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How well do our oil coolers, cool.
Im just wondering how well they work.
I was thinking, a lot of air must go around the cooler since its so small and there is really no gaurd around it to keep the air infront of it instead of going above or around it. So I wonder if I pay the guy near me to weld on some 1/16" aluminum to the sides of the cooler, and have them angled outward a little to help direct the air flow into and through the cooler? I was also thinking, with an electric fan turning on or off according to coolant temp and not oil temp (which I wouldn't have the rad fan do anyways), the oil cooler must be getting pretty hot considering the air flow through it must be very minimal? Any thoughts on this? |
I've been wondering about this too. Would putting 2 small high cfm fans on the oil cooler be benificial in anyway? If so, why?
I've even seen people put 2 oil coolers. Is it worth it? Because its really not hard to do. |
if you are worried about air going around it why dont you make up some ducting
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Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6984728)
Im just wondering how well they work.
I was thinking, a lot of air must go around the cooler since its so small and there is really no gaurd around it to keep the air infront of it instead of going above or around it. So I wonder if I pay the guy near me to weld on some 1/16" aluminum to the sides of the cooler, and have them angled outward a little to help direct the air flow into and through the cooler? I was also thinking, with an electric fan turning on or off according to coolant temp and not oil temp (which I wouldn't have the rad fan do anyways), the oil cooler must be getting pretty hot considering the air flow through it must be very minimal? Any thoughts on this? Setting the fans to turn on\off with coolant temps, means that they will be ON at all times (after the initial warm up period)... |
The first question would be, are you having high oil temp problems? Setting the fans to turn on\off with coolant temps, means that they will be ON at all times (after the initial warm up period)... While idling, the engine temp heats up and the e-fan eventually turns on and off. but while sitting still there is NO air flow through the oil cooler so how hot is the oil actually getting. This might be another CON with e-fans. if you are worried about air going around it why dont you make up some ducting I just wanted to hear from people with oil temp gauges, to tell me what there oil temp is like. |
the oil coolers on our cars seem to be vary efficient, all that metal soking up the heat produced in the oil. as long as you have good oil pressure when not moving the oil cooler should function fine. when moving there is a lot of air flow going through the front of your car, that huge fan shroud creates a big ventury and pulls air across the radiator and oil cooler. i seemed to have better cooling when i got rid of my air conditioning, having that air gap bettween the oilcooler and rad. helped alot. i still have hot conditions when runing hard up hills, have so little belt contact in the water pump doesnt help, need to get that yo-ho belt from pineapple racing.
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Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6985343)
This is the question I have in my head, I don't know if im having oil temp issues. I don't exactly know what to look for if the oil is overheating.
My suggestion before you do anything, is to get an oil temp gauge. Oil temps were never a problem on my NA or stock mount intecooler days...
Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6985343)
If you were to have fans on the oil cooler, obveously you would use a oil temp switch or sensor and use the Simple Voltage Switch that I hope to get soon for the coolant fan.
Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6984728)
I was also thinking, with an electric fan turning on or off according to coolant temp and not oil temp
Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6985343)
I just wanted to hear from people with oil temp gauges, to tell me what there oil temp is like.
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If this is your plan, then the oil cooler fans WILL be on at all times... Do you have a FMIC or any other device that WILL block the air? KNONFS, do you have a oil temp gauge? all that metal soking up the heat produced in the oil as long as you have good oil pressure when not moving the oil cooler should function fine that huge fan shroud creates a big ventury and pulls air across the radiator and oil cooler With the gap between the rad and oil cooler, the fan would simply pull air from around the the oil cooler and very little through it. Air takes the path of least resistance. With the A/C condenser in place, I forget how close all three heat exchangers were together, but im sure the A/c condenser with the full shround helped to duct some of the air flow through the oil cooler. |
Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6985896)
Nope, I have a N/A, but air rushing in wont just easily go through the cooler. A lot of it will go AROUND the cooler. Now while you are NOT driving, im wondering how hot the temps would get since there is ZERO airflow through the cooler. I may or may not have oil temp problems, but im trying to think of ways to make it work more efficiant since im seeing how it may not be working to its full potential.
As I said, never had an issue with oil temps before the FMIC. I see were you are coming from, but if is not broken why fix it?
Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6985896)
KNONFS, do you have a oil temp gauge?
Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6985896)
I have a e-fan without a shroud. I am going to make one though. It would probubly work better if I had the cooler ducked straight to the engine rad, since I don't have not A/C, there is a gap there. So if I build a shroud that goes from top to the bottom of the rad and have the oil cooler ducted to the rad and sealed off with some slit rubber vacuum line, I should get some air flow through the cooler, and if I have a shround on the front to direct air into the cooler and keep it instead of having it go around, that should also help.
