting on this thread as it was nothing more than an attempt to get everyone to drive up their cars worth and suck each other off while doing so.
I apologize for commenting on this thread as it was nothing more than an attempt to get everyone to drive up their cars worth and suck each other off while doing so.
It's absolutely a cult following and we prefer to keep it that way. If you don't bleed FD then get the **** out of here
03-23-17, 09:46 PM
#154
I appreciate the car just fine, the sample of the FD community I'm getting not so much. It's almost like a cult following rather than a group of people that enjoy all cars equally or maybe even more accurately that group that would be cool if they weren't so douchy..
I apologize for commenting on this thread as it was nothing more than an attempt to get everyone to drive up their cars worth and suck each other off while doing so.
I apologize for commenting on this thread as it was nothing more than an attempt to get everyone to drive up their cars worth and suck each other off while doing so.
You come in here with a big mouth, little ears, and an uninformed and unwelcome opinion about our cars. I don't know why you expected some sort of welcoming party. Go tell PCA or NASIOC their cars aren't that great and let me know how it goes.
Shut up, read up, and pony up. Or, **** off.
Any which way, we'll be here enjoying and appreciating our FDs.
03-23-17, 10:11 PM
#155
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Actually this whole thread is about people asking too much for their FDs recently. If anything it drives down prices and encourages **** kickers like you to come knocking.
You come in here with a big mouth, little ears, and an uninformed and unwelcome opinion about our cars. I don't know why you expected some sort of welcoming party. Go tell PCA or NASIOC their cars aren't that great and let me know how it goes.
Shut up, read up, and pony up. Or, **** off.
Any which way, we'll be here enjoying and appreciating our FDs.
You come in here with a big mouth, little ears, and an uninformed and unwelcome opinion about our cars. I don't know why you expected some sort of welcoming party. Go tell PCA or NASIOC their cars aren't that great and let me know how it goes.
Shut up, read up, and pony up. Or, **** off.
Any which way, we'll be here enjoying and appreciating our FDs.
03-23-17, 10:23 PM
#156
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ah oh no!
If you consider any of that a big mouth you need to get some thicker skin buddy. Yup a whole pack of Chihuahuas all bark and look at me im so great. You know what's tough is actually coming to terms with the value of your car no matter how cult inspired you may be. I am part of a few different threads that all understand their cars true value and don't try to bite someone's head off the instant they bring an outside view, oh well I guess this group still has some growing up to do. I'll get back to the real world now
03-24-17, 02:18 AM
#160
Its an insane double standard of sorts, anything from the euroland of this age an caliber is going to cost WAY more to keep on the road than an FD will, yet in many cases are praised for their German build quality and engineering. Sometimes I wonder if I am the only person who can appreciate the irony in these things.
I looove the old aircooled 911's, but having worked on a full restoration for a customer on a 930, I found the build quality HILARIOUS. I've seen houses from the 50's wired with more logic than those cars have. It wasn't uncommon to hear of them burning to the ground from an unfused circuit shorting out. Yet its a car that commands $100k, and is nearly guaranteed that any auction involving those cars, talk of the solid reliability begins to echo.
I've driven both GT3s and FDs on track and here's a quick reminder of why I still keep my FD. Yep you'll get 10 times the mileage in a mezger/gt3 engine UNLESS you miss a shift or just get unlucky and then you are out 40k. The trans will need a refresh about every 10 to 20k miles (out another 12k or more). The tires and breaks are silly expensive and what's really sad the GT3 is slower LOL.
Goddammit Fritz. I have always lusted after a GT3, but every time I come on here and you **** in my cheerios. The engine cost is terrifying. I just can't see ever having the mindset of being able to shrug off having to replace a $40k motor if something goes south. I'd be afraid to track it hard based on that alone. Knowing that the FD can be the better car really kills the lust.
Does anyone here have experience on the 300zx TT? Seems the market on them is following that slow but steadily increasing trend that FD's are doing. Having no experience with the cars, they seem quite problematic, but none of the reward of being the good handling sports car near what the FD is. Are my perceptions wrong here?
Also, what the **** happened to Supra prices?! The cheapest MK4 on autotrader is $30k. $30k for a non turbo supra!! That market, like the Integra type R and aircooled 911's is running purely on hype and nostalgia at this point.
