s5TII trans with s4TII shifter, clutch, and flywheel
 

will an s5 TII bolt right up to all the s4 tII stuff?

The shift lever is slightly diffrent if i recall correctly, and you will need to keep the flyhweel with your engine, as the flywheel is balanced to your engine. other then that i don't see why not.

the only thing you should have to change are the actual transmission mounts, you'd have to source the s4 ones to make the s5 transmission fit on your car (if your car is a s4)

its an 87 base model with full a TII swap (drivetrain and suspension).

This is not correct. You need to use the corresponding crossmember for the trans being used not the year of the car. S5 TII Trans = S5 TII crossmember

The S5 shifter has a smaller thread for the knob (then the S4) it also has a nylon insert in the shifter linkage and at the pivot pin groove bushing.

The quick answer is Yes, you can install the S5 TII trans as long as you have the correct crossmember.

Didn't know about the crossmember from a manual to a manual, i've only ever put s5 manuals in auto s4's and s5's. I thought the manual transmission would all use the same corssmember, thanks for the correction.

Strange as it may seem there are 5 different crossmembers for the FC

86-88 Manual Trans non-turbo
86-88 Turbo
86-92 Automatic Trans
89-92 Manual Trans. non-turbo
89-92 Turbo

They give different part numbers, but yet I know all years interchange. (Don't know about auto)

Incorrect. The S5 and S4 cannot be swapped, they mount to the trans completely differently, side of the trans vs. the bottom. The N/A and TII in a particular series can be swapped but they will not bolt up to the chassis. The mounting holes are offset differently on the crossmember. The auto crossmember is completely different then all the manual trans.

More importantly, are there any differenced in gear ratios or strengths? In other words, is there an advantage of using one over the other (mounting being equal)?

84-85 13b GSLSE 3.622 2.186 1.419 1.00 .807
1986 RX7 Non-Turbo 3.475 2.002 1.366 1.00 .711
87-88 RX7 Non-Turbo 3.475 2.002 1.366 1.00 .697
89-92 Non-Turbo w/o LSD 3.475 2.002 1.366 1.00 .697
89-92 Non-Turbo with LSD 3.475 2.002 1.366 1.00 .756
86-88 RX7 Turbo 3.483 2.015 1.391 1.00 .762
89-95 RX7 Turbo 3.483 2.015 1.391 1.00 .719

5th gear varies in ratio between series of the same trim.

We find the S4 trans and diff hold up to more abuse then the S5. The Turbo LSD simpley because it is a Clutch style vs Viscous

banzai your telling me a s5 t2 tranny cross memeber + mounts will bolt right up to a s4 chassis?

I feel bad that I'm giving out misinformation if that's the case

That is correct. A S5 TII trans with the S5 TII crossmember bolts directly into an S4. The rubber mounts are all the same. There is a Series specific trans bracket that bolts to the trans, then the rubber isolators, then the Series specific crossmember

This is an S5 TII, notice the trans mount Y bracket has the holes on the sides, the S4 has them on the Bottom. Also notice the offset chassis mounting holes, these change from front to rear depending on Turbo or N/A

http://www.banzai-racing.com/tm_installed.jpg

So, the 5th gear is the only difference (probably an attempt to save gas) in the ratios? I'm not worried about the LSD, I'm worried about the transmission its self. I dropping my S4 and it is gone, and swapping in an S5 as they are more readily available from Japanese importers. My car is a GSL-SE by the way.

i did not think you could use a stock S4 clutch and flywheel with a s5 trans?

The S4/S5 clutch is exactly the same and bolt to either S4 or S5 flywheel, the flywheels are balanced to the engine.

http://banzai-racing.com/store/86-91...lutch_kit.html


I had no idea people were so confused on this subject.

why do they have different flywheels, clutches, release bearings?

I had a custom clutch set up that started out as a ACT set up, it would not fit over the front cover of the s5 trans, I had to change the front cover of the trans. but they sell only one front cover, meanwhile the bearing and fork would not work.

I had a hell of a time with that shit over a $45 front cover swap.

