Don't align your car without an alignment machine...
 

This is more of a post related to frustration and physical torture, not so technical.

The tow on my front passenger wheel has been off for a while and I came up with this great idea today... "Hey! I'll align my front toe!".

Don't do it.

Just don't.

I made all the marks on the floor, nice and level, measured everything, had it all down per what I have read and how to do it on your own. I even watched a youtube video! I am already an expert! I know how to use an alignement machine, as I had an entire class in college devoted to suspension, but alas, DON'T DO IT!

After breaking loose the lock nuts on the rack and busting my knuckles at the same time...twice....on both wheels, I aligned the baby up.

Woot! I have set the toe correctly...wait...what?

My car now seems floppy in the steering and unstable. I jack the front BACK up and check. Now I have gone somehow from 1/16th toe in to 1/8 toe out. Not sure how in the hell that happened. Readjust, and back on the road...

No dice.

Come back, jack it back up and measure. I now have no toe in nor toe out. To make a long story short, I spent 6 hours jacking with this and came to a point to where I was just "close enough". If I let go of my wheel I slowly pull to the passenger side, but slowly now instead of abruptly. It is nice to spend time with the car and feel some sense of accomplishment, but for god sake, I need to just spend $50 and get to front end aligned on the machine.

Its like that.

For stuff like Alignment, I rather just pay up and let the machine to do it. Its just not worth the headache

It is best to make these adjustments with the car sitting on a flat surface and the wheels not jacked up as when you lower the car, the weight will throw off your alignment (not to mention the difference in camber from both wheels). You also need to throw in a person into the drivers seat to compensate for the weight shift when you sit in the seat, which in turn changes your alignment slightly. (Yes on an alignment rack you can get away with raising the front due to the computer compensating the changes).

However, I am sure me or anyone else will tell you it is much quicker to do this with a alignment machine. Doing it the old fashion way is satisfying and once you have a method that works for you you can make it go quicker, however, for a once in a while thing it would be best to go the the machine.

If you plan on making changes every week then invest in some camber gauges and proper toe plates... (the amount of alignments you will save will pay itself off in the right tools), this is something I am planning on doing (already two trips to the alignment shop in one month).

there's a technique to it for sure. you also need flat ground, most concrete isn't flat.

we use toe plates on the race car, although it does go to a real alignment machine once a year

i spent a lot of time setting my FC up, the rear in particular is tricky, as it changes toe if you look at the thing funny

also after you change something, the car needs to roll back and forth, WITHOUT going up and down, toe and camber changes with the suspension movement, so it needs to be reset after you turn the wheel to move the tie rod. the alignment rack does this for you

I see where I screwed it up....I took pressure off of the front wheels. I didn't crank the front wheels totally off of the ground, but just enough to make it easier to turn the tie rods. Live and learn.

I can say though, that my garage floor is completely level. I checked it with a 4 foot level.

Anyway, I'll keep the advice in mind. I didn't use plates, I just marked the floor with chalk. :rolleyes:

Like I said, live and learn. For now though, I am going to nurse my right shoulder and the abrasions on both hands. :)

use string.... its super easy to do....just go from back to front and front to back. to align the front simply have one man at the back tire hold the string aginst the rear rim. you take string and go to front of car. pull string tight aginst the body of the car. asuming your door has not been dented by another car hitting it you should have a space between front tire and where your string in (about 1/8) it sounds kinda ghetto but i did this and then went into work and got my suspension mechanic to look at it. i was off by .02 so it was within spec. its lame but works better then marking the floor. if your smaller you do not need to lift the car as the tie rods are right out front.

String aligned to the body will not work. Bodywork isn't straight.

I do string alignments all the time. Pretty easy to do and doesn't require expensive equipment.

For all of this, your car needs to be on slip plates. I use cheap vinyl floor tiles, the smoother the better, with soap between them. Works great! Roll the car onto them.

