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I’m on the verge of picking up a 93 FD project. I’ve been having lots of debate with various gear head friends about engine reliability. A few think I should drop a LS engine in because it’s bulletproof, less expensive, and has a great parts market.
They firmly believe that even with a well tuned single turbo street port, the engine is going to need new seals everything 20-30k miles. Others think if properly maintained and lubricated, they will run longer and be more reliable than what they are “known for”. One buddy joked I should just buy a few engines up front because I’ll need them.
Curious what people who actually have owned and worked on these actually think. Odds are high I’m going to be getting a rebuilt engine from Bryan at Rotorsports Racing vs getting the bridge port engine (single turbo) repaired as this project car has been sitting for 5 years (complete with fluids still in it)...
One buddy joked I should just buy a few engines up front because I’ll need them.
What I tell friends that are interested in a rotary FD is might as well buy one with a blown engine and LEARN TO REBUILD the rotary yourself.
If you aren't into the rotary enough to want to learn to rebuild it yourself my opinion is the FD probably isn't the car for you. However, besides the engine FD is just a car like any other, so an LS swap isn't out of the question for those not into the rotary itself.
LS swap won't be cheaper than single turbo rotary like your friends say though, unless you are aiming to build a hillbilly gokart without working gauges, PS, AC etc. Expect to spend $20,000 plus if (like buying a rebuilt rotary instead of rebuilding) you are looking for bolt in LS swap components.
I had a 2015 C7 vette a few cars back. Great car but once I got married (and now have a child), it made less sense. This FD project came out of nowhere as it belongs to a very extended member of my wife’s family. I do want to learn to rebuild it myself but right now I don’t have the time, but I do have the funds to get it running.
If if I can get it running and it lasts me a while as a weekend/occasional track car, I know I’ll have more time down the road to tinker with. Since it’s been sitting for 5 years, I want to get it running now so I can at least check off all the other stuff that needs repair/replacing and then just worry mostly about the engine down the road.
That being said, will a well tuned and bult engine that is maintained well last longer than my friends suggest? I realize that what we people say isn’t gospel but having some real data points beats a bunch of people who never owned an FD debating. I did own an RX8 when the first came out but I know that’s apples and oranges (mostly rotten ones at that).
Yes, but the trouble is people usually break a couple while they learn what those words actually mean.
oh I’m sure. That’s part of the reason I’m thinking of just getting an engine built and tuned by a reputable mechanic. That should buy me some time before it becomes a learning experience. If anything, I’m hopefully I can hang around and learn while he does his thing.
A lot of the "rotaries are unreliable" come from the late '90s when people were trying to make power with a stock ECU and trying voodoo and bandaids to "tune" the engine. We've come a LONG way since then.
Good tuning is the #1 fix for rotary problems. On top of that the new aftermarket apex seals that are out there can take more abuse than the stock apex seals and not break. New injector technologies, better ECU's, and better understanding of how to bring it all together goes a LONG way.
You're near by some really good rotary shops - Rotorsports Racing is a great group, and Addicted Performance in Tennessee isn't far from you and they do some excellent work as well.
A bridge port can make a lot more power and has that fun "brap" idle, but you sacrifice engine life with it. You remove material that supports the side and corner seals and they take more wear which leads to a motor that loses compression faster than you would like. If you don't mind pulling and messing with the engine that's fine, but if you want to get the car running and just have fun with it I'd sell the bridge port engine and go with a street port. You can have excellent engine life and make great power.
As stated, to do an LS1 swap right is a LOT of money and a LOT of work. It's definitely easier/cheaper to get the rotary happy in the car. LS1 engines are strong but any engine that you are going for performance with will require some measure of "not working right". Sure, the bottom end might be fine, but all the other stuff bolted to it can be problems as well.
Thanks for the info and additional feedback on Rotorsports. I went up there and chatted with Bryan for a good while the other day. I've pretty much decided that if I do this, I'm going to swap out the current full bridge for a street port. I dont want the gas consumption, wear, or constant high rev driving that comes with a full bridge. The car was making 525WHP (single 67mm turbo with water/meth infection) when it was running according to the seller, but I'm good getting closer to 300-350 given the weight of this car.