It seems to me that the 90's Japanese sports car market is still young and hasn't quite stabilized and fully established itself yet? Maybe add to that the collector car market as whole has just recently warmed up to the idea of Japanese cars being a hot item? Seeing how Type R's went from $12k to $35k in what I swear was overnight is one example of what I'm basing this on.
It really is a double edge sword with the values on these cars. On one side, as a passionate enthusiast of the FD, it would be great to see the car skyrocket in value and notoriety. However, on the other hand, as mentioned already, if they stay cheaper, it makes it much more easier to keep buying the cars and parts. Interior parts are already expensive enough. I see it this way, either way we win.
Last edited by Spirit-RE; 03-24-17 at 02:58 AM.
03-24-17, 10:07 AM
#161
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Exactly! What I struggle to wrap my mind around is this. A rebuild every 10 years or thereabouts at $5k, plus normal repairs for the rest of the car considering its 20+ years old, what does that break down to, perhaps $1,000 a year to keep on the road? $1,500?
Its an insane double standard of sorts, anything from the euroland of this age an caliber is going to cost WAY more to keep on the road than an FD will, yet in many cases are praised for their German build quality and engineering. Sometimes I wonder if I am the only person who can appreciate the irony in these things.
I looove the old aircooled 911's, but having worked on a full restoration for a customer on a 930, I found the build quality HILARIOUS. I've seen houses from the 50's wired with more logic than those cars have. It wasn't uncommon to hear of them burning to the ground from an unfused circuit shorting out. Yet its a car that commands $100k, and is nearly guaranteed that any auction involving those cars, talk of the solid reliability begins to echo.
Goddammit Fritz. I have always lusted after a GT3, but every time I come on here and you **** in my cheerios. The engine cost is terrifying. I just can't see ever having the mindset of being able to shrug off having to replace a $40k motor if something goes south. I'd be afraid to track it hard based on that alone. Knowing that the FD can be the better car really kills the lust.
Does anyone here have experience on the 300zx TT? Seems the market on them is following that slow but steadily increasing trend that FD's are doing. Having no experience with the cars, they seem quite problematic, but none of the reward of being the good handling sports car near what the FD is. Are my perceptions wrong here?
Also, what the **** happened to Supra prices?! The cheapest MK4 on autotrader is $30k. $30k for a non turbo supra!! That market, like the Integra type R and aircooled 911's is running purely on hype and nostalgia at this point.
It seems to me that the 90's Japanese sports car market is still young and hasn't quite stabilized and fully established itself yet? Maybe add to that the collector car market as whole has just recently warmed up to the idea of Japanese cars being a hot item? Seeing how Type R's went from $12k to $35k in what I swear was overnight is one example of what I'm basing this on.
It really is a double edge sword with the values on these cars. On one side, as a passionate enthusiast of the FD, it would be great to see the car skyrocket in value and notoriety. However, on the other hand, as mentioned already, if they stay cheaper, it makes it much more easier to keep buying the cars and parts. Interior parts are already expensive enough. I see it this way, either way we win.
Its an insane double standard of sorts, anything from the euroland of this age an caliber is going to cost WAY more to keep on the road than an FD will, yet in many cases are praised for their German build quality and engineering. Sometimes I wonder if I am the only person who can appreciate the irony in these things.
I looove the old aircooled 911's, but having worked on a full restoration for a customer on a 930, I found the build quality HILARIOUS. I've seen houses from the 50's wired with more logic than those cars have. It wasn't uncommon to hear of them burning to the ground from an unfused circuit shorting out. Yet its a car that commands $100k, and is nearly guaranteed that any auction involving those cars, talk of the solid reliability begins to echo.
Goddammit Fritz. I have always lusted after a GT3, but every time I come on here and you **** in my cheerios. The engine cost is terrifying. I just can't see ever having the mindset of being able to shrug off having to replace a $40k motor if something goes south. I'd be afraid to track it hard based on that alone. Knowing that the FD can be the better car really kills the lust.
Does anyone here have experience on the 300zx TT? Seems the market on them is following that slow but steadily increasing trend that FD's are doing. Having no experience with the cars, they seem quite problematic, but none of the reward of being the good handling sports car near what the FD is. Are my perceptions wrong here?
