uh oh: Rebuild help--no oil pressure...?
 

After many small setbacks I finally got my rebuilt/ported TII ready to be started for the 1st time since rebuilding. I was told that before start-up, I had to 'prime' the oil system by pulling the EGI fuse, disconnecting the CAS and cranking 5 or 6 times to build up oil pressure before starting the car. I did these things and after much cranking, my stock gauge is still reading zero psi... What are some variables that would cause my car to be registering no oil pressure?

I've accepted that this might be a serious problem, so spare me no honesty... What could I potentially be dealing with here?

Thanks guys,

Well, you may be looking for worst case scenario answers here, but how bout a possibly simple one? :)

When I did my rebuild and put it back in I forgot to plug the oil pressure gauge sender back in, have you checked to make sure that it is indeed plugged in properly? Also the oil pressure sender units are prone to failure, to be honest, and can show lower than normal oil pressure or none at all.

Have you not even started it yet at all? Just cranking?

is the stock gauge connected, did you check the oil level, there could be more then 4 quarts needed if you drained teh oil cooler before rebuild. squeeze the oil cooler hose with your fingers before cranking then have someone crank the engine see if you feel the hose get stronger , you should.

dDuB:

Steve (13bpower) told me to check that too. The connection was pretty gunked up, so I cleaned it off with an old tooth brush, plugged it back in, cranked it 3 or 4 times after doing this and the stock gauge still registered 0 psi.

Ya, this was preliminary to starting it. I don't want to really try starting it with no oil pressure, I've just been cranking.

Kahren:

The stock gauge is connected, I get fuel reading, but obviously no boost psi or coolant temp. (along with no oil pressure).

I put in 4.7 qts. of oil before cranking. I'll try your hose "clamping" technique tomorrow.

verify the oil sesnor connection. Its a red/yellow wire that runs parallel with the capacitator and wraps its way into the harness, and eventually goes to the guages. If the wire ground shorts, the gauge will read absolute max/high. If the wire has no conection, it will read 0psi or lower.

stock pressure sensors fail often, especially after a rebuild when they are exposed to air for a long time. see if you can somehow get your paws on another sensor, or just hook up a manual pressure guage.


pat

Yes, get a regular mechanical gauge and an adaptor for the stock location (1/8-28 bsp) and check using that.

IF you want to check to see that oil has been circulated, take off the oil filter after cranking...if oil comes out, then it's doing it's job.

You have to screw something up to get no oil pressure out of a rotary...leave the oilpump loose, the key out of the sprocket, or the oring out of the front cover...none of which is very likely.

Ok, I tried both squeezing the oil cooler hose while cranking (only once), and removing the oil filter to check for oil. I felt no oil 'hardening' the hose in the 5 seconds the car was being cranked. I also saw no fresh oil in the filter after cranking it several times.

QUESTION 1:
How much cranking must I do for oil to be pumped up into the oil filter? I cranked it about 4x for 5 seconds in 30 second intervals.

QUESTION 2:
Also, if hypothetically I am getting no oil; I assume that excessive cranking could be harmful (since then the only lubrication in the motorwould be vaseline)...?

QUESTION 3:
Also, if I have in actuality been sucessful in increasing the oil pressure, will the PSI go back down after letting it sit for a period of time... Or, once it's been primed, does it stays primed...?

QUESTION 4:
Should I do some more periods of cranking to try and see if I can get any oil to come out of the filter, or should I wait until I can hook up an aftermarket oil pressure gauge?

QUESTION 5:
Last question, is there any oil line I can safely disconnect to see if oil has been flowing...? I'm assuming (regardless of the mess) that this would be able to tell me once and for all if oil has indeed been flowing.

Thanks

When you speak of the 'oilpump' are you talking about the chain etc. assembly in the front cover? The chain had a little bit of play, but it definitely worked fine (from pulling on it). And if you're talking about the long square key that you fit down into the sprocket deals (like a puzzle), I definitely remember putting that in. And by the o-ring in the front cover, are you talking about the huge and fat orange seal you gotta pound in with a mallet, or somthing else?

