How to value your FD
The following users liked this post:
arghx (10-08-18)
10-08-18, 10:54 AM
#1502
All out Track Freak!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 412 Likes
on
250 Posts
having said that. I don’t think these cars will go for big bucks. If they were going to then the spread between these and the Supra wouldn’t be so sharp. Why does that exist and why would it change? What is the catalyst to close that spread? It won’t. These cars are perceived to be unreliable. Once u rebuild them their collect ability is in the garbage. And no one works on them. While I think these cars are one of the best cars to come out of Japan they won’t reach Main Street collectibility for those reasons. It’s going to be hard for these cars to keep up with inflation I think.
This is another thing you and I disagree on along with David who feels the Supra will always be worth a lot more than the FD. The spread is big for two reason. 1st; I believe the Supra is appreciated by HP guys/muscle car guys along with sports car guys or has a bigger audience. The FD is mostly appreciated by sports car guys alone. 2nd; Supply and demand. As the FD supply dries up we will see prices move a lot higher.
David may say the supra is worth 100k more because one just sold for 150 and the highest selling FD is 50 and looking at those two cars he'd be right. I however don't believe the gap is that far apart.
I'm not sure how much reliability adds to the collector market. Having a unique engine, history etc...I believe does though.
I also believe the FD will eventually outpace the Supra because it's the better looking car inside and out, far more interesting car, better performing car and more fun to drive. Most importantly of all though is the size.........or sizewise it's perfection. The supra is BIG and a little awkward looking to my eye and it seems to be getting worse as time goes by where as the FD just gets better and better!
It's all personal preference though so who knows. I'm biased as they come in regard to the FD and have no qualms admitting that so my perception could be WAY OFF or I could be dead wrong about all of this
10-08-18, 01:07 PM
#1503
14 months ago? Damn. Someone actually shelled out $20K above comparables (at the time)... lol whoever that is probably cashes money orders from emails sent by Saudi Prince(s) and then wonders why the check bounced
Last edited by Montego; 10-08-18 at 03:27 PM.
10-08-18, 01:49 PM
#1504
FOR THIS CAR color( sunroof trim and etc) is eye of the beholder or is meaningless. I am sorry. And as more and more data comes in it will
continue to show that. It’s already pretty clear to me. The forum ( really just a handful of guys to be honest, fritz you are one) thinks otherwise and they are being proven wrong as we speak.
continue to show that. It’s already pretty clear to me. The forum ( really just a handful of guys to be honest, fritz you are one) thinks otherwise and they are being proven wrong as we speak.
10-08-18, 03:15 PM
#1505
All out Track Freak!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 412 Likes
on
250 Posts
I'll side with Fritz on this one, and being around these cars for over 20 years have seen a clear preference for 94-95 non-sunroof cars. There is no way a 95 R2 doesn't have a much stronger collector appeal than a 93 touring. I don't think a couple data points on BAT prove your point. Too many other variables, like the timing of buyers coming to purchase, affect those BAT sales. All other things equal, I would expect a 94/95 non-sunroof to pull at least a 10-15% premium over a 93 touring. The car is noticeably stiffer (interior does not creak on driveways), is lighter, and looks better without a sunroof (double bubble top). And even though I think the MKIV Supra will always be worth more than an FD, I would expect that gap to shrink in the coming years.
I think what Matt is getting at is next week when a nice 93 VR/tan touring is listed it could bring 30 to 50k or more and if a nice CW white is listed it could bring 30 to 50k or more because the market is moving rapidly higher and there is no real way to gauge it.
The only thing I know for certain is there are very strong preferences that have real values. YES it would seem the biggest preference is finding a low mileage car asap before prices go higher and I think that is all Matt is alluding to. Each month prices could potentially be moving higher so what you pay for your 95 today may be less than what a person pays for a 93 in 6 months. However I can assure you the 95 car is worth more TODAY than the 93 car is worth TODAY ...........
10-08-18, 05:41 PM
#1506
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
If you lined up two equal cars a 95 white and 93 vr the 95 would sell for at least 10k more. No need to argue the obvious. OR we will agree to disagree Year, model, color, interior color, etc.... make a difference and the lower the mileage is on any given car the larger the price difference will be for any preference whether it be year, color or model. Of course the cars listed on BAT could bring any number of results because they are sold at different times, it's an auction (so the sale doesn't last long), presentation is HUGE, etc....