With the gap between the rad and oil cooler, the fan would simply pull air from around the the oil cooler and very little through it. Air takes the path of least resistance. I thought about moving the efan to the other side of the radiator (I am not running the A/C), and make it a pusher rather than a puller. That way the efan will be closer to the oil cooler, sort of pulling air from the oil cooler, and pushing it through the radiator. That's an idea, that probably won't work without some ducting, another idea is to move the oil cooler closer to the radiator, and maximize the radiator's efan pulling air. I have considered small ATV fans for the oil cooler, but for now I have to finish other things before I can play with that theory... |
Ya I suppose it wouldn't be to hard to make some brackets to move the cooler closer to the rad. I have heard and I think this way as well, unles proven wrong, that the e-fan is les efficient at pushing air then it is pulling air.
but if is not broken why fix it? |
fyi, the skyline guys use our oil cooler as an upgrade
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Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6985974)
If you engine is not broken, why make it perform better? :) Same goes for the heat exchangers.
Its not the same, as the oil cooler has an internal thermostat; you can move the oil cooler to the front of the bumper cover opening, the thermostat will always regulate the temp. Unless you are looking into running colder oil temps, I don't see what good is going to do you; besides cooler oil (under 185F) is not a good thing either. |
Its not the same, as the oil cooler has an internal thermostat; you can move the oil cooler to the front of the bumper cover opening, the thermostat will always regulate the temp. But with that said, I do like hearing you have or had basically the same setup; no a/c, no FMIC; and had no issues. I will get a Oil Temp Gauge so i know. I recently switched to AMSOIL which performs better then any other oils under high heat so I should be ok there IF the temps are not low enough. The bypass valve in the oil cooler im sure is primarily there for emmisions so the engine heats up quicker. Once the engine is heated, im sure that bypass valve in the cooler never opens since its rated to start closing at 140-145*F. Now having that said...... Yes, 185F was the max, before the FMIC; I could actually see the oil cooler thermostat opening and closing. I Like the conversation :) |
Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6986139)
The bypass valve will regulate the flow of oil to the cooler depending on the oil temp.
I know nothing of how the oil cooler works, but what I'm getting from KNONFS the bypass valve he is talking about is INSIDE the oil cooler and activates at 185F, starting the flow through the cooler finned portion, when its off, it just bypasses the cooling fins and pipes it back to the engine... I like the cooling fan idea, but only as an additional measure of protection from super-heated oil during hard runs in autoX or what not, but... it might be overkill, expecially for an NA that doesn't have any turbo's to cool/lube. |
I'm pretty sure thats incorrect. The bypass valve you are thinking of is the thermopellet, and it doesn't push oil to the oil cooler... it just releases it back into the pan/front cover area. And for most of us with the thermopellet replacements, the oil cooler would be cooling 100% of the time. Oil has an optimum operating temperature, so this wouldn't be ideal. I know nothing of how the oil cooler works, but what I'm getting from KNONFS the bypass valve he is talking about is INSIDE the oil cooler and activates at 185F, starting the flow through the cooler finned portion, when its off, it just bypasses the cooling fins and pipes it back to the engine... I like the cooling fan idea, but only as an additional measure of protection from super-heated oil during hard runs in autoX or what not, but... it might be overkill, expecially for an NA that doesn't have any turbo's to cool/lube. I can see where you got confused. When I said it regulates oil TO the cooler. I meant to the inside of the cooler. Where the oil actually has the abuility to be cooled. The thermopellet your talking about in the center of the main pulley basically does the same thing. I havn't read up on exactly how the one in the pulley works since I don't have it any more. Maybe I will read up on that one just for shits. Ya I have been doing some searching and it seems normal oil temps are around 180*F but can reach 200*F. So the bypass valve would always stay closed while the engine is running. I wouldn't put fans on the cooler but instead would make it work with the fan that is on the rad and try to direct airflow through it better to make it more efficient. |
I understood you correctly.. I just still think you are wrong. Which is okay. Wouldn't be the first time I've been proven wrong.... won't be the last.
