20b Ecu for Fd???
 

Yea does anyone know what kind of ecu should i be using for a 20b in a fd?? Plus where can I get the Ecu?

lemme guess....you have a stock FD and you want to to a 20B conversion, and think its a $2000-$3000 conversion...right??

BTW, you will need something along the lines of a MoTec to get the most out the 20B.

My friend owns a autoshop so money isn't a problem but i need parts for the motor but i can't seem to find a ecu for it.

you can run a factory 20b ecu if you get ALL of the stock electrics. or you can use a haltech, motec, autronic, microtech, marelli, maybe even the new aem. there is no plug and play ecu/wiring harness for the car.

mike

sorry if this sounds blunt, but if money isn't a problem, ditch your friend, his shop, and any curiousity of what parts you need for the 20b, and head over to http://www.pettitracing.com with $40k

i can't ditch my friend because he is getting me the parts and motor. instead of spending 40k i only spent 15k all i need is the ecu/wiring. thanks for the ecu info but i just order a haltech(e6k) but i also heard that i need a ig5 for it too is that true?

Only if you want to run the split.

I would take into account who is going to do the tuning. The tuner should be comfortable and familiar with the ECU you have chosen.

he knows how to do the tuning/installtion its just i have to find what kind of ecu/wiring i want, plus he is pretty busy and i can't bug him every day about my stuff when he has to handle the customers car first. im not saying that he is the perfect guy for the job but when your friend has a autoshop and its right next to your house its pretty convienant. Plus im just asking about the IG5 on what it does.

hmmmm
 

You spent 15K...is that the total cost including the car? That sounds off.

Now, if you spent 15K the 20b + parts alone, you're probably on the right track.

The 40K you'd spend at Pettit does not include the price of the car. that's what they charge for the swap alone.

15k for the motor and the parts car not counted

$3000 20B
$2000 clutch
$2000 EMS
$1000 rad + cooling
$1500 IC
$2000 Turbo + manifold (unless you're going stock twins?)
$1000 Exhaust
$100 IC piping
$200 materials for mounting
$500 front anti-sway bar
$1000 Recalibrate suspension
$500 Ignition system
$1000 Fuel System
$3000 Rims and Tires
$1000 LSD
$400 Mazdspeed PPF

That's already broken $20k...
This factors ZERO into labor costs...you've got a pretty GOOD friend helping you...


-Ted

yea because all the parts we are getting are directly from japan..and its basicly pretty cheap over there

sounds like a plan
 

Seems you know what you're doing then. Let us know what you decided to do.

No it's not.
You're talking about an OS Giken twin-plate for an FD that retails over $2,000, cause this bitch converts the stock FD pull-type to a push-type clutch.

About the only other thing is the Mazdaspeed PPF unit.

Everything else does not have to come from Japan, but if it did, you're talking an extra 20% premium at LEAST.&nbsp That makes it a $25,000+ affair.

I call your bluff...I think this whole thread is a bunch of bullshit.&nbsp Care to offer proof of this so-called project?



-Ted

if you can get that done for 15k then ur friend would be a pretty rich and busy guy right now cuz there will be so many rx7 ready to put a 20b in there. and if i wasnt to sell my cars i would be the first there. correct me if im wrong.

The IG5 will allow you to control the split timing.

If your mechanic/friend knows how to tune a rotary then he probably has a good feel about which ECU to use (based upon what he is comfortable with and has worked with before). Like I said before...make sense?

I am sure that all of us would like to see some pics Jer. How about it?

I am at the early stages of figuring out the best way to convert an FD. How did you mount the engine?

To me the cheapest/easiest way to mount a 20b would be to use pettit's subframe/spindles. Or somehow make a subframe yourself. The pushing the motor back, recessing the firewall, and chopping down the PPF and driveshaft is alot of work, and you still end up with the shifter not in the stock position.

I am with RETed on this one, stuff in japan isn't that cheap at all, and you still have to pay shipping which most of the time makes it cheaper to buy parts out of the u.s.

I say if you guys know what you are doing then you can probably get it done for about 15k-20k with no overhead or labor costs. Not saying it will be perfect, but it'll run. One thing RETed didn't factor in is rebuild and porting of the engine. Not a must but you are investing this kind of money then you want to be safe and try avoid pulling the motor again and spending 5k that you hadn't planned before. And he didn't factor either using the pettit subframe or moving everything back for you either.

Unless you have a mechanic from japan that has done many 3 rotor conversions, knows his shit, and has a "cheap" way of doing things then I think it will be very costly.

