Timing issue
 

I've searched nearly every thread related to this issue and haven't found the answer I was looking for. If someone knows of a thread I missed, please throw a link in. So, I finally got my car back (long story) and I've got the timing set almost correctly. There seems to be some weird issue though. Pulleys are stock and the timing marks are bright and easy to read. Please note, there is no factory warm up system or factory intake manifolds on this car if that's of any concern.

I've lined the leading (yellow) mark on the pulley with the timing indicator on the motor, set the CAS properly via the HITMAN method, and locked the timing to -5 within my e6x. Every time I try to time the car this way, the leading mark reads approximately 30 degrees retarded? ( facing engine, timing mark approx 30 degrees to the left of the timing indicator on engine) Moving the CAS back and forth gets it a little closer but not much. When it is reading like this it idles smooth. It doesn't rev well as the tune is SUPER rich right now (10.2 AFR at idle). I've gone one step further and moved the CAS one tooth over and now the lead timing is dead on. However, it runs like absolute crap.

Any ideas?

are you certain these pulleys were not mixed up at some point?

Absolutely positive. Timing matched up before I went standalone and itbs. The closest I can get the timing set when the cas is set properly is within 20-30 degrees. It's weird at this setting it runs super smooth

Are you sure you have the timing light setup correctly. Fancy timing lights don't work well on rotaries

Also your sure you have the timing light on the leading plug?

Yes and yes. I have an older style light I'm using that is capable of reading 2 cycles. Light is on leading one

In case this makes a difference. The settings in my e6x are currently as follows:

Trigger Angle 65
Tooth Offset 11
Spark Mode Distributor
Constant Charge
Falling Edge
4.5mS
Internal Reluctor
Trigger Edge Falling
Home Edge Falling
Trigger/Home Filter 1
Trigger Gain 2-3
Home Gain 2-3

In addition, my CAS is pointing at approximately 1 and 7 o'clock when looking directly at the engine from the front

VR sensor polarity reverse?

In terms of the cas wiring? Shouldn't be. I've gone over the diagram 20+ times and verified the wiring with haltech twice. I'm stumped as to why when I purposely move the cas one tooth off, the timing is dead on, but it runs like crap and when everything is aligned properly and it runs well that the timing reads off.

As an update: I blieve the timing is 30 degrees or so advanced, not retarded. When looking at the yellow mark and timinga from the front of the car, it is moving to the left of the timing peg.

standing at the front of the car, if the pulley marks are to the left it is advanced. if it is to the right it is retarded.

Yup. It's about 30 or so degrees advanced then with the CAS set correctly. Any ideas?

offset will adjust the timing without moving the CAS.

Since I aligned the pulley to the leading mark and set the cas at approximately 1 and 7 oclock with the bottom dimple on the CAS lined up, could it be my trigger angle causing this issue? It's currently set at 65 and I've read various threads indicating that 60 or 70 degrees may be needed.

I'm not new to rotaries but pretty new to tuning so I'm unsure what you mean by the offset. The trigger angle or the tooth offset? If you're referring to the tooth offset, do I just play with that to get the ecu to read what the engine is actually at? I'm hoping to get this sorted out this week and lean out the idle map so its can be tuned on the 23rd. My idle is at the very low 10's right now and doesn't rev very easily due to fuel being dumped in.

Thanks again.

Update. The car was running until I realigned the cas. Now it runs like crap. So to start from scratch, I realigned per the factory method, set e6x to 65, locked timing to -5, and tooth offset of 11 and it still won't run. Car will either start then die immediately or run and then backfire like like a gun everytime the throttle is touched.

Any ideas or numbers to try?

double check your CAS wiring and your trailing wire routing.

Double checked all wiring to CAS and coils and it checked out fine. Reset CAS again and started the car with the recommended settings. It now starts and dies immediately.


I did notice there is a wire cut on my front harness of this plug. I can't for the life of me figure out what plug this is or if this wire needs to be connected to something. I did extend my front harness so I could tuck it into the fender recently. For what it's worth, I extended every single wire one at a time so none would get messed up. Could this be causing the issue?


