N/a Rotors + Turbo
 

ok my question is since im only putting a T08 on my 6 port shouold i go ahead get RX-8 E shaft and RA seals and not worry about getting FD rotors? i mean its a realy small turbo so its not alot of boost.im curious what you uys think. no im not going bigger turbo i already have the T08 out my old volvo and i want the fast spool of the T08.

WTF is a "T08"???


-Ted

oh sorry from what i haven been told its the stock turbocharger off the B230FT from a 1989 Volvo 740 turbo intercooler.

lol

Turbo is way too small for a 13B.

i know its small but its free. and spools faster then a superchager LOL.

free??

the turbo may be free...but you will spend a ton of money straping it on there for marginal gains (if that). Then when you realize its too small and crappy you will have to spend a whole lot more money re-buying everything in order to fit the correct size turbo.

+1 on the turbo being too small, keep your na rotors and use the money your were going to pay for the FD rotors for a stock FC turbo with a ported wastegate. I use S4 na rotors and push 10+ psi on an upgraded turbo. I've got just the turbo for you with the waste gate ported to over 30mm. If you're interested pm me.

LOL my buddy has one of those that turbo is like one of the smallest ive seen (except on VW TDI) I bet it would actually make you lose power... The stock rx-7 turbo is about 33% larger and spools up plenty quick.

thanks you answered my question unlike everyone else. that fact your using N/A rotors with 10+ means my S5 with like 4-5 psi should be fine. i know it seems retarted to use a T08 but i dont hope for much power at all. its getting ITBs and turbo(like the Skyline GT-R) so i will have unbelievable throttle response and the unheard of low end rotary power. :lol:

im having to custom make alot of parts so i'll make it as easy as possible to swap to a bigger turbo when the time comes.

theres more to just getting a turbo and putting it on the motor.. with that very small turbo it is gonna spool even when u are out of gear which is bad.theres no point in it even though its free its still a pos and shouldnt be used. u can get a s4 turbo for about 100$ maybey less and atleast have a chance at somting.

rotary engines take a turbo with a hotside that is twice as large as say your given honda motor because of the great differences

I truly believe that turbo will restrict air to the engine rather then increase. The problem is that 5psi from that turbo wont be equivilant in any way to 5 psi from a larger turbo. It has to do w/ the amount of air your compressing. You will have better performance and it will be MUCH cheaper to run a stock turbo.

alright i'll look into other turbos i mean motor wise i know some about N/A and almost nothing about turbo. but i know a decent amount about drivetrain(im on my 3rd tranni after all.

That turbo will make awesome torque and power...up to about 3500 RPM or so.

It is WAY, WAY too small. It's designed for a small displacement 4 cylinder and even on that engine probably runs out of grunt at 5K.

It will be an absolute and total waste of time to even consider putting this turbo on a 13B. When moving to a real turbo, none of the parts you would have fabricated (manifold, downpipe, turbo outlet pipe, oil and water lines) would be any use at all. It would be remarkable if this turbo made more power then the stock NA engine. I'm betting it would make less power then a stock S5 NA due to the massive exhaust buttplug that is the turbine. You'll probably need to downgrade your fuel system to make this work.

Don't run the S5 NA rotors under boost if you plan on staying reliable. In my opinion the compression is too high. Most people who do this don't have very long engine life. S4 NA rotors are fine. Currently I'm running 13 PSI on my GT40R using S4 NA rotors.

All those other people who "didn't" answer your question were giving you a much better answer then the one you wanted.

Being very new to rotarys and the RX7 but knowing a lot about cars in general. Why is the S4 NA able to run with boost and the S5 NA not? Does the S5 have a high compression ratio or something?

I am going to pick up an S4 tomorrow and am trying to decide what i can/want to do with it.

/End Hijack

ok well since i wont use the T08 would a GT35R be a good turbo for a rotary with FD or Turbo 2 rotors? i know its more expensive but its gonna be all or nothing on the turbo.

Yes the n/a has higher compression rotor's then the turbo's s5 also has higher then s4 its all in the FAQ if you look. Or on www.rotaryresurrection.com tech section.


