How Much Power Can You...
 

...Get from an N/A motor??

I have been looking into the all motor set up since I am going to go ahead and rebuild my engine sooner then expected and just adjust the internals compression ratio so it would handle a small turbo later on down the road. But I am wanting to go ahead and build a decent powered N/A motor.

What I had in mind was to go ahead and street port the motor, put in 9.0:1 rotors, a 2 piece turbo E-shaft, 3mm ceramic Apex seals, 200mm ported throttle body, Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump, Koyo aluminum radiator, Venom 750cc primaries, Bosch 1600cc secondaries, MSD 6A ignition, ACT 6 puck clutch, Haltech e6x.

How much power would that make (round about) with out turbo? Im not wanting much more then what I have right now since later on I will be putting on a turbo and probably installing NOS. Im just wanting to keep the price relatively cheap since I am doing this before I planned. I will probably end up using some of the stock engine parts as well as long as they are in great shape. Anything that is messed up will be replaced.

Does that sound like a feasable plan or am I just way off base?

Not much.

See, you either build a motor for boost, or you build it NA. If you build it for boost, it won't make much power NA, if you build it for NA, it won't make as much power boosted and it also won't be as safe (higher comp).

Take EVERYTHING off the list, except for a standalone and radiator. Leave the compression alone also. Next, a set of ported manifolds to match the block. Get a header and full 2.5 inch exhaust with a high flow cat. Put a free flowing air filter mounted in a cold area, a new suspension setup on, and call it a day. Add nitrous as desired- about the fastest an NA is gonna get without boost.

Boost at this point seems worthless trying to explain to you, so after your driving catches up to your mods, come back, utilize the search button thoroughly, and if there are more questions sell the RX-7 and get a new hobby.

Boost seems worthless? Look first off yall tend to assume a whole hell of alot. I was turboing and supercharging cars since probably before yall had a drivers license, so whatever.

Look the car stock makes 160 hp. As long as I can keep it close to that, Im fine. But for all you numb nuts who say you cant turbo an N/A motor, yeah... you can.

I mean honestly, do you really expect me to take the suggestions of; adding a cold air intake, 2.5" exhaust (both of which the car already has), adding ported manifolds, and a suspension as power upgrades, to heart? Man your alot more dumb then you call me.

First off, altering compression isnt going to do too much for power other then leave me the option of turboing it later. Second, if adding NOS, its usually a good idea to adjust the compression anyway to avoid detonation. Third, increased fuel flow and air flow (other then a cold air intake) are the essentials for building power, and your saying to take that out???? Next, with increased fuel delivery you need a better way to ignite that fuel, but again, you say dont upgrade the ignition??

Wow!?!?! And Im labeled as an idiot??

Anyway.... Anyone else want to say something stupid?

you arent going to need that much pump and injector for a n/a. i have a feeling that it will actually run poorly. also... there is some debate over this but 3mm apex seals are a bit overkill. Im sure if you do a search you can find what you are looking for. good luck on your project

The reason I said use the search button.

The FC's ignition system is quite honestly one of the best stock systems. There is no need to upgrade it at all. There are many guys using it on 400 hp+ boosted engines.

Remember an S5 NA has a comp of 9.7:1, its really not that high of compression. Here is an excellent resource on what to do for nitrous on a rotary: https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-gen-archive-72/nitrous-oxide-injection-rotary-633853/

Talking about fuel flow, the NA FC has huge injectors stock- 460cc. even a bone stock FC runs PIG rich, I have heard of reports between 9-10:1 A/F ratios. Once properly tuned, IDC's are ridiculously low- meaning there is plenty of injector left.

If you REALLY want a strong NA click here: https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-gen-archive-72/how-make-beefy-n-need-your-recommendations-31410/

Turboing a 6 port may seem nice, but if you have a running NA, just build a 4 port and save the headaches, you can find a blown T2 block for cheap, and you'll have the same starting point as before, but the manifolds will actually bolt up, and you already have low comp pistons.

3mm apex seals are a waste(basically give you a possible second chance while tuning), 2 piece eshaft is a waste (unless you need to run at 15k rpms), Ported throttle body is a waste (port your own if you really want one), ignition I've covered, and you definitely do not need an A1000, a Walbro 255 will put you over 450.