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I understood you correctly.. I just still think you are wrong. Which is okay. Wouldn't be the first time I've been proven wrong.... won't be the last. My bad. We still seeing differently? |
I feel the stock cooler works just fine the way it is. My oil temps stay at about 150-160 and whhile pushing it hard up a hill will climb up to about 190. Moves porportional to water temp. Also there is no load on the engines while the car isn't moving and the stock fan moves enough air to keep temps low. I don't get this whole talk about fans, you would only need more cooling when the engine is working overtime so the airflow over the cooler is already greater from 60mph then a fan can provide. Kinda like your rad fan is freewheeling when driving down the highway.
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My .02 cents.You don't want the Oil to be TOO cool.Oil is Thinner when it is Hot.That is GOOD.it is able to do it's Job of Lubricating the Parts it needs to get at.The Oil System also acts like a Cooling system too.Since the oil is getting Circulated Through the Cooler to Bring the Temp Down.The Oil cooler on an N/a is a Fair size too,so it is capable of Doing it's Job.In my Opinion Putting On a Fan is just Dead weight,and really,If you have the Underbelly Tray on,then the Cooler is getting sufficient Air to it.(the Engine temps will be Higher without the Belly tray,so it is Wise to keep it ON.)
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Originally Posted by RotaMan99
I was thinking, a lot of air must go around the cooler since its so small and there is really no gaurd around it to keep the air infront of it instead of going above or around it. So I wonder if I pay the guy near me to weld on some 1/16" aluminum to the sides of the cooler, and have them angled outward a little to help direct the air flow into and through the cooler?
I was also thinking, with an electric fan turning on or off according to coolant temp and not oil temp (which I wouldn't have the rad fan do anyways), the oil cooler must be getting pretty hot considering the air flow through it must be very minimal? Now while you are NOT driving, im wondering how hot the temps would get since there is ZERO airflow through the cooler. I may or may not have oil temp problems, but im trying to think of ways to make it work more efficiant since im seeing how it may not be working to its full potential. With the gap between the rad and oil cooler, the fan would simply pull air from around the the oil cooler and very little through it. Air takes the path of least resistance. The bypass valve in the oil cooler im sure is primarily there for emmisions so the engine heats up quicker. One the engine is heated, im sure that bypass valve in the cooler never closes since its rated to start opening at 140-145*F. The thermopellet your talking about in the center of the main pulley basically does the same thing. I havn't read up on exactly how the one in the pulley works since I don't have it any more. Maybe I will read up on that one just for shits.
Originally Posted by F.C.3S
Would putting 2 small high cfm fans on the oil cooler be benificial in anyway?
I've even seen people put 2 oil coolers. Is it worth it? Because its really not hard to do.
Originally Posted by KNONFS
Its not the same, as the oil cooler has an internal thermostat; you can move the oil cooler to the front of the bumper cover opening, the thermostat will always regulate the temp.
Originally Posted by micaheli
I understood you correctly.. I just still think you are wrong.
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Originally Posted by NZConvertible
There's also barely any load on the engine, so it's generating very little heat. If this really was an issue, the factory would already have provided a solution. Have you every heard of oil overheating while idling?
No I havn't, but I have seen worried people with oil temps hitting 200+ while driving. Not sure if thats overheating or not. While at idle, your engine can still cook. Your right it doesn't produce a lot of heat, but it will cook its self if there is no airflow through the rad. So it must be the same about the oil correct? The coolant and oil temps do tend to follow each other somewhat. You're trying to solve a problem that most likely doesn't exist. Well it's not just for emissions, as there are other benefits to heating up the engine quicker. But you're right that flow through the oil cooler is not regulated to control temp like the coolant flow is. The oil cooler is essentially at full flow from the moment to the oil passes ~145degF to when the engine is switched off and the oil is allowed to cool below that. I doubt anything you do to the oil cooler will get the oil temp that low, but you still don't necessarily want to be lowering oil temps. The oil fed into the eccentric shaft does two things: it lubricates the rotor bearings and it's squirted onto the inside of the rotors for cooling (this is the main reason for the oil cooler). When the engine is cold, a bypass port at the front of the shaft is open, which reduces oil pressure in the shaft and prevents the oil squirters from working. This helps the engine warm up faster. When the oil heats up the thermal pellet expands and blocks the bypass ports, making the squirters functional. Contrary to popular belief, this doesn't cause damage to the bearings, as there's still enough pressure to protect them during the warm-up when you're supposed to be going easy on the motor.
Originally Posted by Will S
Moves porportional to water temp. Also there is no load on the engines while the car isn't moving and the stock fan moves enough air to keep temps low. I don't get this whole talk about fans, you would only need more cooling when the engine is working overtime so the airflow over the cooler is already greater from 60mph then a fan can provide. Kinda like your rad fan is freewheeling when driving down the highway.