I cant believe you Americans are willing to spend $20K+US on a 20B conversion. Thats NZ$50K.
Our Full rebuild of our 20B cost NZ$12K will full polishing, porting and all new seals throughout (oh and that included removal and instalation.
Now, Turbo and manifold NZ$6k, ECU, NZ$2.5K, Clutch NZ$1.5K, I/C NZ$1K, Radiator $1K,
now that's only NZ$24K, now I know there is labour and a few other bits and pieces, but not another NZ$26K worth.
You guys must go over board.
Exhaust, mate it up to what you already have.
Whats wrong with factory LSD?
Why add rims and tyres into the equation??
I guess you guys don't have "Kiwi injinuity" though do you.

My brothers boss (RX-7 Heaven, NZ) is about to put a 20B into his Bat. i will find out what that costs him. It wil be the first in NZ thats road legal that I know of. He already has one with an alloy 406 V8 and 6 speed in it.

Bitchn - Soz mate. but an FD exhaust has trouble coping with a 13B ;p

He might be legit....give him the benefit for a while at least.... :D

If you haven't seen my previous post, I'll cut&paste just for you...

$3000 20B
$2000 clutch
$2000 EMS
$1000 rad + cooling
$1500 IC
$2000 Turbo + manifold (unless you're going stock twins?)
$1000 Exhaust
$100 IC piping
$200 materials for mounting
$500 front anti-sway bar
$1000 Recalibrate suspension
$500 Ignition system
$1000 Fuel System
$3000 Rims and Tires
$1000 LSD
$400 Mazdspeed PPF
[/B][/QUOTE]


That's about $5,300US.&nbsp The motors imported here range from anywhere from $2,000US to $4,000US.&nbsp A "rebuild kit" can only be bought from MazdaComp, which should easily break $1,000US for all brand new parts and gaskets.&nbsp That's already coming close to your quote - if these guys were in the U.S., the rebuild and porting would practically be free!&nbsp Is this something ANYBODY can pay for and buy?&nbsp There are very few shops that can rebuild these things in the U.S....

Turbo and manifold for about $2,700US - what brand, type, and model turbo are we talking about here?&nbsp Some plain-jane Garrett model?&nbsp Sure you can get a T76 for about $1,600US...that leaves $1,000US for the manifold.&nbsp ECU for $1,100US?&nbsp Microtech? :)

What clutch can handle over 500lb/ft of torque for $700US?

Intercooler for $450US?&nbsp You can barely buy a CORE for that much!

You're missing the custom engine cradle, ignition components (Microtech runs it's own coils?), piping for IC and exhaust, the upgrade fuel system (and fuel injectors), and serious fabrication for relocating the steering and front anti-sway bars - that's a serious amount of work to be calling "bits and pieces"...

Boy, guess you've never built one of these things.&nbsp Sure, you CAN use the stock exhaust, STOCK fuel system, STOCK tires and wheels, STOCK LSD, etc., but you'll end up with a very limited vehicle with a very restricted powerplant.

All the torque is going to spin anything less than 275 wide tires.&nbsp You gonna recommend we keep off the gas pedal now?&nbsp The stock LSD breaks with anything over 400lb/ft of torque going through it - that makes it a MUST-CHANGE item in my book, if you're going to even "mildly" modify the 20B.&nbsp The stock fuel injectors barely support over 300hp, you gonna keep off the boost too?&nbsp You're assuming a lot of fabrication that's gonna be FREE - boy, your shop is going to love you for assuming that much - do you OWN the shop or something?

I'd say you're seriously underestimating the cost to build one of these things.&nbsp I tell you what - you build me a an FD with a 20B swap into it, running, putting down at least 500hp for $10,600US, and I'll buy it from you + the cost of the car itself.&nbsp Here I am busting my balls, trying to do this conversion for under $20,000US, and you can cut that in HALF!&nbsp Boy, that's a bargain!



-Ted

Oops, current exchange rate is 2.28 for NZ to US...



-Ted

Ted - If anything in Australia, we do get cheap turbos. You can pick up a turbo capable of flowing close to 800hp for under $2000AUD. Granted its not roller bearing, but it makes more than enough power for a triple :D

ok first off all i don't know why some of you guys are acting like dicks when i asked for a simple question, i thank you for the others for answering my question. second the motor isn't even in the car yet so how am i gonna prove, i have know digital camera unless you want to send me some money to go buy one just to show you and when i said this is my friend of course he is gonna hook me up with the best he can do he has a webpage for his store but its not finish and i don't know if i can even post it up because its not my decision. if you guys are hardcore racers and live in so cal or near Orange county you should all know Speed Image from along time ago that is my friend his new shop is name "Jer" you can say he is pretty much the O.G. of import racers. since some one already answered my question this is my last post . thank You

all i can say is try to send some pics of how the prject is going

Calm down, Ted =o).