Today sunroofs are more desirable. We agree on the that. However 20 percent of the cars produced were hard tops (just a guess). I'd say 25 percent of the population wants a hard top and 75 a sunroof. In 10 years I think 50 percent will want a hard top blah blah blah. I'm guessing and I don't know anything for certain.
The easiest car for me to sell at this time is a white sunroof car. Hardest would be a 93 VR or MB touring with tan interior.
Year, model, color, interior color, etc.... make a difference and the lower the mileage is on any given car the larger the price difference will be for any preference whether it be year, color or model. Of course the cars listed on BAT could bring any number of results because they are sold at different times, it's an auction (so the sale doesn't last long), presentation is HUGE, etc....Today sunroofs are more desirable. We agree on the that. However 20 percent of the cars produced were hard tops (just a guess). I'd say 25 percent of the population wants a hard top and 75 a sunroof. In 10 years I think 50 percent will want a hard top blah blah blah. I'm guessing and I don't know anything for certain.
The easiest car for me to sell at this time is a white sunroof car. Hardest would be a 93 VR or MB touring with tan interior.
We have an example of a very low mileage vr car selling for 49k on bat. You are arguing that if it was white it would have been 59k or more?
I am attempting to shine some light on the idea that the BAT market has a far different set of valuation principles than the conventional forum thinking. Anyways. Does my assumption above capture your point of view ?
10-08-18, 05:47 PM
#1507
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
that’s a pretty big statement. And highly doubtful. You would need some sort of catalyst for this to happen. And I can’t imagjne what that would be. There is a reason Why it’s worth half. Why would it change? We aren’t going to wake up one day and all
of a sudden the market comes to their senses.
You need somethjng to substantiate that statement.
of a sudden the market comes to their senses.
You need somethjng to substantiate that statement.
10-08-18, 06:02 PM
#1508
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
I'll side with Fritz on this one, and being around these cars for over 20 years have seen a clear preference for 94-95 non-sunroof cars. There is no way a 95 R2 doesn't have a much stronger collector appeal than a 93 touring. I don't think a couple data points on BAT prove your point. Too many other variables, like the timing of buyers coming to purchase, affect those BAT sales. All other things equal, I would expect a 94/95 non-sunroof to pull at least a 10-15% premium over a 93 touring. The car is noticeably stiffer (interior does not creak on driveways), is lighter, and looks better without a sunroof (double bubble top). And even though I think the MKIV Supra will always be worth more than an FD, I would expect that gap to shrink in the coming years.
Anyways the question remains. If the 49k car that sold was white r model would it have sold for 60k? We all
know the answer is no. So how can anyone here be in disagreement. I mean we just saw a fairly low mileage cym struggle to sell for 37k.
My thesis isn’t what makes a car desirable to the forum. A bunch of us here have been around for 20plus years and we all agree what makes the forum get excited. My thesis is that just about ALL the common group think of the forum won’t apply to Main Street such as bat. And slowly but definitely surely I am being proven right. I know my thinking isn’t the popular opinion.
Last edited by matty; 10-08-18 at 06:05 PM.
10-08-18, 06:03 PM
#1509
I'll side with Fritz on this one, and being around these cars for over 20 years have seen a clear preference for 94-95 non-sunroof cars. There is no way a 95 R2 doesn't have a much stronger collector appeal than a 93 touring. I don't think a couple data points on BAT prove your point. Too many other variables, like the timing of buyers coming to purchase, affect those BAT sales. All other things equal, I would expect a 94/95 non-sunroof to pull at least a 10-15% premium over a 93 touring.
Only in this forum have I've seen such importance to a solid roof. The reality is that most outside of the forum aren't wishing to mimic track cars. BTW it is not a couple of data points from BAT either as several trades over months have taken place and none appear to be affected by trim. As I said earlier, mileage and color seem to be the biggest factors.
1) The sunroof cars do have a double bubble just not as pronounced
2) Lighter? This is exactly what I am talking about where only here on the forum that is seen as important. Only here would someone make an argument about a difference in weight totaling to 0.007% of the car's weight. It is pretty ridiculous if you think about it. **** if people care that much, then have them take a huge crap before driving. They will not only be lighter but probably feel much better too lol (obviously I am being facetious but you get the point).