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...3322bb0580.jpg


Wire colors are: B/w, r/w, b/r, and the cut wire is black.<br/>

Also, as a result of extending my harness, a relay clicks on when I turn on the blower and clicks faster or slower depending on the speed setting. Is this related to the above wire not being connected? This never occurred before the harness was extended. I know the factory did splice several wires into one in the front harness and I'm wondering if i forgot to rejoin one.

try 5 tooth offset. My old e6x was lined up there.

with the standard 60-70 angle? Thanks for the response

S4 or S5?

it's FE-05 but i couldn't for the life of me find what the black wire was for, most likely unrelated since those are random warning and sub zero system wires.

s4. Checked the fsm and verified its FE-05. Still don't know why this wire was clipped. Or why my stupid blower relay is now clicking as you adjust the speed. Every other electrical part works fine and has worked fine with no issues. Something has to be shorting out but I have no idea how or why.

Back to the timing issue. Played with the settings again and no luck. Pulled out the wiring diagram and verified wiring to the coils and CAS is correct yet again. I'm getting spark, the car starts up but won't hold idle and dies. It doesn't give me time to even get the timing light on it.

I don't get it. It was running fine a couple days ago besides the timing being a little off. I should of never pulled the CAS again. The battery was a little low today after all the cranking so its on the charger for now. I'm at a loss right now.


These are the maps claudio tuned for me and allowed the car to run earlier.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx7...e99e1d51a1.jpg

maybe I should post this in the haltech section as well

To keep these topics related to the title, I'm making a seperate thread for the blower relay

Just had a thought. The temperature has dropped a good 20 degrees since the car was running last. Could this be relevant to the car no longer starting with the same settings? I haven't touched any maps from what Claudio had given me and I'm nearly positive the cold start map isn't enabled. If so, what steps should I take? I need to get this car running by next Sunday for tuning. If need be, I can post all my settings and current maps. Thanks in advance!

possible. its possible the map is too far off to run at stock timing, or the idle speed is mechanically set too low, or some combination. if it was mine i would do the following.

1. get it running, if this means advancing the timing, so be it.
2. warm it up. it is ok to remove some fuel if its crazy rich (10's)
3. set the idle speed to 1000-1500, something low enough to be an idle, but high enough to stay running.
4. lean out the fuel at idle, shoot for about 12:1, once everything else is dialed, then you can experiment leaner, but for now, close is good.
5. try moving timing back to the marks. if it doesn't like it all at once, then try half, and retune fuel.

the Gotchas; not only is this a neat movie with anthony edwards, but being that you're using a haltech, there are a few things it doesn't do that you need to know about.
a. you need to use a 4 stroke timing light, the rotary is just a 4 stroke, a 2 rotor has the same ignition events as a 4 cylinder.
b. the tooth offset number is also the maximum timing advance, so it needs to be a number higher than 50. since haltech is dumb, it will let you enter whatever you want as ignition timing, but if the tooth offset is lower than the timing advance, you won't have the timing you think you do. for example if you end up with a tooth offset of 12, the maximum ignition timing will be 12 no matter what you enter in the map.

Thanks for the detailed response. I should of clarified, I'm using a basic timing light that states it's rotary compatible. In addition, I've timed this car prior to the install with this light.

In terms of idle speed, my manifold does not have the provision for an idle control valve. It does have Manu throttle adjuster that I can use to set idle. This was sufficient previously and the car held idle. Now it either starts and dies immediately, starts and backfires upon touching the throttle at all then dies, or just doesn't start. I've pulled the plugs and cleaned them off as well.

Based off the maps provided, what do you recommend to set the timing and settings to in order to get it to run with the factor cas alignment?

Once the car starts and idles I think I've got a a sufficient grasp on fiddling with the settings to get the timing dead on. Then I can work on the leaning out the idle as you mentioned.

did you do any radical porting to the engine?

Stock porting, 48mm itbs, Star mazda DCOE manifold, stock coils, 2xID1000cc injectors (primary only, for now. May go staged later)