Also, what the **** happened to Supra prices?! The cheapest MK4 on autotrader is $30k. $30k for a non turbo supra!! That market, like the Integra type R and aircooled 911's is running purely on hype and nostalgia at this point.
It seems to me that the 90's Japanese sports car market is still young and hasn't quite stabilized and fully established itself yet? Maybe add to that the collector car market as whole has just recently warmed up to the idea of Japanese cars being a hot item? Seeing how Type R's went from $12k to $35k in what I swear was overnight is one example of what I'm basing this on.
It really is a double edge sword with the values on these cars. On one side, as a passionate enthusiast of the FD, it would be great to see the car skyrocket in value and notoriety. However, on the other hand, as mentioned already, if they stay cheaper, it makes it much more easier to keep buying the cars and parts. Interior parts are already expensive enough. I see it this way, either way we win.
It's always about supply and demand. Just not nearly as many supras available.
Eventually there won't be many FDs and the 30k plus prices will be legit. The problem is until that happens only a fool would spend 30k plus when there are good cars for less than 20. Which of course was my whole point of starting this thread.
There are 30 cars listed on autotrader and the majority are priced at 30k or more. None of them are selling.
If someone hasn't scooped up that 94 touring I keep mentioning I'd be surprised. However as long as cars like that are still available and a junker is 10k, 30k doesn't make sense for all the reasons I already mentioned.
The main reason I started this thread was because of the red touring listed for 30k plus on this forum. That dude is simply looking at other FDs listed for 30k and thinking dang that's the price of these cars. Not even close, YET.
I do believe in 5 years a low mileage VR/tan touring in good shape with 50k miles might fetch 36k. AND, that's literally the worst combo you could possibly buy. Now consider what the 94 SSM r2 may be worth and his starting price of 46k isn't that far off.
Trust me in as little as 5 years this car with low miles could easily be worth 40k and sell for 40k and not just sit there like the cars currently on autotrader at 30k plus.
I've said it over and over again but it bears repeating "the FD will one day be worth more than the supra"
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; 03-24-17 at 03:09 PM.
03-24-17, 02:52 PM
#163
Goddammit Fritz. I have always lusted after a GT3, but every time I come on here and you **** in my cheerios. The engine cost is terrifying. I just can't see ever having the mindset of being able to shrug off having to replace a $40k motor if something goes south. I'd be afraid to track it hard based on that alone. Knowing that the FD can be the better car really kills the lust.
03-24-17, 03:12 PM
#164
I would have to argue that if you drive your FDs locally fairly often people have noticed it before and decided they like them. What gets most people to look initially is a flash of a bright color, a sound they don't hear often, or they are like me and will snap their neck driving to see literally any car that's not owned or well known by the general populace.
I pulled up to a grocery store parking lot and this SUV full of people pulls up and they start snapping pictures while climbing all over themselves to do it. Since it was at night, there were constant flashes going off, like a bunch of paparazzi lol. Rather surreal since it came out of nowhere and I was left like 'eerrr ok... hello?"
I'm driving down the freeway and this guy in front of me slows down and waited for me to pass him. As I'm doing so, he goes ape ****. Fist pumping and yelling "**** yeah! **** yeah!" I just waved and smiled.
My GF (now wife) and I were at a bookstore chilling by a seating area near a window that gave me clear view of my FD. Anyway, a group of 3 guys walked up to the car and started taking pictures of themselves standing next to it. Literally taking turns but think about how silly that is. A group of GROWN men taking turns snapping pictures each other with some random car in a parking lot. My wife kinda laughed as she said "are they serious?? lol"
I was parked getting some to go food at a denny's when this guy felt the need to wait with his girlfriend just so he could shake my hand. Seriously, as I am walking towards my car he approached me and told me so. I don't know how long he waited but it couldn’t be any longer than 10 minutes. But still...
My cousin was visiting from out of town so I took him all over San Diego to show him the sights. Somewhere in the middle of our tour he turned around and said '**** man everyone is always looking and yelling ****. It's weird." I just replied that for the most part I don’t really notice it anymore because I'm pretty used to it (truth). A few minutes later we pull up to a bar for a mid afternoon drink (got lucky and got a spot right up front) and there was this very pretty girl in her mid 20's who was sitting in one of the outside tables. As we walked past her, she asked what kind of car it was and I replied "mazda rx-7" which she said "well I looove it, it's very nice". I gave her my thanks and walked away which I then turned to my cousin and said "now that, never gets old lol"
So after almost 20 years of ownership the stories go on and on... and on...