3) The stiffness you are feeling is either a placebo effect or the addition of the strut bar coupled with the condition of the suspension. Because the truth is that a car's roof is specifically designed to absorb huge amounts of energy, spreading it throughout the body shell to the reinforced areas, the A, B, C and D pillars. Not only that, but there are also lateral beams that run across the roof (front and back) that increase strength and rigidity by being connected to the load bearing pillars. Interestingly enough, the sunroof sits right between all of these beams and since the fixed roof FDs do not contain any additional load bearing properties, there is zero effect on the car's rigidity. Think of this type of roll cage:
.
As you can see, adding a thin piece of pliable metal would do nothing to increase rigidity.
Last edited by Montego; 10-08-18 at 07:42 PM.
10-08-18, 06:12 PM
#1510
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Guys. I just want to be clear. I am
not disagreeing with what makes a car more in demand here in the forum. I am not disagreeing that there are less cym produced than vr. I am
not disagreeing that a 95 r2is a better choice than a 93 touring. This is all well know stuff
I am saying that those principles are clearly out the window on Main Street (bat). And I am saying that while stuff like production numbers matter for the Porsche world and other thick markets they won’t matter “enough” for the fd market not only Bc there is little difference between an r and pep but also Bc illiquid markets are weird. And weird stuff happens due to many things like timing.
I am not a dummy that doesn’t understand scarcity. I am just thinking a step ahead of that.
not disagreeing with what makes a car more in demand here in the forum. I am not disagreeing that there are less cym produced than vr. I am
not disagreeing that a 95 r2is a better choice than a 93 touring. This is all well know stuff
I am saying that those principles are clearly out the window on Main Street (bat). And I am saying that while stuff like production numbers matter for the Porsche world and other thick markets they won’t matter “enough” for the fd market not only Bc there is little difference between an r and pep but also Bc illiquid markets are weird. And weird stuff happens due to many things like timing.
I am not a dummy that doesn’t understand scarcity. I am just thinking a step ahead of that.
10-08-18, 06:17 PM
#1511
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Totally agree with Montego. And I don’t see how anyone can disagree. There is plenty of data on bat now. Not only is it evident in the price. But also the comments. Real players that are paying 50k for these cars simply do not care if r or pep (Bc there really is not much of a difference). They are more excited to get their hands on a car with 10k miles to tuck away.
Someone isn’t passing on a 10k mile example
over 10% in price Bc it doesn’t have a fixed roof. Come on!!
Lots of placebo effect, group think, splitting of hairs to identify .000001% and etc. on this forum that no one “real” is going to care about. In order for the car to become a real collectible we need a different group of people interested. And I think we are now just seeing that group come to life.
Someone isn’t passing on a 10k mile example
over 10% in price Bc it doesn’t have a fixed roof. Come on!!
Lots of placebo effect, group think, splitting of hairs to identify .000001% and etc. on this forum that no one “real” is going to care about. In order for the car to become a real collectible we need a different group of people interested. And I think we are now just seeing that group come to life.
10-08-18, 06:27 PM
#1512
Totally agree with Montego. And I don’t see how anyone can disagree. There is plenty of data on bat now. Not only is it evident in the price. But also the comments. Real players that are paying 50k for these cars simply do not care if r or pep (Bc there really is not much of a difference). They are more excited to get their hands on a car with 10k miles to tuck away.
Someone isn’t passing on a 10k mile example
over 10% in price Bc it doesn’t have a fixed roof. Come on!!
Lots of placebo effect, group think, splitting of hairs to identify .000001% and etc. on this forum that no one “real” is going to care about. In order for the car to become a real collectible we need a different group of people interested. And I think we are now just seeing that group come to life.
Someone isn’t passing on a 10k mile example
over 10% in price Bc it doesn’t have a fixed roof. Come on!!
Lots of placebo effect, group think, splitting of hairs to identify .000001% and etc. on this forum that no one “real” is going to care about. In order for the car to become a real collectible we need a different group of people interested. And I think we are now just seeing that group come to life.
10-08-18, 07:25 PM
#1513
So the question is: Is the 95 more appealing because it is an R trim or because it has the newer interior?