If you still have the options of which rotor's go w/ s5 turbo rotor's. There higher compression but not enough to the point that you have to worry.

Are you trying to turbo a 6 port?

The compression of the S5 NA is higher then the S4, which in the past has generally meant that it's not very reliable under boost.

Don't buy an NA with the intent of turbocharging it. Get a TII instead.

I see. I am not getting the NA intending to Turbo it, i am thinking i might fix it, sell it for a profit, then use the $$$ to get a nice car. But if i did decide to keep it i was woundering what my options are.

TII's down here are $4k+, way out of my price range, and those hardly show up.

ok well i have a line on a S5 turbo and exhast manifold so i guess i'll run that.


now anyone on here run ITBs on a turbo system? would a haltech work ECU wise? im wanting to do electric Aux accuators with a Aux bridge,streetport main, and agressive streetport on the exhaust. low comp rotors(t2 or FD) RX-8 eshaft, RX-8 stat gears,ITBs,FMIC. what porblems do you see with this setup?

Auxiliary bridge is one problem, I'm not an expert on it but I've heard it's a bad idea, especially if your so concerned about low end response. In addition, all that porting on the intake and the exhaust will not work well with the stock turbo waste gate, even if it is an S5 turbo. With a street port on the intake and exhaust ports you will get massive boost creep and blow your engine right away. ITB's on a turbo are not common at all, it will take a lot of time and money to make work and probably still won't work well. I don't think the hp gains(if any) would be worth the extra time, money and headaches.

I think the cheapest and easiest route would be for you to throw that S5 turbo(after porting the wastegate) on your na engine and then use a TII ecu, map sensor, and AFM. You would be able to run 5-7 psi. Better yet, get an rtek 2.1 and you could run more by just making some timing adjustments. Then when you pop your engine because you realize you can never get enough boost, you can buy a 13bt and drop it right in using your na harness and run even more boost.

When I first decided to go turbo on my vert, I did a lot of research on the subject on the best way to turbo an na. I found that buying a J-spec engine re-buliding, and then using a turbo ecu, afm and boost sensor was the best choice for 90% of people wanted to turbo their na's. This is not to say that there aren't other ways to do it, but the other ways will involve more time and money to complete and often don't yield the best results.

Ordering a J spec and rebuilding it would be $2000+ with the additional work you'd need to do of taking the engine out so I disagree. If you want to shoot for big HP numbers then that would be the best route. I say stock TII turbo, RTEK (+wideband), fuel pump, 720cc sec.'s, manifold spacer/ported TII LIM, run oil and coolant supply and enjoy.

I think he made that sound deceivingly easy and inexpensive.
I also think he's overestimating how much work it is to swap a jspec in, it took me 1 whole day to remove the original engine and install the TII motor minus the wiring, and that was my first time ever doing a swap of any kind.

To source all the parts he listed, buy them, ship them, wait for them and install them would be much more work and more expensive than it looks at first glance. The N332 ecu ($100) Rtek 2.1 ($400), wideband($250), Turbo ($200), Manifold spacer($150),Fuel pump ($100), LIM($ 50), Custom AN lines for oil and coolant lines ($200), 550cc/min primary's ($100), 720 cc/min secondaries($150), TII AFM($50), TII MAP sensor($40). That puts him up over $1700 and thats just to turbo your high millage na engine that will require substantial tuning(more money or gobs more research) to run properly since you will be running a 6 port motor with 9.7:1 compression rotors under boost. After all this, you will still only be able to boost 10psi maybe with such high compression and will probably pop because he's already got 100k on the motor anyway.

If you get a j-spec 13bt for $1000, an AFM, MAP sensor, TII fuel pump and TII ecu for another $250, and throw it all in you'll have a less complex, more reliable tried and proven setup with the potential for higher boost and more power for less total time, money, effort and research.

I had to make this decision for myself 5 years ago, I spend the time to look at all the options, read through many other peoples opinions and experiences on this topic, price all the parts, consider the amount of time and work involved, the limitations of na conversion and the power and reliability goals I had in mind and decided that a jspec was the way to go. I encourage you to spend the time researching so you can make the best decision for yourself.

