13b building questions
 

after hours of going throught the search engine i see the whole turbo n/a thing is such a huge debate..anyway...im thinkin about picking up a cheap n/a and doing the turbo thing as i can get quite a few parts for cheap....my question is. if building a 13b, what kind of specs would i have to build it to to hold approx 20psi of boost. I know it probably wont be cheap but i just want a straight answer. Thanks.

About $10,000 and running on pure 120-octane race gas all the time...


-Ted

:( how informative

What kinda engine block are you going to start out with?
If it's an NA engine block (which I assumed), you're talking about a heap of money.
If it's a turbo block, just rebuild it and cross your fingers you don't detonate.

You wanna drop some details so we can give you a more detailed answer?


-Ted

well if i buy a car i will be pulling the motor out either way. so im basically asking what the best foundation for the motor. Im assuming to start w/ a turbo block. Just wondering what goes along with it. Thanks...

Yes, if you go with a turbo block, that makes it easier...sorta...
You'll end up breaking all the non-turbo drivetrain components - transmission, driveshaft, rear diff, rear axles...
New from Mazda, that's several thousand dollars!



-Ted

If your 20psi motor holds together (Turbo block or not), it will turn the NA drivetrain into shrapnel. You'll need to upgrade all of the NA parts to Turbo-spec to be even close to reliable. But then after spending all your money buying Turbo parts and spending all your time fitting Turbo parts, it would have been quicker, cheaper and easier to start off with a Turbo model. That's why not many people around here recommend it. No one wants to discourage you from building a quick 7, just advise you on a better way to do it. It's just plain ol' common sense to start with the best base possible when building a fast project car. :)

alright, lets try this again....im not asking about drivetrain issures, im not looking to hear "itll cost a heap of money" because i already know that...........

whats needed to build a N/A block to hold 20+ psi

whats needed to build a turbo block to hold 20+ psi

mainly id like to know whats needed for the N/A block because there is alot more of them around.

Just straight answers please. :(

That's your problem - this assumption is wrong.


-Ted

RX7Forum bylaw 27:14b: Thou shall not doubt ReTed. Ever.:D

HAHAHHAAHHAA


Jonvolk,

You're being badgered because you're asking a question that has been covered, in various forms, forever and a day. If you HAD searched, you'd realize just how naive your question is. Go read about the work Aaron is having to do to get a turbo mounted in his car. That's just to get what, 7psi max? I think his project is a technical marvel, and I applaud his efforts into doing so, but the return on his investment just isn't going to be there, IMHO.

NA blocks are cheap, sure, but they're also high compression. 20 PSI will blow that thing up in a heartbeat. If you had read 20 of those search results, you'd already know that. 10 even. Besides, I can get a Jspec motor for 700 bucks, it's a gamble, but then any NA block is going to be a gamble.

You've already blown off the drivetrain warning, obviously you have a plan to keep the car running with 20psi of boost, I'd love to hear it. Just how ARE you planning on keeping an NA tranny alive with that much power?

This isn't high school debate class, you don't get to tell people what you want for a response, if they think you're being a jackass. Shut your mouth, stop trying to act all big and tough, and go back and read those search results you say you did already.

Ted has already forgotten more about T2s than you will ever know. He's your best resource for getting help, but acting like a 10 year old kid isn't the way to get it.

PaulC

Uh, I dunno about that - I've been wrong before, and people have caught me. :)

This guy just doesn't believe my $10,000 figure and race gas use...
Well, whatever...



-Ted

Aw, give the new "kid" a break. He probably just knows low VE piston engines where 20psi boost is normal for any kind of power.
:p:
jon, 20 psi on a rotary w/ a turbo still in its efficiency range is like 600hp, for real! If you tell us a HP and reliability goal it will be easier for us to advise. Look at other members set-ups and their HP; they always post- we like to brag! Ian

Boost doesn’t make power, airflow does. If you wound the stock turbo up to 20psi you might get 300hp (briefly!), but a bigger, better turbo could make 400hp on only 15psi boost.
Instead of setting yourself an irrelevant boost goal, set yourself a realistic power goal, preferably one within your budget. Then ask what hardware is required to achieve that goal. Or search.

yes, im well aware that 20 psi is in the 600hp range. Thats why im asking. Itll probably be a large t4 turbo.