Originally Posted by misterstyx69
Oil is Thinner when it is Hot.That is GOOD
Originally Posted by NZConvertible
He's right. You're confusing two separate systems, although both are there for the same reason (faster warm-up).
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I also feel the need to point out that this is about 1000th time this has been covered in the last 12 months. A search for "aftermarket oil cooler", "oil cooler upgrade" and variations would have turned up the many past threads....
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Considering I was not thinking of putting in an aftermarket oil cooler, I had no reason to search for that, same with, oil cooler upgrade. However, I did search for oil temp and found that everyone was staying at around 180 or so for oil temp, BUT that is with stock cooling equipment.
This thread could bring up better points to consider when thinking about oil cooler cooling or swapping to an electric fan or removing the a/c condensor. |
Originally Posted by NZConvertible
(Post 6987265)
See above, oil temp is not regulated like coolant temp.
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Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6987561)
Considering I was not thinking of putting in an aftermarket oil cooler, I had no reason to search for that, same with, oil cooler upgrade. However, I did search for oil temp and found that everyone was staying at around 180 or so for oil temp, BUT that is with stock cooling equipment.
This thread could bring up better points to consider when thinking about oil cooler cooling or swapping to an electric fan or removing the a/c condensor. |
I'm curious: Is the A/C condenser supposed to have a piece of metal on the bottom it that partially blocks the back side of the oil cooler, and part of the front of the condenser?
Because the one I put on my car from the junkyard does...and it looked like it was supposed to be there, but it didn't make much sense. OTOH I haven't noticed any temperature or A/C problems even with it on there... |
Originally Posted by RotaMan99
...I can't decided completly if the condenser between the rad and oil cooler would help direct the pulled air through the oil cooler or not.
While at idle, your engine can still cook. Your right it doesn't produce a lot of heat, but it will cook its self if there is no airflow through the rad. So it must be the same about the oil correct? Probubly doesn't, but why not make it work more efficient?
Originally Posted by KNONFS
So it doesn't close if the oil temp fall under 145F?
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Originally Posted by NZConvertible
(Post 6994875)
Yes it does, but that doesn't happen during driving, it only happens once the engine's been turned off and left to cool. I did say that... I don't know the exact oil temp, but during winter time; even with a FMIC, the oil temps are considerably lower |
Originally Posted by KNONFS
I am confused, I don't get how it *only* closes when the engine is off. Does it works by temp and pressure?
Originally Posted by NZConvertible
While this is a logical assumption, it must be incorrect otherwise it would be a very common and well-know problem. There are plenty of people with electric fans and oil temp gauges, but I've never heard any of these people talk about idle oil temp being an issue.
Because if your temps are okay now, even at full load, then improving the oil cooler's efficiency will lower the oil temp, which isn't necessarily a good thing. No, it wouldn't help at all. I'm curious: Is the A/C condenser supposed to have a piece of metal on the bottom it that partially blocks the back side of the oil cooler, and part of the front of the condenser? Because the one I put on my car from the junkyard does...and it looked like it was supposed to be there, but it didn't make much sense. OTOH I haven't noticed any temperature or A/C problems even with it on there |
all of my readings have been with a flex a lite black magic fan |
Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6994970)
It works by temp only. Considering while your engine is running and at operating temps, your oil temp should not get to 145*F, the bypass valve will be closed ABOVE 145*F. When we say closed, we mean that it closed the bypass hole for the oil which if opened, would allow the oil to flow directly through the cooler end tank without flowing through the cooler its self.
As I stated, oil temps are are way cooler during winter time, unfortunately; I never recorded their readings. |
Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6994978)
Which has a shroud :) I am probubly thinking to hard on this subject.
Yes it does, but it only covers 3/4 of the radiator. |
Originally Posted by KNONFS
(Post 6994951)
I am confused, I don't get how it *only* closes when the engine is off. Does it works by temp and pressure?
Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6994970)
Im still undecided.
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How could something behind the oil cooler guide air that's in front of it? That makes no sense. So using the a/c condensor, which I forget exactly how close it was to each exchanger but I would think that it could help guide this.......vacuum? Again don't know what to call it, through the oil cooler, or somthing like that.... |
Originally Posted by NZConvertible
(Post 6995004)
The oil temp doesn't cool enough to open the bypass until the engine stops running. How could it? It's circulating through an engine who's coolant never drops below 180degF.