Bryan said it's around $2500 for him to inspect, replace all the seals, and rebuild the engine. For $3200, I can get one of the street port engines he just built that has all new seals and is ready to go. For just over $5k, he has brand new Mazda (not reman) engines so I've got options. The car I'm looking at has the Apexi FC and Bryan says he has probably 300+ tune files on his laptop we can try.
LS swap won't be cheaper than single turbo rotary like your friends say though, unless you are aiming to build a hillbilly gokart without working gauges, PS, AC etc. Expect to spend $20,000 plus if (like buying a rebuilt rotary instead of rebuilding) you are looking for bolt in LS swap components.
I just want to reiterate how correct this statement is. I am sure that I have more money into my LS swap that has everything working than the equivalent 13B build, and a 13B with less money in it probably makes more peak power than me too.
I just want to reiterate how correct this statement is. I am sure that I have more money into my LS swap that has everything working than the equivalent 13B build, and a 13B with less money in it probably makes more peak power than me too.
also the 13B bolts in, so it can be done quickly. the LS engine takes a lot of time to swap, the local guy that does it here is a 6 month turn around.
nobody ever takes this into consideration, but it is pretty hard to have a rotary powered FD in the shop for 6 months
if You’re looking for sub 400whp stay rotary, go streetport and do reliability mods.
If you’re really going to track the car I still believe rotary is the proper choice if power goals are reasonable. I’ve seen more LS cars kill motors on track due to oiling issues than I care to think about.
I’ve seen more LS cars kill motors on track due to oiling issues than I care to think about.
Not possible! The LS is the best and unstoppable!
Seriously, I would start doing research and get realistic with a budget. First, figure out what you want from the engine. I wouldn't go deep down the rabbit hole on the engine, get a good street port with good apex seals and built by a good builder.
Next figure out what your power goals are. If you want a fun street car, twins or BNR's is a great way to go or one of the new Borg Warner IWG turbos that spool like a demon. Make 350-400 or so at the wheels and you have a killer street car.
Probably need to go through other bits of the car - making that power will need a decent clutch and you'll need wheels big enough to put enough rubber on that can handle that level of power or you're just turning tires into smoke. The stock brakes are perfect on a street car with good pads and fluid, they only need to go big if you're seriously doing track days, but I would wait until you get to the point where you're hitting the track enough that you're overdoing the stock brakes.
A good V-mount setup like the Greddy makes for a VERY cool running engine that will be dead reliable.
Keep reading, keep asking questions, and maybe start a build thread.
Thanks for the reply. I’m going to probably buy one of the ready to go street port engines that Rotorsports has for sale. I will also try to resuse as much as I can from the car. Here is what I know about it:
Full Bridge Ported
Borg Warner 67m Turbo wrapped in heat blanket
Wrapped down pipe
Water/Meth Kit
Apexi FC Commander
ACT 6 Puck Clutch
Lightweight Flywheel
Carbon Fiber Drive Shaft and Diff Cradle
Air/Fuel Gauge
Oil Temp Gauge
Water Temp Gauge
Veil Side Body Kit
Carbon fiber hood
Greddy Blow Off Valve
Ignition Booster
Boost controller
Now..all of this is at least 5-10 years old so Ill need to see how its held up and what newer tech can replace this.
Thanks for the reply. I’m going to probably buy one of the ready to go street port engines that Rotorsports has for sale. I will also try to resuse as much as I can from the car. Here is what I know about it:
Full Bridge Ported
Borg Warner 67m Turbo wrapped in heat blanket
Wrapped down pipe
Water/Meth Kit
Apexi FC Commander
ACT 6 Puck Clutch
Lightweight Flywheel
Carbon Fiber Drive Shaft and Diff Cradle
Air/Fuel Gauge
Oil Temp Gauge
Water Temp Gauge
Veil Side Body Kit
Carbon fiber hood
Greddy Blow Off Valve
Ignition Booster
Boost controller
Now..all of this is at least 5-10 years old so Ill need to see how its held up and what newer tech can replace this.
Now I am curious.....carbon fiber drive shaft......makes me wonder which Veilside Kit you have, care to share?
I would be vary wary of that car........it looks like it has sat for a long time and it doesn't look like the owner cared about it much - hard parked into mud and the issues around the wind shield molding for a start. Also, personally, any car with a giant stereo system always make me nervous at to what kind of person drove it, and how they drove it.......