CAN ANYONE JUST TELL ME WHATS NEEEDED TO BUILD THE MOTOR BESIDES THE OBVIOUS MONEY!

look, im not blowing off the drivetriain warning or anything. its just common sense that the driveline has to be built up at the same time....therefore i didnt ask about the driveline b/c ive already found plenty of information about it.

The reason you're not getting the answers you want is because the questions you're asking don't sound like they're from someone who understands or realises the cost and difficulty involved in building a 600hp car. For example, "a large TO4" won't do it. That's T66/T72 territory. Does your budget also allow for the drivetrain/suspension/brakes/wheels/tyres/etc required to make a 600hp car safe and legal? Ted said $10K for the engine, but you should at least double that to do the whole car. - you're crazy to start with a FC NA block; a FD/Cosmo 13B would be much better
- strengthened internals and other mods for the above (stationary gears/apex seals/modified oilways/etc)
- huge turbo with external wastegate
- large FMIC
- a fuel system (injectors/pump/lines/filters) capable of delivering 4500cc/min
- standalone engine management system
- upgraded ignition system

These are just a few things off the top of my head, the actual list will be much longer.
If you are serious about this, you should be talking to some competent rotary builders who've built this sort of engine before.

You want the break down?

$2,000 in internal engine parts that will cover a total rebuild of the engine, this includes all the "high performance" goodies
$1,000 fuel system, which includes fuel pump, FPR, and SS AN lines to support the power goal
$2,000 front mount intercooler and piping
$1,500 stand-alone EMS
$500 clutch system
$1,500 turbo
$1,000 turbo exhaust manifold and exhaust piping
$500 3" min exhaust system

That's the magical $10,000 mark with NO LABOR INVOLVED.&nbsp I'd slap on $5,000 on top of that just for labor.&nbsp The list doesn't include the following highly recommended upgrades...

All Turbo II drivetrain...
$1,000 welded-in roll cage, min 8-point
$1,000 Cusco LSD
Chrome-moly rear axles from RX7.COM
$800 carbon fiber driveshaft
$3,000 worth of rims and tires to put the power to the ground
$5,000 worth of suspension to keep the car from ending up in the guardrail
A $1M life insurance policy for your kids

YOU'RE IN WAY OVER YOUR HEAD...



-Ted

first of all, dont make assumptions about people you dont know. i know quite a few people and can get the above listed parts a much cheaper prices and i do all my own work.

$3000 on wheels and tires huh? Gee the full set of new Weld racing wheels and 12" slicks/skinnys up front for the 68 camaro i used to have only ran me 900 NEW, Ill most likely buy used.

T-66 turbo off my buddys supra for $800,

the exhuast manifold i will make myself ( i made the manifold for the t3/t4 on the only car i have now which is a 01 MR2 spyder)

3" exhuast piping? My buddy can get me all the mandrel bends I want at wholesale and ill weld em together.

Intercooler can be had for less than 500 (30"x18"x4" core)

Yes the 1500 for engine management and the clutch at wholesale is more like 400.

Now what I want to know is....what is this magical internal motor work that you speak of. Im definately going to use a turbo block. Other than porting and 3mm apex seals whats involved?

So far it's a lot of talk, lets see you build it then...

Typical internal engine mods are...
FD corner seal springs
Hardened stationary gears
Upgrade stationary gear bearings
Upgrade rotor bearings
Upgrade oil pressure regulator

3mm apex seals are not necessary - these are for those people who want a very small safety margin against damage from detonation.&nbsp If you know what you're doing, they are not necessary.

What engine management system are you talking about for $400 wholesale?&nbsp I don't think you live in Australia, so I doubt you can get anything cheap unless we're talking Microtech here?&nbsp You do realize that an Accel DFI or Eldebrock Speed-Pro does NOT work on these engines, right?&nbsp A Haltech E6K (very popular) still wholesales for $1,200 in the U.S....



-Ted

ahhh, thank you. thats all i wanted to know.

i was talking 400 for clutch not engine management. I was agreeing with the 1500 :)