Crank for 15 seconds at a time. By the 2nd or 3rd crank, you WILL have oil pressure.

You can crank an engine bone dry all day long and not hurt anything...rpm's are too low and there is very little friction or heat produced. Besides, most builders at least lube the bearings with a little oil.

OIl pressure drops immediately when cranking stops. The oilpump is turned by the eshaft...when it stops turning so does the pump. Then the pressure bleeds off almost immediately. A little bit of oil volume will remain in the upper passages, but there won't be any pressure.

Crank away. After a minute of cranking with no oil flow, I would worry...about why there is none. It'd mean there was not enough oil, no pickup tube, a problem with the oil pump, or a reglator left loose or something.

IF oil is flowing, oil will be in the filter, at the oil pressure sending unit hole, and the turbo oil feed line on the front corner of the block. Opening any of these holes would reveal a lot of oil being pushed out at 25-75psi.

front cover oring...

http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/oring.htm

I'd say keep cranking it. It took me a lot of cranking to get things primed on my rebuild.

A quick checklist of things I can think of that would cause little to no oil pressure:

Oil pickup tube: Installed?
Front cover o-ring: Installed?
Oil pump: Installed?
Oil pump chain: Installed?
Oil pressure regulator: Not removed?
RTV on the front cover: Not blocking the MOP feed? (not critical for oil pressure, but still important if you have the stock MOP setup)

If those are all there, then you should eventually get oil pressure. I don't remember how long it took to get oil pressure on my rebuild, but I know I was getting a bit worried about it, then I started seeing pressure.

As for wear on the engine from cranking, that's what assembly lube is for. There's very little internal stress on the engine while cranking. The assembly lube will just stick around until it's either washed out by oil in the bearings (which will take it's place), or burned out by combustion (and the MOP or premix will take it's place).

I'd say keep cranking it and see what you get. Some slightly longer periods of cranking might also be helpful - you didn't specify how long you were cranking it for, but 10-15 seconds is what I used (with adequate cooldown time between cranks). I was able to do it on the battery I had in the car, but it was also a brand new battery.

-=Russ=-

crank it a bunch, wont hurt anything. (you did lube the internals at least some on assembly, right?). i usually use around half a quart of oil when i put one together...just kinda slather it around real liberally over everything, and pour some into the rotors.

pat

Wow, thanks a lot for the help guys.

I cannot recall putting in the front cover o-ring (although this of course doesn't mean that I didn't). I'm going to watch the Atkins video where they assemble the front cover, and hopefully this will 'bring me back' to the day I assembled mine and I'll be able to remember.

After watching the video, I'm gonna go out and crank the motor some more.

Dude, RotaryResurrection; I'm honestly to the point where getting blasted in the face by 50 psi of oil pressure would be a joyous event, lol.

I'm also not sure what the oil pressure regulator is, or where it's located. I had a buddy of mine help me with most of the tear-down/build-up so I might've missed the part of installing the OPR...?

mucho thanks

Ok, so I watched the Atkins video... I now remember what the OPR is and where it's located. I remember installing that. And I'm pretty sure I installed the front cover o-ring.

I'm gonna go out and crank to my hearts content.

ok, well I just got back in from some cranking... I cranked probably 6 times for over 10 seconds each time. Only problem is, is the battery is pretty weak in the TII so I had my dad's old school Mercury Tracer jumping it as I cranked.

It'd crank solidly for maybe 2 or 3 seconds before becoming increasingly weak and slowing (and quieting) down the pulses. I still pulled off the oil filter 3x to check for oil and I don't think I saw anything new. I even had my dad crank it while I had the filter off, to see if anything would come squirting out. I did 3, 2 second bursts with no results (probably not long enough, but whatever).