The only diffence is between Turbo and N/A not between S4 and S5

Front cover of the S5 trans? I have no idea what you are referring to. There is a bellhousing, still no difference. S4 and S5 flywheels vary in weight not design.

there is a removable front cover on the TII trans, it was different from S4 to S5.
They also sell 2 different clutch forks.

Aftermarket clutches fit all TII, but stock are different.

2 different release bearings also, a s4 bearing will not fit on a s5 front cover, the forks will not interchange either.

I never understood how aftermarket stuff can cover the entire range, but stock is all different?



http://mazdatrix.com/pictures/g-tra-...FrontCover.jpg

Transmission Front Cover with Seal
It is always a good idea to replace the front seal on the transmission when replacing a clutch. What we are finding is considerable wear on the transmission front cover from the continual release bearing movement. If worn too much, the pressure plate will fail prematurely from release bearing side movement and misalignment.

Where are you getting this info from? It is greatly flawed.

Even the picture you just linked to list it as a 86-92 Turbo front cover, part number does not change neither does the part. http://www.mazdatrix.com/g3.htm

The clutch fork IS interchangeable as well as the release bearing, this is why the aftermarket parts all fit both series

I listed the front cover because you said there is no front cover, just a bellhousing.

My information is not flawed. Im not imagining that the throw out bearing and fork I bought brand new from Mazdatrix did not fit on my front cover, I had to buy a new front cover.
Again I ask you if there is no difference then why are there 2 different forks and different release bearings?

We are not crazy, there were 4 different rotary mechanics stumped by this, the solution to my issue was buying a new front cover. The trans was a S5 Jspec trans.

Why does Mazda sell different S4 and S5 TII clutches, pressure plates, release bearings and clutch forks if they are all the same?

im going to have Roan come in and explain it as well since you think I am flawed, meanwhile I wish you to explain to me what Mazda's reason for selling series specific TII clutches, forks, release bearings and pressure plates, if they are interchangeable then why not just sell one for all TII trans? What is your explanation?

banzai is correct with regard to the mounting brackets.
and Rob is definately correct with regards to the front cover and T/O bearing issue.

the issue is this. we tried installing a Series 5 clutch, flywheel and T/O bearing with a series 5 trans. (it apears someone had changed the front cover pictured above to a series 4 one). everything bolts up as the flywheel diamerters are the same ect.. but the throw out bearing will not fit on the trans fork. no big deal (so we thought), we had a series 5 fork on the shelf, well the series 5 fork will not fit with the series 4 front cover. myself and 3 other experienced rorary mechanics all witnessed this and I can tell you for a fact it doesn't work. we bought the series 5 front cover and everything works fine

You can argue all you want, there is only one part number for the front cover, there is no S4 or S5, just 86-91 turbo. N302-16-2210

The clutch and pressure plate have nothing to do with the front cover, so there would not be any issue with fitment on the ACT set up.

ACT sells exactly the same release bearing for every FC clutch kit, it does not matter if is it a N/A, TII, S4 or S5 it is all the same part RB091

You guys are really going to try to convince everyone that ACT, Centerforce, Exedy, ect have all put together the wrong clutch kit for either the S4 or S5? It is much more likely you guys got your hands on a bad part somehow. A mis-marked release bearing maybe?

The Clutch fork didn't fit the Front Cover? They do not even make contact with each other. The clutch fork attaches to a pivot ball and then slides the release bearing up and down the front cover.

Again sounds more like you had a mis-packaged release bearing. From what I am hearing it was the release bearing that was the entire fitment issue. Not the Clutch, flywheel, clutch fork or even the front cover.

BTW: Mazda created new part numbers for the S5 clutch discs & PP because the stock 86-88 clutches are 240mm, the 89-91's are 235mm. They can be used in either series, the spline stays the same.

Alrighty, I took a few minutes out of my day to snap some pics. Honestly, if it took four "rotary mechanics" to install a clutch and release bearing, I have to question the caliber of the mechanics. There is nothing even rotary specific about a simple clutch install. I certainly would not recommend them for a RX-7. Sounds to me like Robxx7 was getting shafted.