...lost?


-Ted

damn.... i totally messed up I have the S5 and im boosting!!! So you all are saying its not gona last to long??

OK. With the stock turbo boost response on a high compression engine is basically instant. It's a joy to drive, but you'll be in 4th gear on the highway to avoid building boost. Standard advice applies: Best to use as standalone ECU though you can make it work with either the stock NA or TII ECU.

Some run ITBs on turbo cars. For the power you will be making with the stock turbo (275 HP or so) it's not necessary. It would just be harder to tune for no real reason. Haltech makes a number of ECUs, most of which will work with the rotary.

Don't aux bridgeport it. If you are going to bridgeport, then do a proper half bridge or full bridge. I'm not going to get into the whole aux bridgeport thing right now. It does work, but not in the way you are assuming it does. Still creates most of the overlap of standard bridgeports, doesn't flow as much, and totally breaks the stock intake manifold.

Keep in mind that if you want to run a bridgeport, you will need a decent sized turbo. TO4R, GT40R, T70, etc. Big...

Based on the questions you have asked, everything. You are sort of all over the place.

What are your HP goals?

What he said.

It will last as long as how good your tune is. Keep fuel conservative (don't go above 11:1 under boost) and keep timing below 15 degrees under boost.

Sorry to bump in here again, but this discussion is quite interesting to A: a new S5 owner and B: a power freak.

I keep hearing about the 6 ports, from what i have read, they are extra ports that open after XX RPM to allow more air in/out. Am i right so far?

I also keep seeing people say anlog the lines of the 6 ports being bad but then they say good in the next line? Basicaly i have read too much info and don't know what the 6 ports are for anymore and if they are good or bad.

It would seem to me that they would be good but i guess i am wrong.

This idea of running the stock TII turbo for near intant boost intrqes me, i am not looking for anything out of this world, just some get up and go power. I guess i should get it running before I plan a turbo conversion though...lol

This should be in it's own thread...

The aux ports open under load around 3800 RPM. They are another set of intake ports above the secondaries. When they open, port timing is extended considerably, as well as airflow.

People who say the 6 port design is bad are stupid. All 13B NA Mazda rotary engines since '84 have been 6 port, for good reason. It maximizes low end torque while providing the airflow and extended port timing needed to good high RPM power.

I know, sorry but had i made a thread what would have happened? I would have asked that, then got yelled at to search (which is part of the reason i am so confused in the first place) then had a big argument over the pros and cons of it and got yelled at some more then a few weeks later finally get a real awnser. Just didn't feel like going through that for a quick questions....lol

Thanks for the Awnser!

Ok, this is really

/end Hijack

alright so Aux bridge is bad.

im looking for 350-400RWHP and a redline in the 9,000RPM area. im not going to turbo till i rebiuld cause my current motor is on 195,XXX miles so if i throw boost on it now it'll blow within the week. LOL

now what kinda turbo woud be a good bet? a 20G or T04Z maybe? keep in mind i do want to overbiuld this some so its not going to blow easy.(i wanted to biuld an nissan RB motor usinf the RD(deisl RB) block. LOL yea im nuts

350 - 400 HP doesn't require a bridge of any kind.

6 port or 4 port, both will do the job. 4 port is easier.

GT35 will do it with great turbo response. TO4Z is pretty big, 20G is pretty small.

Not to overtake this thread,
but instead of my 20g i should go with a gt35?

andrew. derek runs a GT35R i think.

ok new queation i saw a thing on putting a miata tranni in a N/A trans case. well im thinking of doing something similar with these high performance Miata gears.
http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?...0500%20%20WIDE

what do you think?

Just get a turbo drivetrain.

You're right...
Intrinsically, the 6 port has longer duration and bigger intake port area.
It's arguable which flows better - two smaler ports or one larger port.

The implication is that trying to use the STOCK intake manifolds off the 6-port just makes things complication.
You gotta agree with that.
6-port + custom intake + turbo should make for a potent combination; I think this is the route you too?