I have to agree with Ted on his comments.

Unless you already have a platform that is prepped for the 20B, you're going to have to do a lot of fabrication or purchasing of lots of parts (that aren't cheap).

Pushing back the firewall/driveshaft, etc is the most proper way of doing a 20B conversion if you want to retain the stock steering geometry.

The petit cradle pushes the steering rack into a new location and you'll have bump steer as a result.

I met the guy who installed the polished 3-rotor engine from either NZ or AUS. He ended up rebuilding it after it blew (I hear it may be due to a "lousy" rebuild).
So going back to a few people's comments about rebuilding the engine when you get it, it would be wise since you're throwing so much $$$ at it.

To answer the question of this thread:
1) You could use a Haltech and run ZERO split timing.
2) Run IG5 and igniter/coils (looking at least above $1k)
3) Run a Microtech for about the same price (contact Tito @ AlamoRotary if you'd like to purchase a unit)
btw, Tito's 3 rotor looks and sounds emmaculate!

Have fun fabricating the exhaust and other stuff.
There are a lot of details you'll need to work out (throttle cable, turbo placement if you're going single, coil/ignitor placement, etc).

J

Calm down, Ted =o).

I have to agree with Ted on his comments.

Unless you already have a platform that is prepped for the 20B, you're going to have to do a lot of fabrication or purchasing of lots of parts (that aren't cheap).

Pushing back the firewall/driveshaft, etc is the most proper way of doing a 20B conversion if you want to retain the stock steering geometry.

The petit cradle pushes the steering rack into a new location and you'll have bump steer as a result.

I met the guy who installed the polished 3-rotor engine from either NZ or AUS. He ended up rebuilding it after it blew (I hear it may be due to a "lousy" rebuild).
So going back to a few people's comments about rebuilding the engine when you get it, it would be wise since you're throwing so much $$$ at it.

To answer the question of this thread:
1) You could use a Haltech and run ZERO split timing.
2) Run IG5 and igniter/coils (looking at least above $1k)
3) Run a Microtech for about $1800 (contact Tito @ AlamoRotary if you'd like to purchase a unit)
btw, Tito's 3 rotor looks and sounds emmaculate!

Have fun fabricating the exhaust and other stuff.
There are a lot of details you'll need to work out (throttle cable, turbo placement if you're going single, coil/ignitor placement, etc).

J

OK, as b4, all prices NZ
Also, I haven't included the cost of the car, I figure you would already have this.

Haltech $2500 or another $700 for IG5 or maybe Microtech but not my choice

Turbo kit $6000, XTR 700HP BB Garret, XTR 55mm Wastegate and manifold. Manifold is to suit 13B, but here in NZ we can make our own cheap anyway so can buy Turbo and wastegate separately.

I/C, I can get a 600x300x100mm Bar and Plate I/C for $1000 with tanks

$12000 engine rebuild. Seal and gasket kit alone cost $4000. There was porting, polishing detailing, mint 2nd hand Rotor and housing etc. this was built by Glenn monroe at Rotary Power NZ. he is one of the best engine builders in NZ (and one of the bloody slowest), he has probably sold more 20B's to the US than anybody and built more 20B's than anyone else in NZ. And yes, anybody can go to him and pay the same. Our 20B thats going into our 323 is going to be rebuilt for about $7-8000, with about $1000 polishing on top of that by my brothers boss. If you want to see a pic of the engine we already have had done to prove we have actually had this done, go check out the pics in the members section Bitchn7.

Exhaust, I would assume if you are inclined to put a 20B into a Bat that you wouls at least already have an aftermarket or custom exhaust. Still $1500NZ max> we had a twin system made for our JC Cosmo, 3" mandrel into two 2 1/2" pipes, stainless steel mufflers at the back for $900 retail (I pay less for the mufflers), straight 3" madrell all the way would have been even less.

No I have never done this before but, engine cradle? I am sure some custom engine mounts will do the job.

Clutch, Custom made here in NZ! We have a clutch on our Supercharged 13B and a customer with one on a race S4 13B Turbo, these are good for good for 500HP and I would retail that at $1k So an even stronger one wouldn't be much more, why spend $3K on OS Gieken etc??


Fuel pump $600, coils, get some off a crashed S6 or Cosmo, plenty around if you look hard enough, I happen to have a set even (20B)

Injectors, find some second hand 12A turbo injectors.

This is what I mean by you going overbaord, you don't have to go new everything, sure if you are loaded go for it (I am going to use all new purely as I can get it all at trade). Just curious, what is the average hourly rate charged by workshops in the US? It just seems that somethings are bloody exspensive when for a country that would have so much competition. Why can't the usual rotary workshops build a 20B?? Shit, there are guys here in NZ building PP 20B's in their back yard (11.4 second 323 sedan converted to rear drive, road legal). Its not that different.