Here are 3 clutch forks and a release (TO) bearing, S4 N/A, S4 TII and far right S5 TII. Difference is fork fingers are a little thicker on S5, which is the reason for new part number and would be an upgrade for the S4.

http://www.banzai-racing.com/clutch/...utch_forks.jpg

Same release bearing in S4 and S5 clutch forks, no fitment issues:

http://www.banzai-racing.com/clutch/...tch_forks2.jpg

http://www.banzai-racing.com/clutch/...tch_forks3.jpg

I figured I would go to opposite extremes with the trans, here is an S4 N/A trans with the S5 turbo clutch fork and S4 release bearing:

http://www.banzai-racing.com/clutch/...ns_S5_fork.jpg

Now the S5 TII trans with the S4 clutch fork and S4 release bearing:

http://www.banzai-racing.com/clutch/...on_S4_fork.jpg

Absolutely NO fitment issues and everything is interchangeable. Sorry Rob but you got screwed.

I just installed an S4 TII Drivetrain on my S5 NA. I used the Exedy Stage 1 Clutch Kit. Throw out bearing fit on the clutch fork and front cover just fine on the S4 TII. I did not tell the company I ordered from whether or not I had S5 or S4. The box came with the years 86-91 on it. So unless they guessed right, Throw-out bearings must be the same for all series.

lol glad i could start a good conversation. There is some good info in here now though

I had to have the guys from Mazdatrix measure for me, there was a difference.
I even have the old front cover I can ship you and you yourself can see it was different. Maybe now they sell one cover but used to have 2, who knows?

So either someone bolted a mystery front cover on the transmission before I got it which caused this issue or there used to be a different front cover.
What are the differences in the throw out bearing between series to series?

And it did not take 4 mechanics to install it wise ass, we are saying that 4 people seen it and the issue, dont make like your the only one who has worked on these cars and the only one who knows anything- its a big world out there.

Listen up pal, I was trying to help you out. I don't want you to ship me you parts, and I really don't care if you got bent over by your "rotary mechanics". There are hundreds of "shade tree wrench twisters" out there calling themselves rotary mechanics. However your experience explains why we have cars from 7 different states and engines from another 5 states in our shop right now. You want to start calling me names because you got screwed, that is just pathetic, good luck with your car.

Listen "pal", my car is doing just fine thank you. I called you a wise ass because you are not listening to me and for some reason insisting I got "screwed over"

Maybe someone changed the front cover on my transmission, it was used, all I know is that the S5 throw out bearing would not fit on the front cover. I still have this front cover which is why i said I can send it to you since you think we were all seeing things.

never mind from the start you said there was no front cover, just a bellhousing.

I bought a new fork, throw out bearing from Mazda, they did not fit, period.
I bought the new front cover after I had someone at Mazdatrix measure it for me, problem solved- so again either there are 2 different front covers or someone swapped another one onto my transmission before I got it, which I had in my storage shed for almost 3 years.

I cant see how I got "screwed"? It did not cost me any extra money, just some phone calls and measuring.

Explain how I got "SCREWED" and "bent over" by my rotary mechanics? I take great insult in that, you making like you are so high and mighty. They did not end up with the extra parts, I sent them back to Mazda, no extra money out of my pocket.

BANZAI, this thread is about helping the OP and providing usefull info for the community. you're smart ass comments and douche bag personality really aren't helping the cause here. anyway, the original front cover on rob's tranny was a smaller diameter than the new S5 one we replaced it with. the S5 throw out bearing was "swimming" on the original ft cover shaft. once the new front cover (shaft) was in everything fit with no issues.

I'm gonna resist the urge to answer you're off topic comments as I'm sure it's clear that Rob is happy with the work that was done on his cars. hopefully people like you don't discourage other people like us from trying to help and pass on knowledge to the next generation of rotorheads.

wow, i didn't see all these other replies before I made my last post. banzai, you really are an ass. you were never trying to help rob out as you stated, Rob is in very good hands and dosen't need your help. the OP and ppl reading this in the future are who this in intended to help.