Only in this forum have I've seen such importance to a solid roof. The reality is that most outside of the forum aren't wishing to mimic track cars. BTW it is not a couple of data points from BAT either as several trades over months have taken place and none appear to be affected by trim. As I said earlier, mileage and color seem to be the biggest factors.
ain any load bearing properties, there is zero effect on the cars rigidity. Think of this type of roll cage:
Only in this forum have I've seen such importance to a solid roof. The reality is that most outside of the forum aren't wishing to mimic track cars. BTW it is not a couple of data points from BAT either as several trades over months have taken place and none appear to be affected by trim. As I said earlier, mileage and color seem to be the biggest factors.
ain any load bearing properties, there is zero effect on the cars rigidity. Think of this type of roll cage:
10-08-18, 08:49 PM
#1514
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
I have e46 m3 too. Great car. There are literally several trades a day for that car. One can find exactly what they want tomorrow. So details are very important. This is another point in case.
10-08-18, 09:35 PM
#1515
In any case, point taken and so insert RX-7, supra, nasioc, svt, M3 forums, ect... Car forums are comprised of members that are cut from the same cloth. Enthusiast forums exist because of (and are for) certain kind of individuals. With that said, those indivuals do not represent the masses as a whole, and that is why Matty nailed it:
Last edited by Montego; 10-09-18 at 01:50 AM.
The following users liked this post:
gmonsen (10-12-18)
10-09-18, 09:18 AM
#1516
Totally agree with Montego. And I don’t see how anyone can disagree. There is plenty of data on bat now. Not only is it evident in the price. But also the comments. Real players that are paying 50k for these cars simply do not care if r or pep (Bc there really is not much of a difference). They are more excited to get their hands on a car with 10k miles to tuck away.
Someone isn’t passing on a 10k mile example
over 10% in price Bc it doesn’t have a fixed roof. Come on!!
Lots of placebo effect, group think, splitting of hairs to identify .000001% and etc. on this forum that no one “real” is going to care about. In order for the car to become a real collectible we need a different group of people interested. And I think we are now just seeing that group come to life.
Someone isn’t passing on a 10k mile example
over 10% in price Bc it doesn’t have a fixed roof. Come on!!
Lots of placebo effect, group think, splitting of hairs to identify .000001% and etc. on this forum that no one “real” is going to care about. In order for the car to become a real collectible we need a different group of people interested. And I think we are now just seeing that group come to life.
I don't think the evidence is there because we haven't seen the exact same mileage and condition of a sought after model vs. the plethora of red touring FDs listed there. If a 10k mile pristine CYM or 95 R model was listed it would sell for $59k or higher and I am confident of that. We do know one thing for certain though and its not even arguable......no body wants tan interior. Not even a collector who wont even drive the car.
The following users liked this post:
GoodfellaFD3S (10-17-18)
10-09-18, 09:25 AM
#1517
All out Track Freak!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 412 Likes
on
250 Posts
i understand you are going off your experience which is more substantial than just about anyone. But I need to press a little.
We have an example of a very low mileage vr car selling for 49k on bat. You are arguing that if it was white it would have been 59k or more?
I am attempting to shine some light on the idea that the BAT market has a far different set of valuation principles than the conventional forum thinking. Anyways. Does my assumption above capture your point of view ?
Do you understand what I am saying?
IF there was any possible way to list a low mileage 95 CW/black PEP against (meaning at the exact same time/same auction/same type listing) a 93 VR/tan the CW would sell for at least 10k more.
The one CW car we saw listed was POS with rust (so bad they painted over sections etc...etc..../the engine bay had a massive clean up iow it was bad barn find) and it sold for 40k. The one SUPER clean VR/tan sold for like 29k (I believe it also had high 20s low 30s mileage). However that doesn't really even matter because it's an auction. TRUST this: YEAR, MODEL, COLOR, INTERIOR, etc..............make a big difference in value and these differences will be compounded as time moves along. I'll repeat again that it is difficult to determine the value of various cars listed in an auction while at the same time the value of those listed items/cars is rising rapidly. Does this make sense to you?
I suspect we'll see an FD sell for 60k next year and whether it's an R2 or 93 touring won't support either of our arguments because the overall values have moved higher.