Also- you gave no background on yourself, or your vehicles, so it is very safe to assume zero experience and zero modifications. And please keep childish name calling out of the discussion- something might be taught here and I would hate for Aaron or Funk to have to pick through it.

^See, was that so hard. I dont mean to come off as a dick but most of the people around here just say stupid shit like "Use the search button" when most people dont know what to search for.

I know the extremes of piston driven engines but and a total n00b to rotaries, so I dont know what works and dont. I dont have the time to waste looking through thousands of posts by other people only to find contradicting posts. Its just easier to ask a question and get a normal answer.

So, I apologize for coming off as abrasive or harsh, but I appreciate your help with explaining what works and what doesnt with a rotary. I really appreciate it.

N/A LS1's make 300hp out of the box, and with a good tune 350 and good MPG :)

Dude, some humility is in order.
People can see your post count, so they are going to treat you appropriately.

This kinds of threads usually end up wars, since a lot of misinformation gets posted unnecessarily.
If you had done a proper search, you would've turned up all the pertinant info a lot more quickly.

On top of that, you mentioned a lot of things that don't make sense.
3mm apex seals are backwards to what a non-turbo would require.

Yes, I've seen you post about your impressive background experience, but how much of it can be applied to these rotary engines?
Please don't take this the wrong way, but your postings already shows your ignorance, and that's why people reply the way they do in this thread.

The key to making power on an NA is porting.
Porting also dictates how "streetable" the car / engine is going to be.
So maybe you'd like to tell us what exactly you're trying to do?
We can tell you go PP and shoot for 300+ hp, but this this is going to be a beast to drive on the street...
Get the picture?

Streetports can get close to 200 at the wheels.
BP's can get up to 250...maybe a little bit more.
PP's can bust 300 at the wheels.
Think of porting as cam profiles.


-Ted

Wow. ted must have had a good day, or gotten a particularly good lay, because you just got the nicest, most relaxed reply to a rotary noob he has ever given. I think he even said please in there.


Long story short, as you have found here, you will need a thick skin when asking nearly any question. the bes tthing to do is just ignore the 'search button' responses and dont get offended by it. You could be the first person to ask a question and SOMEONE will tell you to search. that being said, you are highly unlikely to ask a question for the first time here :)


BC

You can only make 214 rwhp from an NA 13B no matter WHAT you do to it.

Period.

:D

lol

Good plan

....not a "bad" plan. But it is one if you DO plan to turbo.

Costs $2750.00 AUS + GST....I'd love one but I'm not THAT well off :tear:

3mm seals won't help an N/A......ceramic is a good idea. You can get 2mm 2 piece NRS ceramics for a little over $1100 CDN

Thats fucking huge. Look at a ruler :) 200mm = 20cm = nearly 6"

Plan on approaching the 700whp mark do you? ;)

Good plan

Planning on ~550whp? :)

.................won't hurt.

Fucking PITA to drive. I've done it and *honestly* would do it again if I needed to, but you can clamp approx. 450ftlbs of torque on a full face disc. Which in a rotary will be well over 500whp. Of course, nothing wrong with reducing parasitic loss by ~1%

Good plan....might want to look into the E8, far mor capable.

Tuned? Around 180whp.

9.0 S5 TII/FD rotors are bad for boost? :) 8.5 s4 TII rotors are the preferred choice for BIG boost though.


I believe that the proper springs for the 2mm seals are not currently available from NRS, they are still developing them. 3mm springs are available so you can get a full setup with proper springs for the 3mm. Thats the only reason I'd go with the 3mm. Personally, I'm waiting for 2mm springs from NRS before I go ceramic.


Wow, I think there may be some driveability issues with a 200mm throttle body.

My bad, I had 9.7 in my mind and thats what I responded to...


My bad again - I thought glass man could spray the OEM 2mm springs?

Not the way I drive!!!
http://smiliesftw.com/x/3gears.gif
!!! :lol: j/k

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ntake+manifold

Check out that thread. Im sure I got slighty more since I have done more and tuned more.

Done by paragraph:

1. 300HP. wHP I presume, but I dunno. Practically speaking, up to 200wHP (or less).