Well, on normal spring\fall days, the oil temp does match the coolant temp; however on summer\winter time thats not really the case. For example on a hot summer day, the oil temp will match the coolant temp, and then proceeds to climb above 200F (with a FMIC). In my experience, the coolant temp does not moves from 185F (normal every day reading on the autometer gauge, E6K reads +/- 3 degrees) untill the oil temps reach 210-215F, at that point the coolant temp starts climbing slowly. On the other hand, during winter timel the coolant temp will reach 185F fairly fast; while the oil temps take its time to rach that level, however as soon as the car starts moving, oil temps go down from its normal readings. On my case, my daily route constitues of small up and down hills. During a 20 mile trip of up and down hills, oil temps do go under 160F (I know they go lower than that, but can't ramember the exact number); while coolant temps stay at 185F. All readings are based on Autometer's phantom electrical oil\coolant temp gauges. oil temp is measured at the oil filter, and water temp under the water thermostat. I am not arguing with you, just trying to understand who it works, based on my experience. |
You got snow stuffed on the oil cooler during the winter. There is your problem :):):)
JP |
Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6995041)
You got snow stuffed on the oil cooler during the winter. There is your problem :):):)
JP |
hahaha. :)
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Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6995017)
No no no, the air that is being pulled, the way im thinking of it is like 2 straws, suck in one and hold the 2nd straw an inch away from the first straws end and put your finger over the 2nd straw, you will feel no suction, now put the straws together or atleast so they are tuching, now the air you are sucking through the first straw is also going through the second straw. I don't know what you would call this, guiding vacuum?
So using the a/c condensor, which I forget exactly how close it was to each exchanger but I would think that it could help guide this.......vacuum? Again don't know what to call it, through the oil cooler, or somthing like that....
Originally Posted by KNONFS
(Post 6995024)
Well, on normal spring\fall days, the oil temp does match the coolant temp...
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Originally Posted by RotaMan99
(Post 6994970)
hmm, could you take a picture? You wouldn't able to see if very well if I took a picture of it on the car. It's basically just a peice of sheet metal that bolts onto the bottom 3 1/2 inches or so of the bottom of the front of the A/C condenser, and has a little lip that sort of catches on the top of the back of the oil cooler. |
It's called making one long straw out of two short ones. As soon as there was any gap between the two straws, the air moving through the second one would drop dramatically because it's much easier for air to enter through the gap than down the second straw. No, air simply doesn't behave like that. Besides, there is a significant gap between the A/C condensor and the oil cooler. |
Originally Posted by NZConvertible
(Post 6995291)
Besides, there is a significant gap between the A/C condensor and the oil cooler.
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That completly ended my opinion on that subject. So that idea is out the door. Thanks for commenting in. :)
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just as a little side note here as i admit to skipping most of these posts.
I look at it this way, LOTS of people with different cars upgrade to our stock oil cooler. if ours works so good that they upgrade to it, id figure it does a pretty good job. and like one other poster said, colder oil isnt always the best thing, theres a sweet spot. kevin. |
Originally Posted by KNONFS
(Post 6995024)
Well, on normal spring\fall days, the oil temp does match the coolant temp; however on summer\winter time thats not really the case. For example on a hot summer day, the oil temp will match the coolant temp, and then proceeds to climb above 200F (with a FMIC). In my experience, the coolant temp does not moves from 185F (normal every day reading on the autometer gauge, E6K reads +/- 3 degrees) untill the oil temps reach 210-215F, at that point the coolant temp starts climbing slowly.
On the other hand, during winter timel the coolant temp will reach 185F fairly fast; while the oil temps take its time to rach that level, however as soon as the car starts moving, oil temps go down from its normal readings. On my case, my daily route constitues of small up and down hills. During a 20 mile trip of up and down hills, oil temps do go under 160F (I know they go lower than that, but can't ramember the exact number); while coolant temps stay at 185F. All readings are based on Autometer's phantom electrical oil\coolant temp gauges. oil temp is measured at the oil filter, and water temp under the water thermostat. I am not arguing with you, just trying to understand who it works, based on my experience. |
2 Attachment(s)
Here's a couple of pics of the stock oil cooler, AC condensor and radiator set-up, showing the deflector behind the oil cooler. The deflector is actually mounted to the front of the AC condensor, and prevents air that's gone through the oil cooler from going through the condensor. All air that's passed through the oil cooler then goes under the condensor and through the radiator. The foam strips on the bottom of the oil cooler and radiator seal them to the undertray so air doesn't go under then instead of through. :)
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Thanks NZ! :) Its been awhile since I have seen the a/c setup.
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