Videos sometimes describe it best and IIRC this was Bewtew's car though it's an oldie, it is still a goodie. The reaction from the guy in the background is pure gold but the best part is that they stopped filming a ferrari to capture his FD. Granted, Bewtew's car was not (by any means) your average FD but still
Edit-
Not being rude, but what would you know about what is realistic since you've never owned one? I'll tell you that I've driven (beat up on it) a $160,000 450hp porsche 911 turbo and was quite surprised. At the time, my FD had basic boltons and had a worn out suspension and still the porsche barely and I mean barely, felt faster and sturdier than my FD. At first, I was underwhelmed about what $160K gets you but I quickly realized that I was looking at it all wrong. It wasn't a testament of what 160K gets you, it was a testament of what an RX-7 really is. So I did right by my FD and overhauled my suspension.
Last edited by Montego; 03-24-17 at 04:58 PM.
03-24-17, 10:23 PM
#166
My RX-7 (FD and a bevy of FBs) were all more reliable than either of my low mile NSXs... Parts and repairs are less expensive too.
I think the FD takes a greater level of engagement to understand the package... Maybe due to some of the technology, maybe due to some of the FDs initial flaws... And it results in a bit of a cult experience among the brethren. Lot of passion!
I think the FD takes a greater level of engagement to understand the package... Maybe due to some of the technology, maybe due to some of the FDs initial flaws... And it results in a bit of a cult experience among the brethren. Lot of passion!
03-25-17, 10:02 AM
#167
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Don't have a GT3 but I do have a GT4 in my garage, which IMO is a better car than the GT3 (more balanced chasis and lighter weight). My single turbo street RX7 with ohlin coilovers can definitely keep up with the GT4 on track. I dont even want to imagine what a more hardcore track RX7 can do. The GT4 is still faster and more refined no doubt, but it says a lot about a japanese car from the 90s hanging with the best the Germans have to offer these days. Another reason why I think the RX7 is the best bargain when it comes to 90s japanese sports car.
For the most part a stock GT4 is going to be a road block for any serious track prepped FD.
Skip to the 5.38 mark on this vid. The yellow car in the distance is a GT4. This is the instructor group and most of us are on something similar to hoosiers.
During that entire vid or for 5 laps each lap is a 1.38. I'm just relaxing in traffic and the tires are junkers.
SCCA TT1 (corvette C5 Z06 race car) lap record on that track is approx 1.39.
Now several years earlier (in much less track oriented setup; car didn't have full cage, had a stock trans and smaller wing) during a time trial with fresh rubber and pushing hard it runs a 1.34. That's approx 4 seconds off the SCCA GT1 lap record. A GT1 is a 600 HP 2000 pound car, tube frame, tons of aero etc... or in other words it's about as fast as a semi normal looking car can be
The last time the UTCC ran the north the winner was Tommy Archer (extraordinary pro driver) in a 400k plus viper race car. He ran a 1.28. See results at the bottom of this page: Witchdoctor Motorsports
1.34 vid below
Now lets consider I'm no pro driver. Bottomline: The FD is an extremely FAST competent car. I'd hate to think about the amount of money it would take to make a supra anywhere near as fast around a race track.
I've heard of folks in track setup GT4s running 2.04s on VIRs full course but until I see it/video it didn't happen LOL. Seriously though I'm sure in can be done with a pro in the seat, setup with a few track goodies and on hoosiers. The best I've done on the full is a 2.02 and the new GT3 will run 1.59s or lower all day (again pro type driver).
2nd Bottomline (lol/i could talk about the fd forever): With all that said the GT4 is no joke (i hope to own one at some point) but just a little invested into the FD, say 30k, and it will absolutely demolish a GT4 that has 10k invested. Remember we are talking about a 1993 sports car that cost about 15k for a decent one (buy one already modified and only spend 15k additional blah blah blah). So for say 45k you can have a very fast track car that's also fine on the street etc.... A GT4 is 90k, plus 10k in mods for track setup etc... and now you have to stick your arm out the window to let a 90s jap sports car fly by you, that's a hard pill to swallow LOL.
All this is personal experience (small world view) so take it with a grain of salt but there is a very good reason the FD is and will always be a legend.
