Wont turn over
06-30-09, 04:15 PM
#1
SUPRAMAN
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Wont turn over
I've been trying to get my dads 90 vert started for him over the last couple of weekends. The vehicle will not turn over. I replaced the fuel pump and filter and can hear it humming when switched to on. The car just keeps trying to turn over but never will. It has fresh gas. I was thinking possibly a clogged injector or maybe a bad stock fpr ( do these go bad?? ). I had him spray carb cleaner into the tb while trying to start and it will turn over and rev up while I give it gas but the second he stops spraying the carb cleaner it dies. Any thoughts or suggestions?
06-30-09, 06:23 PM
#3
Rotary Freak
All the ducting b/t the afm/air filter and the throttle body have to be connected up for the engine to keep running. Also make sure the electrical plug on the afm is connected up.
*********I had him spray carb cleaner into the tb while trying to start and it will turn over and rev up while I give it gas but the second he stops spraying the carb cleaner **********
The above sentence makes one thing you took the ducting off the throttle body and sprayed fluid directly into the throttle body, leaving all the ducting to the afm open/off.
Or if that isn't the case, jumper the yellow two socket fuel pump check connector with a piece of wire. Then go to the fuel line that connects the fuel filter to the engines hard line. Remove the rubber line and put it in a bottle. Then with the check connector jumpered, turn the key to ON and make sure fuel is pouring out the fuel line into the bottle.
*********I had him spray carb cleaner into the tb while trying to start and it will turn over and rev up while I give it gas but the second he stops spraying the carb cleaner **********
The above sentence makes one thing you took the ducting off the throttle body and sprayed fluid directly into the throttle body, leaving all the ducting to the afm open/off.
Or if that isn't the case, jumper the yellow two socket fuel pump check connector with a piece of wire. Then go to the fuel line that connects the fuel filter to the engines hard line. Remove the rubber line and put it in a bottle. Then with the check connector jumpered, turn the key to ON and make sure fuel is pouring out the fuel line into the bottle.
06-30-09, 08:41 PM
#4
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All the ducting b/t the afm/air filter and the throttle body have to be connected up for the engine to keep running. Also make sure the electrical plug on the afm is connected up.
*********I had him spray carb cleaner into the tb while trying to start and it will turn over and rev up while I give it gas but the second he stops spraying the carb cleaner **********
The above sentence makes one thing you took the ducting off the throttle body and sprayed fluid directly into the throttle body, leaving all the ducting to the afm open/off.
Or if that isn't the case, jumper the yellow two socket fuel pump check connector with a piece of wire. Then go to the fuel line that connects the fuel filter to the engines hard line. Remove the rubber line and put it in a bottle. Then with the check connector jumpered, turn the key to ON and make sure fuel is pouring out the fuel line into the bottle.
*********I had him spray carb cleaner into the tb while trying to start and it will turn over and rev up while I give it gas but the second he stops spraying the carb cleaner **********
The above sentence makes one thing you took the ducting off the throttle body and sprayed fluid directly into the throttle body, leaving all the ducting to the afm open/off.
Or if that isn't the case, jumper the yellow two socket fuel pump check connector with a piece of wire. Then go to the fuel line that connects the fuel filter to the engines hard line. Remove the rubber line and put it in a bottle. Then with the check connector jumpered, turn the key to ON and make sure fuel is pouring out the fuel line into the bottle.
07-01-09, 09:13 AM
#6
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Anyone else got any other ideas or comments about the intake being disconected would that not being connected cause it to die because it isn't pulling air through the maf? It wouldn't start anyway with it connected I've always been told that if it will start while spraying carb cleaner into the tb you have a fuel issue. I was thinking about buying a cheap can of the injector cleaner as well and putting that in the tank I figure it couldn't hurt. Do you have to remove all the plugs to see if fuel is coming out or would removing just one work?
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07-02-09, 11:10 AM
#8
Rotary Freak
The engine WILL NOT keep running with the ducting removed.
I'd reconnect the ducting and make sure the elect plug is on the afm, then spray STARTER FLUID into the air filter for two seconds on the outside (outside as in time wise). Engine should start like it has been starting for you previously. Never use starter fluid to keep an engine running. It will cause KNOCK which can hurt the apex seals.