I don't want to piss anyone off, it just seems you guys are getting ripped off. But, this could be due to there being so many people in the US with a lot of money to spend, so they can afford to charge like a wounded bull knowing you can afford to pay and are willing to do so.
When my brothers boss does his Bat, i will see what is needed to be done, then maybe we should build an NZ made kit and sell it to you guys.

And upgrade fuel SYSTEM goes way beyond an upgrade fuel pump.&nbsp At 500hp, the stockl 8.5mm O.D. metal fuel like is becoming restrictive.&nbsp To do this RIGHT, you should be running a -6AN or -8AN SS line under the car to the engine bay.&nbsp An aftermarket FPR should be included ($120US, $300NZ), cause you need to TUNE the FPR for the application.&nbsp A Bosch 300lph fuel is BARELY enough to support 500hp - this is already $200US, $465NZ just for this fuel pump; we would normally run TWO of these on a high-power 20B turbo...

Stock coils are CRAP.&nbsp We were using a set of six FC trailings that were overpowered by the pair of MSD DIS-4 boxes.&nbsp This means SIX BRAND NEW coils.


Too bad we don't ANY of them running around - they were never brought into the country.&nbsp 720cc/min?&nbsp That only replaces the stock secondary fuel injectors (primary fuel injectors are side-feed) - 15% more capacity?&nbsp You're up to 350hp - you're still short another 100 or so hp with these fuel injectors.

Have you ever BUILT a 20B car?&nbsp It seems like your regurgiating a lot of crap from third part sources.&nbsp You have no idea what's involved with building such a beast, so why don't you admit you have no clue...

My input on this thread stop here.&nbsp It's a waste of my time arguing with someone who is "benchracing" without any direct experience in the matter.



-Ted

Fuel Pump I suggested for a start was $600. i fucked that up, should be $900 and will support 600HP no worries (my supplier uses one of these on a 750HP N/A 5.7 Gen 3 Commodore). Fuel regulator, $200.
Fuel lines costs stuff all so put that in the bits and pieces price lists.

So after replacing the secondary injectors with 12A turbo injectors (850cc), this would only be good for 350HP? I find that hard to believe considering that the Cosmo is 300-320HP standard.

In NZ its not uncommon to add extra injectors (which can be sourced second hand) rather than buy large new injectors. This means you get better fuel control as yu run numerous small capacity injectors as opposed to a few large ones. Check out the pics of Lance Warrens 20B HB Cosmo on www.3rotor.com. Check out the extra injector set up, and yes this can be done without the $10mil worth of anidised fittings.
Ignition, the guy that built our 20B said not to bother changing the coils as they are very good. So going on his advice there.

As I said in my last post, i haven't done this (a highly modified 20B) before, but have a fair idea.
Quite frankly, all I was trying to say from the start was that you guys seem to pay a lot for the work you have done. Doesn't seem to be worth it when it can be done for less.

our labor rate is $105 and hour. one of the other dealers in the area is $120 (!). i'm at about 6.5k usd in my 20b fc, it will be running with about another $1-2k.
it wont be making 600hp (stock turbos, boost, injectors, wallet, etc) but it will run

mike

Well, I rest my case. Bloody hell :(
$105 an hour. US?
In NZ, the average 'high' rate is $50 an hour +GST which is 12.5%, so $56NZ an hour. Thats about $20US.
One of my suspension suppliers charges $75 for labour (there main mech worked for Koni in Holland) and I though that was steap.

RXTed, regardless of what I may be missing out regarding parts etc. You may be right, you would be better to get the car built in NZ or OZ if you are paying the same rates as j9FDs, You want a right hand drive? We can FD's here in NZ for around $18000NZ upwards.
Freight would be about $4k US for both way if you were to send your car to one of the rotary guys here:)

Damn, $105, thats amazing. No wander the top shops over there have such exspensive toys, they are raking it in.

I love NZ even more now.

They aren't exactly raking it in because the overhead (mechanic's pay, rent, insurance, etc.) is also more expensive. I would imagine that the profit margin is similar to the Anzac shops because I don't know of too many mechanics with million-dollar homes. Also note that the average American income is higher (the USA GDP per capita is about twice that of NZ), so the cost (price paid vs. income) is probably also similar. It's all relative. :)

BTW, the labor at my local race shop is $60/hr plus state tax, but the dealerships charge much more.

we are a dealership, and so far ive done all the labor myself.

mike

You can afford to do the swap, but can't afford a dig. camera? Makes a lot of sense....