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; 03-25-17 at 10:36 AM.
03-25-17, 02:40 PM
#169
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That said the biggest difference though is right here: 93-98 Supra Retail Sales Numbers by Model | MKIV.com
The FD is 1/4 the price not because it's a quarter the car it's because there are 3/4s more of them available.
It's all about supply and demand. The market is drying up. Just give it time
Chances are you are right (for all the reasons discussed in various threads) and I'm wrong so I'll keep my fingers crossed and continue to breathe.
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; 03-25-17 at 06:28 PM.
03-25-17, 05:40 PM
#171
Understood and I clearly get carried away and have an extremely strong bias toward the FD.
That said the biggest difference though is right here: 93-98 Supra Retail Sales Numbers by Model | MKIV.com
The FD is 1/4 the price not because it's a quarter the car it's because there are 3/4s more of them available.
It's all about supply and demand. The market is drying up. Just give it time
Chances are you are right (for all the reasons discussed in various threads) and I'm wrong so I'll keep my fingers crossed and continuing to breathe.
That said the biggest difference though is right here: 93-98 Supra Retail Sales Numbers by Model | MKIV.com
The FD is 1/4 the price not because it's a quarter the car it's because there are 3/4s more of them available.
It's all about supply and demand. The market is drying up. Just give it time
Chances are you are right (for all the reasons discussed in various threads) and I'm wrong so I'll keep my fingers crossed and continuing to breathe.
Tell us how you really feel, Gordon!
03-25-17, 06:33 PM
#172
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The ugly part we agree on but it's one redeeming quality to me is that it is not a POS.... LOL
Or the engine, interior etc... can take a beating.
That said the interior is all out 90s. The body is OK but too big and tall or in other words it's pretty much an ugly duckling compared to the FD. Looks decent sitting next to a chevelle.
Or the engine, interior etc... can take a beating.
That said the interior is all out 90s. The body is OK but too big and tall or in other words it's pretty much an ugly duckling compared to the FD. Looks decent sitting next to a chevelle.
03-25-17, 06:41 PM
#173
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Only half the MKIVs imported were turbo, and of those roughly half were equipped with an automatic transmission, making the 6-speed Supras quite rare, at right around 4000 units. Compare that to manual transmission FD numbers, which I think exceed 11,000, and I think the rarity argument goes the other direction. I think the appeal of the MKIV Supra in the US is (of course) the power potential, reliability, build-quality, looks (though definitely not the looker the FD is) and the mystique it garnered from years of online street racing videos where the platform wreaked havoc. The reliability issues of the FD definitely hurt it, but I think the interior feeling so cheap, and the fact that parts of the car were underengineered, hold back its appeal to a wider car buying audience. That said, I am dying to get back into one
Tell us how you really feel, Gordon!
Tell us how you really feel, Gordon!
And yep to all the other things you mentioned.
Eventually there will be about 1000 FDs similar to the number of manual turbo supras likely available today and we'll see a decent jump in price.
Also the FD hasn't been as widely discovered so I think that there's some under appreciating going on that will also start to favor it's value later as more and more people realize just how good the car is.
03-25-17, 08:54 PM
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I agree over the NSX and Supra, for the price I'd take the FD... Only downside is the unreliablilty of the rotary maybe this is why its so much cheaper than the other 2... but as far as timeless shape and interior styling.... The Rx7 wins everyday in my book....
03-26-17, 09:13 AM
#175
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There is clearly a higher demand than the supply of turbo supras. It's that simple.
The NSX isn't really that expensive compared to the cost it sold for when new and that's because similar to the FD the supply is still there. You can still get a nice one for 75 or so which is about what they originally cost (60 to 90). No thanks I'll take three nice FDs please LOL.
OR the appreciation for the FD is about in line with that of the NSX and so are the production #s. 13000 or so FDs and 11000 NSXs.
At this time the FD parts, engine, trans, diff etc... is cheap but that's all changing daily as the parts market also drys up.
We all know the value of this car is moving higher but some sellers are a little ahead of the market. Which is how markets always move.
The reality is if you are interested in getting top dollar for your FD then sit on it for a five years. If you are interested in making money or doing something else with that money then sell it for what the market bears and that isn't 30k UNLESS your car is very nice.
Very nice is a sub 25k mile R2 that's bone stock etc....