I've started RX engines with starter fluid sprayed into the air filter or snorkel for less than two seconds and the engines start each time. No need to spray directly into the throttle body. Using the starter fluid like you did does prove more or less that it's a fuel problem, but could be another problem.
Although if this is a non turbo car, there should be an approx one inch dia hose connected to the large duct that attaches to the throttle body. PUll that hose off and spray for less than two seconds and then put the hose back on prior to starting the engine.
And or jumper the yellow fuel pump check connector and key to ON only. Listen for fuel passing thru the rails and returning to the fuel tank. You should be able to hear it splashing in the fuel tank as it returns to the tank. The flow should be continuous. That's how it works. Pumps all the time if the yellow jumper is jumpered and key is ON. Takes less than three minutes to check that out.
The EGI fuse is good because it starts. The ENGINE fuse is good IF you actually hear the pump pumping. The injectors work off the same EGI fuse so they should be spraying. The CAS plug is on the CAS because the car starts. Main RElay works because the car started.
RX use an internal fuel map inside the ECU for starting the engine. Once 500 rpm has been achieved, the fuel delivery is decided by the AFM and not the internal fuel map of the ECU.
I'd reconnect the ducting and make sure the elect plug is on the afm, then spray STARTER FLUID into the air filter for two seconds on the outside (outside as in time wise). Engine should start like it has been starting for you previously. Never use starter fluid to keep an engine running. It will cause KNOCK which can hurt the apex seals.
I've started RX engines with starter fluid sprayed into the air filter or snorkel for less than two seconds and the engines start each time. No need to spray directly into the throttle body. Using the starter fluid like you did does prove more or less that it's a fuel problem, but could be another problem.
Although if this is a non turbo car, there should be an approx one inch dia hose connected to the large duct that attaches to the throttle body. PUll that hose off and spray for less than two seconds and then put the hose back on prior to starting the engine.
And or jumper the yellow fuel pump check connector and key to ON only. Listen for fuel passing thru the rails and returning to the fuel tank. You should be able to hear it splashing in the fuel tank as it returns to the tank. The flow should be continuous. That's how it works. Pumps all the time if the yellow jumper is jumpered and key is ON. Takes less than three minutes to check that out.
The EGI fuse is good because it starts. The ENGINE fuse is good IF you actually hear the pump pumping. The injectors work off the same EGI fuse so they should be spraying. The CAS plug is on the CAS because the car starts. Main RElay works because the car started.
RX use an internal fuel map inside the ECU for starting the engine. Once 500 rpm has been achieved, the fuel delivery is decided by the AFM and not the internal fuel map of the ECU.
07-02-09, 02:58 PM
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The engine WILL NOT keep running with the ducting removed.
I'd reconnect the ducting and make sure the elect plug is on the afm, then spray STARTER FLUID into the air filter for two seconds on the outside (outside as in time wise). Engine should start like it has been starting for you previously. Never use starter fluid to keep an engine running. It will cause KNOCK which can hurt the apex seals.
I've started RX engines with starter fluid sprayed into the air filter or snorkel for less than two seconds and the engines start each time. No need to spray directly into the throttle body. Using the starter fluid like you did does prove more or less that it's a fuel problem, but could be another problem.
Although if this is a non turbo car, there should be an approx one inch dia hose connected to the large duct that attaches to the throttle body. PUll that hose off and spray for less than two seconds and then put the hose back on prior to starting the engine.
And or jumper the yellow fuel pump check connector and key to ON only. Listen for fuel passing thru the rails and returning to the fuel tank. You should be able to hear it splashing in the fuel tank as it returns to the tank. The flow should be continuous. That's how it works. Pumps all the time if the yellow jumper is jumpered and key is ON. Takes less than three minutes to check that out.
The EGI fuse is good because it starts. The ENGINE fuse is good IF you actually hear the pump pumping. The injectors work off the same EGI fuse so they should be spraying. The CAS plug is on the CAS because the car starts. Main RElay works because the car started.
RX use an internal fuel map inside the ECU for starting the engine. Once 500 rpm has been achieved, the fuel delivery is decided by the AFM and not the internal fuel map of the ECU.