For camber, I have a long 2x4 that I lay on the hood (or hatch) of the car. On each end is a piece of monofilament hanging down with a weight on the end. I align the 2x4 so the monofilament is hanging down the centerline of the wheel. Using a small level taped to a metal ruler calibrated to 32nds of an inch, measure from the wheel lip (NOT the tire) to the monofilament, making sure your ruler is level. Repeat this measurement at the top of the wheel and at the bottom of the wheel. The sine of the camber is equal to the difference between the upper and lower measurement divided by the top-to-bottom distance. My garage is very flat side to side - I've done this with the car facing in and facing out and measured camber that agrees within a tenth of a degree.

For toe, I either use strings or lasers. For toe with thrust angle, get two long 2x4s, longer than the width of the car by several inches. Set them in front of and in back of the car, raised up on something so the top is level with the centerline of the wheel. I use an old set of wheels for this. Using more monofilament, start with the front 2x4 and make two marks that are about 70" apart (this is a good start for a second gen). Repeat on the other 2x4 at the rear of the car. Stretch the monofilament from the front to the back, lining up the marks and secure it. I use tape. You now have two parallel strings but they are not centered on the car - i.e. you have a parallellogram.

To center them on the car, measure from the center of the wheel (in the rear, using the end of the axle is OK, in the front you can use the dust cap if it's not dented to shit or you can do what I do and use the wheel face immediately aft of the dust cap) to the string. Adjust the 2x4s side to side until the two front measurements are equal and the two rear measurements are equal. It is an iterative process. You have to do this at the front and the rear, double checking each end after you make a change. Now you have two parallel strings centered on the car - a rectangle.

Make measurements to the wheel and you will have a fairly accurate toe reading. Be sure to convert to a 26" measurement which is a standard alignment shop number (when you ask for 1/8" toe, they make a degree measurement and convert to a 26" triangle), or just use degrees instead of inches.

Once you're comfortable that your thrust angle is good, you can make more accurate overall toe changes using a laser level, a piece of aluminum bar stock and some spacers. But that's for another day...

I've used toe plates with decent success (gotta love advice from race shops)

I fabbed up a set for about $10 @ harbor freight. Just get 2 red handled straight edges ( in the pain section) and a bucket of bungie cords.

The straight edges already have a hole in one side, so I drilled another hold in the same place on the opposite end. Then just line it up flush w/ the sidewall of the tire and hook a bungie cord into one of the holes on the end. throw the cord around the inside of the tire and hook the opposite end in the other hole so the straight edge is held firmly against the tire. (It takes a couple tries to figure out the right length bungie cord). Do the same thing for the other side.

Now take a tape measure and measure the distance between the front tips of the straight edges [now affixed to your wheels/tires] and write it down. Measure the distance between the rear tips of the straight edges. It the number in the ......
Front > Rear = toe out
Rear > Front = toe in

Simply lengthen or shorten the tire rod to correct the inequity, striving to have the distance equal between the front and rear tips of the straight edges. It doesn't have to be perfect, I am usuaully and satisfied +/- .25"

I've done this on a couple friend's cars after doing front end work or suspension and some never ended up getting a real alignment (not that I recommend that). I did this about 6 months ago on my FC after replacing the P/S rack and it will drive straight 300+ yds on the interstate.

I plan to get a real alignment (interested to see how much I was off) as soon as I get some dtss eliminators installed.

Toe plates are great - but you can't use them to measure thrust angle. If you don't want your car crabbing down the road, you need to measure that.

i use my iphone for camber :)

at the track we have an actual camber gauge

Now THAT is a damn good idea, I'll have to try that next time.

I drove into the garage and made sure the floor was level, which it was. I then made a chalk line with a straight edge against each tire to measure. Once I had made my adjustment, I made another line with chalk and measured. It may have worked satisfactory if I had not jack the car up a tad to relieve pressure from the front end, which obviously screws it all up (I wasn't obviously thinking about that).

Your method sounds quite a bit more efficient than having to redraw line after line after line for every adjustment.



So to deviate a bit off topic, I am running now +.25 toe in the front. I think it is a tad bit excessive and have been wondering is +.125 would be better of even -.125? I drive mostly city and turn frequently. I don't do much straight line driving and besides, I don't think -.125 would make my steering twitchy.

Chime in, I may make another go of this on my next weekend off.

Touche' - that you cannot.