2. Those don't add any power, except the Haltech.

3. Reducing compression will reduce N/A power, but it is better for a turbo.

As mentioned, do a search. This has been covered before. Here's something to get you started:
Dump everything on your list. Except maybe the Haltech.

Consider getting a JDM or other TII motor. It might be cheaper than a rebuild, and you wanted to go turbo anyway. Putting a turbo on the N/A is hard. If you do get a turbo, and increase the power a bit, then those radiator and fuel system upgrades will apply.

Besides that, you can get a street port and all the basic bolt-ons (full exhaust, cold air intake for N/A or intercooler for turbo). On the s4 N/A, search "5th and 6th ports" before you get a full exhaust.

Take a look at http://www.GlobalVicinity.com too.

I think that you have an s5, right? You mentioned 160 hp and the s4s only had 146 hp

(5th and 6th ports will still work fine with a racing beat header.)

This hasn't been covered too much here, so I'll add to it: DO NOT get a 6 puck clutch. Its almost as much overkill as the fuel system you mentioned. The most you will need is an upgraded PP and possibly a better full face clutch disk. I had a street ported engine that I guesstimate made in the 160's to the wheels. I had the an ACT PP which is 34% stiffer than stock and the stock disk. It has worked flawlessly for at least 35k and its still going strong, and that was with quite a bit of abuse. Unless you bridge the engine, you won't need anything more than that.

I have a S4 and So does the owner that got over 160 RWHP on stock ports. Series4 had 146 at the flywheel in stock form. Not at the wheels.

I meant that he was ok on the operation of the 5th and 6th ports if he went to a racing beat header and exhaust.

I know that the s4 can be tuned to make more than 146 horsepower. I appologize for being unclear, I simply used the 160 horsepower as a means to conclude that he had an s5.

most ive seen was like 190rwhp out of one. but it took some series work to do it.

You said your car made 160hp stock correct? If you bought the car modified to make 160whp then it's not stock and if you think whp > flywheel hp then you are a retarded fuck.

Please don't use rwhp here.

If you want to turbocharge a high compression engine then go learn how to properly inject water into an engine.

The correct answer to your question is another question:

How much do you want to spend? You can get a peripheral port, a two-piece e-shaft, massive fuel pump, injectors, (obviously) a killer standalone ECU, a drastically lightened flywheel, new clutch, etc. etc, and I'll bet you'll see great numbers at the very top of your RPM range. Kiss your idle goodbye at one point. Of course, for that much, you could have sold the FC and bought yourself a TII and made smaller mods to achieve the same power in a more practical way.

One member had suggested that everything you know about piston motors can't help you. To an extent, that's true. All the points of failure in any piston engine (head gasket, valve float, spun bearings, etc) simply don't exist in the rotary. You get two MAJOR ones: apex seal and coolant o-ring failure. Both are due to excess heat, which, while you're making a valiant effort to reduce, will drastically increase as you push the limits of your N/A car. I don't consider N2O to be part of an NA car, so I'll let you decide if the risks are worth it.

From one enthusiast to another, trust the rotary community. If they come off abrasively, it's because you/we aren't the first people to misappropriate piston engine know-how.

I NEVER said its my car! I said take a look at the thread I linked to, to SOMEONE ELSES ENGINE THAT MADE 160+ RWHP. It was DYNOED!

I also never said MY ENGINE made 160RWHP STOCK!. Show me where I said this?
I said, HIS engine dynoed at over 160 RWHP on Stock Ports

I just reminded my self he had a S5 Engine with a S4 ECU and SAFC. This means he had the VDI intake and Hi Comp rotors. He had exhaust and intake as well.

I have a S4 engine with S5 intake and TB, ported elbow, SAFC, Custom Exhaust and will soon, in a couple weeks finish my Cold Air Intake. The TB plate shafts have also been modified. Timing is advanced as well. Pulls very hard above 5000rpm after adding fuel above 4500. I don't have the hi comp rotors but they are not that much higher anyways so they wont make a huge difference in HP to brag about.

If you don't think thats possible on a S4 engine, you need to learn a bit more on how air flow works and why freeing up the intake and exhaust help to get more HP. Also tuning the timing and AFR.

Now Im not going to insult you like you did me since I have already been warned twice. Don't ever insult me again without reading correctly!!!!!

Why? Im spreading Factual Information