I'd reconnect the ducting and make sure the elect plug is on the afm, then spray STARTER FLUID into the air filter for two seconds on the outside (outside as in time wise). Engine should start like it has been starting for you previously. Never use starter fluid to keep an engine running. It will cause KNOCK which can hurt the apex seals.
I've started RX engines with starter fluid sprayed into the air filter or snorkel for less than two seconds and the engines start each time. No need to spray directly into the throttle body. Using the starter fluid like you did does prove more or less that it's a fuel problem, but could be another problem.
Although if this is a non turbo car, there should be an approx one inch dia hose connected to the large duct that attaches to the throttle body. PUll that hose off and spray for less than two seconds and then put the hose back on prior to starting the engine.
And or jumper the yellow fuel pump check connector and key to ON only. Listen for fuel passing thru the rails and returning to the fuel tank. You should be able to hear it splashing in the fuel tank as it returns to the tank. The flow should be continuous. That's how it works. Pumps all the time if the yellow jumper is jumpered and key is ON. Takes less than three minutes to check that out.
The EGI fuse is good because it starts. The ENGINE fuse is good IF you actually hear the pump pumping. The injectors work off the same EGI fuse so they should be spraying. The CAS plug is on the CAS because the car starts. Main RElay works because the car started.
RX use an internal fuel map inside the ECU for starting the engine. Once 500 rpm has been achieved, the fuel delivery is decided by the AFM and not the internal fuel map of the ECU.
07-02-09, 03:10 PM
#10
Rotary Freak
The fuses are good since the car started with fluid. The only chance they are not good, is if someone rerouted the power to the fuel pump. Like added a fuel cut switch or? Ask around and make sure nobody added a fuel cut switch.
Just jumper the yellow two socket connector and put the key to ON and listen to the puimp. And or pull the rubber line that runs from the fuel filter to the hard line on the engine. Pull it off the hard line on the engine and put the rubber line in a soft drink bottle. Then jumper the yellow fuel pump check connector and put the key to ON for about two seconds. Fuel should fill up the bottle in that amount of time. Slim fire hazard there. Be careful.
Electrical plug must be installed on the afm.
What Farbeno said could be done. I just added other things to check out.
Just jumper the yellow two socket connector and put the key to ON and listen to the puimp. And or pull the rubber line that runs from the fuel filter to the hard line on the engine. Pull it off the hard line on the engine and put the rubber line in a soft drink bottle. Then jumper the yellow fuel pump check connector and put the key to ON for about two seconds. Fuel should fill up the bottle in that amount of time. Slim fire hazard there. Be careful.
Electrical plug must be installed on the afm.
What Farbeno said could be done. I just added other things to check out.
07-05-09, 08:29 PM
#11
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The fuses are good since the car started with fluid. The only chance they are not good, is if someone rerouted the power to the fuel pump. Like added a fuel cut switch or? Ask around and make sure nobody added a fuel cut switch.
Just jumper the yellow two socket connector and put the key to ON and listen to the puimp. And or pull the rubber line that runs from the fuel filter to the hard line on the engine. Pull it off the hard line on the engine and put the rubber line in a soft drink bottle. Then jumper the yellow fuel pump check connector and put the key to ON for about two seconds. Fuel should fill up the bottle in that amount of time. Slim fire hazard there. Be careful.
Electrical plug must be installed on the afm.
What Farbeno said could be done. I just added other things to check out.
Just jumper the yellow two socket connector and put the key to ON and listen to the puimp. And or pull the rubber line that runs from the fuel filter to the hard line on the engine. Pull it off the hard line on the engine and put the rubber line in a soft drink bottle. Then jumper the yellow fuel pump check connector and put the key to ON for about two seconds. Fuel should fill up the bottle in that amount of time. Slim fire hazard there. Be careful.
Electrical plug must be installed on the afm.
What Farbeno said could be done. I just added other things to check out.
07-05-09, 09:29 PM
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Ok..you want to check for Fuel?
Pull the rubber line off (Coming from the fuel filter)Pull it off At the engine..Get someone to Turn the Key.(IT WILL SPRAY FUEL AT 45 PSI,so be Careful).If it doesn't.,then you have a bad fuel pump,fuel pump relay or bad Fuel Pump fuse.