I haven't really done much performance driving, I was mostly concerned w/ staving off uneven tire wear which toe plates do rather well.

Is there an easy home method for addressing thrust angle?

Read my post above. It's extremely easy.

You don't have to keep jacking the car up if you have slip plates, which are easy to make yourself. And you don't even need to jack up the car to make the adjustments. The RX-7 is pretty easy to adjust on the ground - at least I've never had an issue and I've done six plus alignments in the past two months on my car.

+.25 what? Inches? Total or per side? 1/4" toe-in per side would be enormous. 1/4" toe in total is a lot too.

I mostly compete with my car but I do drive it on the street and I am running 1/8" total toe-out up front and 1/8" total toe-in in the rear.

I am taking a trip to Oklahoma in a week and a half and I figured it would help with tracking down the highway at 90mph easier. I can always go out there and dial it back out some. Its +.25 total

By the way, before I leave for work, any thought on toe in versus slight toe out?

Like I said before, it is a street only car, but I don't typically drive on the highway so I was thinking slight toe out might not be bad.

Toe out is used to make the car more lively on turn-in as well as to heat the contact patch for better initial grip. Very helpful for autocross.

I wouldn't run toe-out if you don't do anything other than street driving.

1/4" of total toe-in is a recipe for very rapid tire wear. If you have any camber, that will just make it worse. I'd fix it.

I'll pull it into the shop at work and dial it out. Suggest 1/8th total? 1/16th maybe? The camber in the front is stock, don't have camber adjusters.

here is where mine is at, drives great

front

0 toe. i find its fine on the freeway. if it was a highway only car, i might add a little toe in. i find stability didn't change much between stock and zero toe, but steering feel got WAY better.

-5 camber (strut top rotated, everything got loosened and retightened for max negative)

max castor

rear

i started at zero, which is great if you can be on the gas at turn in, but there are too many toyotas in the way, so you cant be on the gas, and it feels unstable. so i gave it a little toe in, and now its more stable turning without being on the gas

I assume there is a decimal point missing in that camber... -0.5?

My settings are autocross biased but I haven't had any problems on the street.

-3.5 Front camber
+8 caster
1/8" total toe-out
-2.1 rear camber
1/8" total toe-in

for a street car with no front camber zero toe in the front is a nice setting.

John

WRT to slip plates, heavy duty garbage bags folded over on themselves work surprisingly well and don't introduce another concern when trying to create a level setup platform.

lmao! yeah -.5....

lol, sounds more like it...

Had a friend w/ an S14, we went out "drifting" one night and he clipped a curb and busted his tire. Next day at work he put it on the alignment rack (we worked @ Sears) and he had -7.5* on the driver side :rofl:

let me know the next time you do an alignment, I'd to come over and learn how to do it. I'm much more of a learn by doing kind of guy :p:

This post is retarded, its like saying dont go to the bathroom without TP.

DUH

Funny, somewhat, but not constructive in the least.

To everyone else, thanks for the feedback. I think i am going to go with 1/16th total toe in this weekend when I am off, and the next time I have some spare cash laying around, I'll have them verify it on the alignment machine.

This thread has been very informative and hopefully the wealth of information contained in it will help others, like me, who get a weekend wild hair. :)

and when he said +-.25 he meant degrees. generally on a street car the best settings are as folows:
camber: 0 +-.5 really should be even on both sides
caster: usually above 5, it really depends on make and model
toe: 0 +-.25 for tire wear

but dude, -3.5 degrees camber up front? dear fucking god, but its autox, so thats somewhat understandable

as far as doing the alignment on the ground, i used to build and restore VW's, and theres pretty much no machine that is programed for a 65 bug LOL. the shop would do everything by hand, the good old stanley method, lots of measurements, but we would do 1/4" toe in. always right on, never any weird tire wear

there is a general rule about rwd vs fwd vs awd as far as the general toe settings, i cant remember for the life of me what they are, and im ASE cert'd for it. LOL

Lloyd

When I said +.25 I meant inches, not degrees, to clear that up. So 1/4 inch total.