I love people who play devils advocate so I'll continue beating this horse as long as you will
To think that year, model, color etc.... doesn't matter and the sole value is that it's an FD is just being stubborn. Next you'll say it doesn't matter if it's an automatic (yes as the available market dries up we will start to see automatics selling for 30k plus).......whatever LOL
10-09-18, 09:26 AM
#1518
Regulation low, housing prices surpassing previous bubble highs and lower taxes........This should end swimmingly.
10-09-18, 09:28 AM
#1519
All out Track Freak!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 412 Likes
on
250 Posts
aristo read my earlier comment. I think you missed my point about how I think markets function. 10% in a thinly traded market gets lost in the noise that is inherit to auction. By noise I mean who shows up in the room on any given day. Presentation such as sellers personality, pics, other data. And etc. the same car can trade on Monday for 35k then on Friday for 40k for absolute zero reason. When you have a car that will take 5 years to establish enough sales data to make a scientific argument a 10% gap is lost. One again this isn’t a Porsche. If we were talking Porsche then I’d agre with you fritz and everyone else.
Anyways the question remains. If the 49k car that sold was white r model would it have sold for 60k? We all
know the answer is no. So how can anyone here be in disagreement. I mean we just saw a fairly low mileage cym struggle to sell for 37k.
My thesis isn’t what makes a car desirable to the forum. A bunch of us here have been around for 20plus years and we all agree what makes the forum get excited. My thesis is that just about ALL the common group think of the forum won’t apply to Main Street such as bat. And slowly but definitely surely I am being proven right. I know my thinking isn’t the popular opinion.
That said they will pay more for a 95 vs 93
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; 10-09-18 at 10:00 AM.
10-09-18, 09:58 AM
#1520
All out Track Freak!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 412 Likes
on
250 Posts
Lol. What could go wrong with dramatically reduced regulations and lower taxes...........I imagine you will retire soon so you don't care if it royally 'boofs' the country for a decade though. Also, you aren't really suggesting that foreign trade relations/tariffs, all enacted very recently are one of the key factors of this now 4-5 year recovery?
Regulation low, housing prices surpassing previous bubble highs and lower taxes........This should end swimmingly.
Regulation low, housing prices surpassing previous bubble highs and lower taxes........This should end swimmingly.
Lets see if laughter's curve works? (oops I meant laffer's cuver which does work when tax rates are too high but not when they are already fair. F#ck it lets lower them another 30 percent so we can really heat this economy up LOL)
AND since we'll have soooo much money from all the corp profits and tax income from the dude at amazon who is now making 15 bucks an hour lets raise our military spending that's already higher than the rest of the combined world. HUMAN BEINGS ARE JUST PLAIN GREEDY! It's the worst human trait we have for making things work in the modern world. Capitalism works awesome when the playing field is level but like everything if you eff with the rules you turn it into an oligarchy and that's pretty much how this country has operated for decades.
INFLATION is coming our way and it's going to hurt!
SAD!!!
However it's been great for me. We are having our best year but it's a house of cards or it's all supported by private and gov DEBT. BUT; my daughter's future looks more and more effed up with every passing day. The gov/political media thing has become unbearable. There is no real news they all say the same party line that suits whoever is paying the bills/owns the media. It will all fall and pick it self up again but it's going to hurt!
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; 10-09-18 at 10:06 AM.
The following users liked this post:
alexdimen (10-10-18)
The following users liked this post:
GoodfellaFD3S (10-17-18)
10-09-18, 06:09 PM
#1523
All out Track Freak!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (263)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Charlottesville VA 22901
Posts: 10,672
Received 412 Likes
on
250 Posts
LOL........me too and they cost money. The more we have the more we'll pay. The better the economy the more we have. Right now we have a lot and we are witnessing stupid prices for all sorts of old cars. Buy now, wait, sell now, wait......who knows but it's also fun to talk about the economy. RELAX!!!!!
If you are interested in keeping it a long time I'd buy the best one you can afford right now (cough cough preferably a 94 or 95 LOL) or ASAP!!!!
Best of luck!
Best of luck!
10-10-18, 04:50 PM
#1525
The Ancient
FDS tops Hagerty's collector cars this fall...
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...10_HagertyNews
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...10_HagertyNews