Now.The AFM needs to Be connected in order for the engine to RUN.if it is Disconnected it will start and Die.(over and over)
Check the Plugs,ARE They WET?after cranking..YOU GOT FUEL.
Change the Plugs out,and Put some oil in the housings,and Crank about two Seconds.Put Plugs in..Start the car without Hitting the Pedal.
Have you even Checked the compression on this engine?.(piston tester..see www.rotaryresurrection.com for a Tech Info on using a tester and Flooded engine)
anyways,that is all I can Give ya for advice.Good Luck.STYX.
Pull the rubber line off (Coming from the fuel filter)Pull it off At the engine..Get someone to Turn the Key.(IT WILL SPRAY FUEL AT 45 PSI,so be Careful).If it doesn't.,then you have a bad fuel pump,fuel pump relay or bad Fuel Pump fuse.
Now.The AFM needs to Be connected in order for the engine to RUN.if it is Disconnected it will start and Die.(over and over)
Check the Plugs,ARE They WET?after cranking..YOU GOT FUEL.
Change the Plugs out,and Put some oil in the housings,and Crank about two Seconds.Put Plugs in..Start the car without Hitting the Pedal.
Have you even Checked the compression on this engine?.(piston tester..see www.rotaryresurrection.com for a Tech Info on using a tester and Flooded engine)
anyways,that is all I can Give ya for advice.Good Luck.STYX.
07-05-09, 10:21 PM
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maybe his plugs are fouled out to where they dont work. my car would crank and crank and crank ran the battery down 3 times trying to figure it out. changed plugs fired right up. but i guess since it will run with starting fluid that wouldnt be the case huh. i guess what do i know right. maybe there is enough spark to run the highly flammable starting fluid just not enough to light all that fuel.
07-05-09, 10:26 PM
#15
Rotary Freak
A outside thought is that if the water thermo sensor plug is off the sensor on the back of the water pump Housing, then that would make for a difficult cold start. The connector is two wires and the sensors jack is colored green.
07-06-09, 01:39 PM
#16
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Ok..you want to check for Fuel?
Pull the rubber line off (Coming from the fuel filter)Pull it off At the engine..Get someone to Turn the Key.(IT WILL SPRAY FUEL AT 45 PSI,so be Careful).If it doesn't.,then you have a bad fuel pump,fuel pump relay or bad Fuel Pump fuse.
Now.The AFM needs to Be connected in order for the engine to RUN.if it is Disconnected it will start and Die.(over and over)
Check the Plugs,ARE They WET?after cranking..YOU GOT FUEL.
Change the Plugs out,and Put some oil in the housings,and Crank about two Seconds.Put Plugs in..Start the car without Hitting the Pedal.
Have you even Checked the compression on this engine?.(piston tester..see www.rotaryresurrection.com for a Tech Info on using a tester and Flooded engine)
anyways,that is all I can Give ya for advice.Good Luck.STYX.
Pull the rubber line off (Coming from the fuel filter)Pull it off At the engine..Get someone to Turn the Key.(IT WILL SPRAY FUEL AT 45 PSI,so be Careful).If it doesn't.,then you have a bad fuel pump,fuel pump relay or bad Fuel Pump fuse.
Now.The AFM needs to Be connected in order for the engine to RUN.if it is Disconnected it will start and Die.(over and over)
Check the Plugs,ARE They WET?after cranking..YOU GOT FUEL.
Change the Plugs out,and Put some oil in the housings,and Crank about two Seconds.Put Plugs in..Start the car without Hitting the Pedal.
Have you even Checked the compression on this engine?.(piston tester..see www.rotaryresurrection.com for a Tech Info on using a tester and Flooded engine)
anyways,that is all I can Give ya for advice.Good Luck.STYX.
maybe his plugs are fouled out to where they dont work. my car would crank and crank and crank ran the battery down 3 times trying to figure it out. changed plugs fired right up. but i guess since it will run with starting fluid that wouldnt be the case huh. i guess what do i know right. maybe there is enough spark to run the highly flammable starting fluid just not enough to light all that fuel.
07-06-09, 07:56 PM
#17
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i would really try putting some oil in the spark plug holes to see if it will fire then like misterstyx69 said. i would deff check compression like he said. auto zone has the compression tester to do it.