Just make sure it is cheap......
Last edited by FEED AFFLUX v5; 05-27-18 at 12:29 PM.
I have the same Veilside kit on my car, but in place of the side skirts and rear valance, I have carbon fiber rockers and rear diffuser.
I just had stage 3 BNR twins installed in place of the standard HT12's and it feels great, no lag and 351hp on pump gas alone with stock ports. They can be turned up another 5-6 psi with race gas or AI.
I always loved the rotary engine, but like you, I wanted to know the ways to make it last.
There is a wealth of information to reliabilty, tried and true protocols and do's and dont's that can determine how long it lives.
I bought my BNR twins from IR Performance, awesome support and like 3 days delivered.
I had them installed and tuned by Rotary performance(which is a few miles from me), awesome tuner and really a top authority in the rotary world. One thing I noticed is how connected these reputable shops and tuners are, they all know each other and never seem to bash or cutthroats to get your business, scam etc... That's the Rotary world compared to realms like the LS inhabits.
I would be vary wary of that car........it looks like it has sat for a long time and it doesn't look like the owner cared about it much - hard parked into mud and the issues around the wind shield molding for a start. Also, personally, any car with a giant stereo system always make me nervous at to what kind of person drove it, and how they drove it.......
Just make sure it is cheap......
As I stated above, the car has been sitting for 5 years. The current owner is part of my wife's extended family (but I don't know him any more than I know anyone on this board). What I do know is that the engine was originally built and tuned by PF Supercars and from what I hear, they have a stellar reputation. Seller claims he had probably $20k in the car when it was running and pushing 525WHP on that full bridgeport.
Someone we I do trust in the family said a buyer offered him $18k for it a few year back and he wouldn't sell it. For as long as it's been sitting, the interior is in very good shape. The car itself has less than 40K miles on it, but a Carfax shows it was a salvage. It looks like it was side swiped in 2003 which is when the salvage was issued. The CarFax says the car was drivable and no indication of airbag deployment (I know you can't always trust Carfax). At 10 years old, I'm guessing any damage to the car probably made it a loss as far as insurance in concerned. The current title, according to Carfax, is rebuilt.
He was asking $7k for it and we've agreed on a number less than that. I know it needs a new transmission, ignition solenoid, and some other things due to sitting. I'm sure it would cost me less to rebuild and keep the bridgeport, but I think long term, that's going to be an issue vs. just core swapping for a off the shelf ready to go street port.
One thing I noticed is how connected these reputable shops and tuners are, they all know each other and never seem to bash or cutthroats to get your business, scam etc... That's the Rotary world compared to realms like the LS inhabits.
Yeh. When I spoke with Bryan @ Rotorsports Racing, he knew the first name (and sometimes the wives) of the various tuners/parts suppliers that work with Rotary Engines. He said if PFSupercars built the car I'm looking it, odds are high, it was done right and ran well when it was still in running condition.
That's a VERY late 90's - early 2000's style build. Triple gauge pod with Autometer gauges, giant stereo in the back, chrome Momo wheel....
Hard to say if that CF can be repaired. It may be the epoxy on the CF itself that reacted with the UV. If it's just the very top of it it may be able to be sanded down and have a clear coat applied. But if it's all the way through the clear epoxy you're gonna be out of luck.
Since it's sat for a while you'll have to go through a lot of stuff - brakes may be rusted/seized up, all the fluids will need to be replaced, hopefully the gas tank isn't rusty. Take your time, go through it system by system, and get it running and driving. Then start focusing on going from there.
If I were you I’d buy it and take my time going through the systems of the car. In that time you can part out the bridge port motor and look for a street port like you want.
That car is is a disaster, stay away. Bridge port and 6 puck clutch is very draining to drive. You're looking at 20 grand to get that car right, or 10 grand and 2 years of your life.
That car is is a disaster, stay away. Bridge port and 6 puck clutch is very draining to drive. You're looking at 20 grand to get that car right, or 10 grand and 2 years of your life.
I was going to swap the engine for a street port for like $3200. If I can get the engine running, I think he rest of the systems can be DIY.
How do you figure $10k-20k? Genuinely want to know to make sure I’m not overlooking something.
05-24-18, 08:39 PM