The oil cooler hose feels a little harder than I remember it being after cranking, but this could just be my imagination.

One thing to note:
There was a strange squeaking noise coming from somewhere, that would sound every 3 pulses or so. Kind of sounded like it was coming from around (or from) the airpump, definitely on 'that' side of the engine bay. Should I worry about this?

What would you guys do?

sounds like the key for the oil pump sprocket dumped out of it's groove, though Kevin said it is unlikely it took me 30+ minutes to get my sprocket back on and get the dowel to stay in, it all depends on if the dowel has any burs in it and how sloppy it fits into it's groove.

another dumb question, you did put the oil pickup tube on right?

if yes then i would say you could have dropped the oil pump key.

ya, the oil-pickup tube was installed.

I'm thinking that I should pop off an oil hose to check for signs of oil before I go to the trouble of removing my front cover to see if I lost the key...

I'm guessing that if my cranking has yielded no positive results thus far, it's unlikely I'll get anything by cranking more...

Anyone?

That would explain the squeak too... =(

eriksseven, I'll PM you with a video of me cranking with the EGI fuse out to get oil pressure to give you an idea of how it is... pretty sure you're not getting any pressure unless your sensor is dead, 'cause it doesn't take long at all to build pressure.

I'm uploading it to sendafile now, I'll pm you the link when it's done.

--Gary

^thanks

IF you've cranked this much and gotten no oil, there is a major problem somewhere...but seriously, crank that bitch for 10-15 seconds at a time if you want to be sure...this pussyfooting 2-3 second stuff is useless.

You DO NOT need to fool with any oil lines. IF OIL IS FLOWING, IT WILL GET TO THE OIL FILTER QUICKLY. IF there is none there, there is none anywhere...no pressure, anyway. This is the case with any engine...oil is pressurized and sent through a route of various passages, all of which see pressure within a few seconds. The oil filter is included here.

I think you're getting a bit paranoid about the oil pressure. At cranking speed of ~250rpm you are going to get bugger all oil pressure. What you need to do is make sure the oil has been distributed around the engine, and doing what Kevin suggested above (cranking for 10-15 seconds at a time) a few times will do that fine. Personally I wouldn't crank for more than 10 seconds at a time through. You can overheat and damage the starter doing that.

Once the engine comes to life, then you should make sure you have sufficient oil pressure.

lol, thanks. I'm gonna put a better battery in their that will give me some real cranking power and see if I get any different results.

Alright, no oil lines. I'll get back to this thread tomorrow (or the next day at the least) with the results of either the cranking with a fresh battery, or the removal of the front cover for inspecting whether or not the key is still in place.

Thanks guys

With this being a freshly assembled engine, I have to disagree. IF the pump isnt delivering oil for some reason then he can lose the engine in <10 seconds by actually starting it if it's still dry. I've seen a key slip out from an oil pump and the engine started, revved to 3krpm for about 4 seconds, sputtered, bogged down and died...LOCKED SOLID. Casualties, e-shaft, front main bearing, front rotor bearing, front rotor (bearing spun inside the rotor).

I think I know what you're saying that you don't have to worry about how MUCH pressure you build during cranking, if any...on a regular engine that's already been in service. ON a rebuild, all the oil passages are dry, and the insides of rotors and oil coolers are hollow...cranking the engine this way gives the system a chance to "fill itself up" before actual stress is put on the parts. Once everything has circulated a bit, it can be treated like any other regular engine already primed with oil. RIght now, we can only assume every surface inside is dry, or almost dry...which is fine for cranking, not for running.

Erik, this really sucks. I remember pointing out that you have to put the front cover o-ring on when you were assmebling the front cover.

I can come over tomorrow, in the late afternoon most likely.

You should have oil pressure by now. It took me 2 minutes to get mine up. I know I have a mechanical oil pressure gauge for testing for failed senders. I have used it a couple times. I just need to find it.

Call me tomorrow.