The OP is just...lost.
Looks like he was reading about a bunch of stuff, and now he's trying to combine all of that limited reading into a project which will never get off the ground.
Again, it all ends up being an exercise in intellectual futility.

Side note...
The RB26DETT off a Nissan Skyline GT-R uses individual TB's - 3 pairs for it's 6 cylinder.
BIG power RB26 builders yank all that shit and run ONE huge TB.
This just shows how stupid it is to run ITB's.
Then you gotta worry about getting a stable pressure / vacuum signal from that whole mess, cause you end up with two intake passages with very strong intake pulsations...
How do you deal with that???


-Ted

Good info and I appreciate the advice, but as far as I know Jspecs are a hit or miss as far as the condition goes. I don't trust any rotary engine thats been sitting for years, maybe if I babied it. And to cut that list down a bit, he doesn't need the manifold spacer if hes using the modded TII IM's, he can run 460 primary/720 secondaries, and he doesn't necessarily need the TII ECU as the RTEK can compensate for larger injectors.

My engines a rebuild at 40k with no problems so I will be going this route (after tuning the NA engine some with the RTEK to get a feel), and you definitely don't need 10psi on a 6 port to have fun unless you only drive straight...I'd probably need no more than 200whp. As mentioned earlier for bigger power goals a 13BT would probably be the best route. And even if it isn't the most cost effective route I still wouldn't regret it after the knowledge and experience I'd get with custom fabricating. After all this is why we own RX-7s, cause we like tinkering :) After I get my beastly 150cc scooter the rex is going under the knife :Kill1:

200 whp, you can get N/A, but I guess it's much easier to use a turbo though....

It would require removing the engine and taking it apart which any type of heavy line work is out of the question for me since all the work I do to my car is in a tiny carport:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...d496d32c25.jpg

I do hope that my ACT S1 clutch will hold up though...

But do you really want to move your car to SM2 instead of SP?

To be honest with you I could care less which class I'm in as I only autocross for fun. I have more fun tuning the suspension and noticing the changes than I do comparing times. The simple fact that lightweight cars like Hondas, Miatas, etc. and experienced drivers (5+ yrs) have a massive advantage (I've driven my friends Miata, and its almost cheating) draws me away from the sport. The last event I ran within 1 second of my friend's built turbo vert on R's with a roll bar, sways, AGX's, RB springs, but stock alignment on a horsepower course so that was enough to convince me that I was getting the most out of the car. Plus being in school and having VERY limited funds I can either mod or autocross and since I haven't messed with the engine at all I'd rather mod.

Jspecs are hit and miss, I spent some time checking them out in person before picking one up, maybe I got lucky, but I've installed a few other j-specs into my buddies cars and they have been running with out compression or water seal issues for quite some time now. Mine ran great until I creeped it to death at 17psi. When I opened it up, it looked great inside. I was able to reuse all the major components besides the rear housing and rotor which I damaged w/ detonation.

You said that he might not need a TII ecu, but the rtek 2.1 for TII's requires that you start with a TII ecu. I would not recommend using a Rtek 2.1 for non turbos in a boosted car. You would not be able to adjust timing in boost which is one of the Rteks most valuable features IMO.

If you are going to buy an Rtek I think you should consider buying a turbo ecu (N332 or N333) and sending it, rather than your NA ecu to pocketlogger. The Turbo Rtek 2.1 could run your NA, but NA Rtek wouldn't be able to run a turbo motor safely. I actually think that it would help you to learn to tune a mean vacuum map before having to deal with the risks associated with learning to tune in boost with a high compression engine. You would need the TII AFM and MAP to go with the Rtek for TII to run it turbo charged, but may not while you still have it NA. Turbo2liter or Henrik could probably tell you for sure though.

+1 on the knowledge and experience offsetting the fact that we pour thousands of dollars into these 20 year old cars. ( I have to tell myself this to fall asleep at night :[).

Best of luck with your project.

The 20G is a tiny turbo compard to even the stock HT-18. Almost any turbo off of any small piston engine is too small for the rotary. In general, anything with "T3" in the name is too small.

The GT35R is about the perfect turbo for 90% of applications on the 13B.