This weekend I am going to set it at 1/16 or even 1/32 of an inch toe in. I'll do 1/16 first then try 1/32 and see how it is. I have rather pricey tires so i don't want to wear them out earlier than necessary.

um the simple answer is yes, the complex answer, especially if you go racing is no.

i think if you had no book, and had to setup a car something like 1/16th of toe in would be fine on the street. racing we like to start @zero.

the complex answer, and this is more for racing, is that it depends on the tires, and then the suspension geometry.

the best example is the FC, actually. the DTSS is setup to be optimal with a bridgestone RE71, if you put pirelli p7's on there, like mazda did with the efini, then the toe control may no longer be optimal. those cars actually had a different DTSS bushing.

or the other example is the E46 bmw race car we just picked up, its got -4 camber in the front and wears the outside edges still....

You bring the beer again and I'll work around your schedule.

You'll never see me claim that this is an optimal street setup. But I have two other cars and a motorcycle and the RX-7 doesn't see THAT much street time.

The problem (the problem? One of the many problems) of the FC chassis is that when you lower it at all the front roll center goes subterranean. The front gains positive camber as the car rolls. So the static setup has to maintain the contact patch shape when cornering. This is done by running a lot of static camber and a high front roll stiffness.

On my Z06 I only had to run about -2.2 front camber and that car had a great camber curve with its upper and lower A-arm suspension.

I'm still chasing the best setup for our local venue, so this probably won't be where I end up. I am still learning a lot.

last time we ran an FC race car, we set it up with the butt dyno, so to speak. we've got 3 (!) in the pipeline and it'll be fun to set em up with actual instrumentation, not to mention the drivers are way better too.

if you allow me to speculate, the front is just a matter of getting the best compromise between ride height, camber etc etc

the rear is the big puzzle...

We have datalogging (DL1) so we use that as a tuning tool to some degree. The clock is the most important tuning tool for us anyway.

The rear of the FC actually works pretty well if it isn't set up to be way too stiff. If you ditched the DTSS there isn't much toe gain through bump so your static toe setting becomes more of a tuning tool.

Our general philosophy has been making changes to the front to get the nose to bite and not skate mid-corner and adjusting the rear to rotate off throttle without being too loose in transitions. But again this is for autocross. I'm sure I'd pursue a completely different setup for a racetrack.

I'm finding that the rear ride height is a very useful tuning tool. I'm running no rake right now, but if I got to a venue where the rear was too planted I could easily raise it, removing some negative camber and moving the Cg forward, which makes the car a bit more lively.

Speaking of which, I have been toying with the idea of lowering the front a bit, maybe an inch to give the car some rake. Any benefits on a street driven car. Should improve (lower) the drag coefficient a tad right?

If you're going to lower the car, lower both ends. You don't want the handling that will come with rake on an FC.

With that said, I'll just lower the front and back an inch. Why is rake so horrible on the FC though?

seems to be some pretty good info here.
i have just been trained on street cars, align them for the best ride and least amount of tire wear. i would love to get into high performance suspension, but i have nothing around me to get into that.
thanks for the clarification about the toe. again, street is what i know

Lloyd

It's not just the FC, but lowering just the front moves the Cg forward, lowers the front roll center and will make the car twitchy and prone to snap oversteer.

Indeed. Keep the rake in the garden.

nothing wrong with that at all! the thing i notice the most about the zero toe is the steering response is amazing, its razor sharp.

1 turn both sides = .24"
 

For those (like me) that like toe-out for autocross, but also drive on the street, you can make a temporary adjustment to the toe yourself.

From '89 FSM, page R-7:
"b) One turn of the tie-rod (both sides) changes the toe-in by about 6mm (0.24 in)."


So, for example, if your alignment is 1/8" toe-out, you can make one full turn in to each side, to give you 1/8" toe-in.

Just think carefully about which way to turn, and remember what you did, so you don't get lost...

I read where a guy suggested just changing one side, so you remember to change it back because the wheel won't be centered.

Another thing to keep in mind when figuring how much toe you want, is that on the highway: rear wheel drive cars with rubber bushings have a rearward force on the front wheels that will reduce the toe-in (or increase toe-out). This will be less with polyurethane bushings, and about nil with delrin.

you need to really know what you're doing when you align your car without a modern machine.