I don't understand how you have the balls to accuse me of being a "shade tree wrench turner" when you have no idea of who I am or what I'm capable of? My hands have worked on MOST of the fast rx-7's and rotary powered vehicles in the north east tri state area. and like you I have had the pleasure of fixing other shops fuck ups time and time again. I've NEVER had a customer come on this forum and complain of poor quality work, being overcharged, or having issues with ANYTHING I have done to thier car. How dare you try to put it in peoples heads that I'm some kind of dishonest business man who "screwed" over one of my customers??

because you're experience with trannys has been difrent from mine, you come to the conclusion that someone got screwed? you're an idiot! Rob offered to ship you the front cover to prove to you that there is indeed another front cover in existance that was made by mazda. he was trying to HELP YOUR IGNORANT ASS by showing you something that you are clearly unfamilliar with. at no time did he or I hint to the ppl on here that you're an inexperienced rotary mechanic, we just figured that in the time you're been screwing up, I mean working on second gens, you haven't come accross this particular front cover.

my appoligies to the OP. I hope you get you're car running and don't run into any issues with the swap.

and to the arrogant ass, thanks for showing your true colors...

Hmmm, let's see here....

I said that I had no idea what you were referring too, not that there wasn't one.

This was as a result of your completely confusing post..

Again, the ACT clutch and pressure plate have nothing to do with the front cover. I will be the first to admit I had NO idea what you were talking about. However, it is abundantly obvious that you don't know what you are talking about either.


You guys really need to coordinate your mis-information better, if you are going to try to convince the rotary community that you are correct with your BAD info. One of you says it would not fit over the front cover, then the other backs his buddy up, then comes back and contradicts everything that was stated.

Now, speed_nyc comes on and says it would fit over the front cover but it was "swimming"? WOW, what a change of story.

Got news for you, there is NO S5 version. There is only one part number for the front cover, there is no S4 or S5, just 86-91 turbo N302-16-2210. All you did was replace it with the same part. Now all of a sudden there was NO need for a new clutch fork or TO bearing? Come on get your stories straight.

I didn't accuse you of being anything, but I guess if the shoe fits.... You are correct, I don't know who you are or even what shop you are supposed to work for. All I have is how you have portrayed yourself in this thread. Honestly, it does not look good.

You are not helping anyone by offering up garbage info. Read through the thread, I am the only person here giving 100% accurate information for the rotary community.

Actually it is you that has shown the community your true colors. All I have done is proven that I actually know what I am talking about, where as you just fly off the handle when someone proves you wrong.

Let me put this in a context you might be able to understand , just because one person has 17mm bolts holding their trans in place and "3 other mechanics witness it" ,does not mean it came from Mazda that way.

Wow, talk about unproffessional and uncalled for. It is incredible just how low you sink and how quickly. Petty name calling and attmpted insults from a moderator? You obviously should not be dealing with the public. I know as a result of you displaying your "people skills" in this thread, I would never do business with you.

what is so hard to understand?

the bearing slid over the front cover, but it was VERY loose, that means it DOES NOT FIT.

I have this front cover right here on m y desk, I offered to send it to you so you can see I am not making this up.

So either they had a different cover at one time, who knows maybe just something on j-spec transmissions, or someone in the past swapped the front cover out so they could use whatever clutch they had on the car- which I also still have IIRC, I believe I also have the clutch set up that came with this trans and front cover. I even have the throw out bearing that came with it as well. Tell you what- measure the diameter of the shaft on the front cover of a TII trans there and I will tell you what the diameter of the one I have here is, you will see they are different.

I purchased the new front cover and my issue was solved.

Why is this so hard to understand? You think we dont know how its supposed to fit?


From the start I ASKED:

I did not come here and preach it as gospel, I was giving my experience, then you come and say that people are confused, ripping you off, shade tree, bending me over. Giving bad information- so you think I made this whole front cover story up?

STILL I ASK HOW DID I GET BENT OVER AND RIPPED OFF?

I have this different front cover that was on my transmission, there is NO DISPUTING that.