07-23-09, 08:59 AM
#18
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Ok so I pulled the gas line and tried to crank and nothing is coming out. Just a very small amount came through. So that means fuel isn't getting from the pump to the filter in the engine bay. Also I can't hear the fuel pump whining anymore. It was the other day and all the connections are good. Is it possible to "burn up" the fuel pump trying to crank it over and over. Also the egi fuse is good. How do you test power to the pump? Should I try putting another pump in. This would be 3rd one.
07-23-09, 11:02 AM
#19
Rotary Freak
You jumper the yellow, two socket fuel pump check connector located near the pressure sensor/afm area.
You put the key to ON.
You listen for the pump passing fuel continuously thru the fuel rails and back to the tank.
If the pump does not run then, then make sure the ENGINE fuse is good.
If the ENGINE fuse is good, then you get your digital meter out and pull the elect plug off the fuel pumps pigtail. Then with the yellow connector jumpered and key to ON with a good ENGINE fuse, you probe the fuel pump connector plug coming from the rear harness and see if there's batt pwr on the large Blue wire...or not.
An engine with the water thermo sensor disconnected from the back of the water pump housing will be very difficult to start and kept running.
The jpg attached (of someone elses car and downloaded from this forum) has the yellow, two socket, fuel pump check connector circled.
Fuel pumps should run if all the fuses are good and: the engine is actually running which causes the Circuit Opening Relay to power the pump via a signal from the ECU/AFM...............if the key is ON and the yellow two socket fuel pump check connector is jumpered.................If the key is HELD (did I mention HELD?) to the START positon which causes the Circuit Opening Relay to pull in and power the pump as long as the key is HELD to START.
The fuel pump should not run if the key is merely put to ON, engine OFF, and no other action taken. Did I say NOT RUN? Meant to.
You put the key to ON.
You listen for the pump passing fuel continuously thru the fuel rails and back to the tank.
If the pump does not run then, then make sure the ENGINE fuse is good.
If the ENGINE fuse is good, then you get your digital meter out and pull the elect plug off the fuel pumps pigtail. Then with the yellow connector jumpered and key to ON with a good ENGINE fuse, you probe the fuel pump connector plug coming from the rear harness and see if there's batt pwr on the large Blue wire...or not.
An engine with the water thermo sensor disconnected from the back of the water pump housing will be very difficult to start and kept running.
The jpg attached (of someone elses car and downloaded from this forum) has the yellow, two socket, fuel pump check connector circled.
Fuel pumps should run if all the fuses are good and: the engine is actually running which causes the Circuit Opening Relay to power the pump via a signal from the ECU/AFM...............if the key is ON and the yellow two socket fuel pump check connector is jumpered.................If the key is HELD (did I mention HELD?) to the START positon which causes the Circuit Opening Relay to pull in and power the pump as long as the key is HELD to START.
The fuel pump should not run if the key is merely put to ON, engine OFF, and no other action taken. Did I say NOT RUN? Meant to.
07-25-09, 12:37 PM
#23
You are complaining about the quality of the 'free help' you are getting? 
Yeah, you are right. In the good old days this forum would have ripped your complaining, ungrateful head off and crapped down your neck figuratively of course. That's why the other 7 boards called this the 'Evil Forum'. Those were the "SEARCH noob!" days.
The place is a little more civilized, but most of the old guard are either gone (Rotary Resurrection/Reted etc) or dead-(rip Icemark and Guitarjunkie28)
Ah yes-the Good Old Days!
Yeah, you are right. In the good old days this forum would have ripped your complaining, ungrateful head off and crapped down your neck figuratively of course. That's why the other 7 boards called this the 'Evil Forum'. Those were the "SEARCH noob!" days.
The place is a little more civilized, but most of the old guard are either gone (Rotary Resurrection/Reted etc) or dead-(rip Icemark and Guitarjunkie28)
Ah yes-the Good Old Days!
07-25-09, 01:12 PM
#25
SUPRAMAN
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So there are 4 wires running into the plug by the fuel pump one is blue and green is that the one you are talking about. It isn't any bigger than any of the other wires. Also for the fuel filter inside the engine bay. The shop manual I have says that the "out" written on the fuel pump needs to face the engine. Is this a big deal because it wouldn't go back into the holder that way....