You basically called him a thief and a shadetree mechanic but you want him to come here and be sweet and kind to you? Even I stuck up for you when that clown was saying you sold him a bogus greddy intercooler, you yourself should show some professional courtesy when the people involved are all telling you what went down, maybe you could learn something.
I have been doing what I do for close to 20 years, I only wish that not a day goes by I dont learn something

Now that I actually have a specific fault diagnosis, I will give you a clue to what the real problem most likely was. The FD front cover has a diameter of just about 1.3" the FC is right around 1.4". They have the same bolt pattern. This would explain the issue that you were seeing.

So you are both still wrong, there are NOT two different FC front covers. ACT, Exedy, Cetnerforce are NOT all wrong with their clutch kits and for future people reading this thread it is NOT necessary to buy the parts that these two did. An stock S5 trans will bolt directly to an S4.

Now you can mark today and the last few off your calender as learning something new.

instead of being a jackass about it, why dont you READ where I said that maybe someone had changed the front cover on my trans, I said it was used.


Buy the parts, lol, a simple front cover is what I had to buy, oh good lord thats a handfull.

From the start I ASKED and gave my experience, but you just went off on this "you got ripped off, bent over, screwed over" tangent. I did not come on here and tell people to buy this and buy that, I had asked and then you went on your high and mighty lecture.

Now I thought FDs had a different clutch set up then FCs? I have never had a FD or worked on one, but I thought they operated differently?
To be using a FD front cover that would mean they had a FD throw out bearing and a clutch set up right?

Actually it is you and your buddy with the "high and mighty attitudes". You asked a question of which I responded and you started arguing about the answer. If you know so much, why are you asking? Then I told you that your info was flawed, you proceeded to freak out, and found the need to go get someone else to prove that what you were arguing was correct. I see this all too often with people, they ask a question they think they know the answer to as a "test", then get all bent out of shape when they are proven wrong. Your attempts to "learn me sumtin' " started at post 15

Is your memory that bad? Go to page 1, start reading.

You still do not have the common decency to offer an apology for the way you have been acting? Absolutely unreal. You just want to hand out lame excuses about not knowing about FD's. What about the four other mechanics?

You really think I am going to answer any more of your questions? I will however gladly help other people, that have a real question.

I have a real question:

Quick background:
I have a GSL-SE with a TII swap. I blew out my S4 transmission which I beleive that the GSL-SE tail on it but it may be an S4. I have a Japanese S5 transmission that I bought which I cleaned up and (attempted) to swap the tail over from my transmission. I torqued everything down, but the drive spindle is not centered and a cut off drive shaft I have laying around will not fit in correctly.

My questions are this:

Is there a secret to assembling the tail to the transmission (e.g. torque sequence etc)?

Is there something I may be doing wrong?

Anyone with experience or technical info, please pipe in.

actually here is where it got ugly, up until then I was ASKING QUESTIONS. GO back and read it yourself, I was ASKING QUESTIONS. NOT preaching my words as gospel or throwing around terms like flawed, screwed, shafted, shadetree, etc.

I was asking why there were different parts listed, what the difference was, and saying that after my problem the solution was a new front cover.

Then you chimed in with your "robxx7 was getting shafted, sorry rob you got screwed"

HOW DID I GET SCREWED AND SHAFTED? You have still not explained yourself. You just assume that I had a bunch of guys ripping me off, for what I dont know as they did not get the commission from the sale or any left over parts, I got it all.

So then you expect the mechanic to be nice and sweet to you, you call him a thief and a shadetree mechanic but he should kiss you on your cheek?


So again- if I had a FD front cover then I should have had a FD clutch set up correct?


Mikerec- I cant help you with that, have you also tried the 1st gen section as im sure alot more of them have experience with your swap?

[QUOTE=


Mikerec- I cant help you with that, have you also tried the 1st gen section as im sure alot more of them have experience with your swap?[/QUOTE]

Well I'm not expecting anyone here in the FC section to have specifice knowledge. More like can someone post pictures of the S4 and the S5 turbo transmission mounts as that will at least help me identify my tail.

I will the the fighting continue ;)

I dont know if this guy's pictures will help you any?

http://www.16paws.com/rx7/index.html

alot of butt hurt goin on in this thread

I have both in my living room (don't ask), what could I post to end this?