Warning on Buying Rebuilt 12As
 

Before anyone buys a 12A rebuilt engine from Atkins Rotary in Puyallup, WA, you ought to talk with me. The engines are reasonably priced and come with a 2yr warranty, but the warranty isn't worth a flip. I've had two of their engines fail on me in the last year. One from a stationary gear failure that they wouldn't cover because they said it can only fail like that with over RPM (which I am NOT guilty of). I was fool enough to buy another one that failed shortly thereafter due to bearings failing. They say bearings only fail beause of oil problems and that also is not covered.

I have a Atkin's rebuilt in my 90 vert. It is running fine.
hanman

Well what the hell do they cover?! This is why I wouldn't let someone build any engine I use. (Ofcourse not everyone knows how to build a engine) I WANT to know exactly whats in there and whats the condition of every part I used. Warrenties are made with tricky wording to cover their ass from actual liability. They probably cover nothing. THere are no normal failures in two years if its built properily and it hasn't seen boost or NOS. and has proper timing, fuel ratio, and correct cooling and oiling.


And even though I never had a engine I assembled break or had a cataphrophic event. What the hell would they ACTUally cover. Apex seals don't fail unless there is a reason to fail. They KNOW how these engines are driven, and letting them deterimine what is covered and whats not, is bullshit in a sense. THis is because they can make up whatever. Maybe they used a unusable stationary gear they shouldn't of. NO way to disprove without it apart. THe ligestics of checking their work is not cost-effective or easy.

I rev the piss out of my home build bridgeport every second and it just keeps on ticking! :) No harden stationaries, hp oil regulator, carbon seals, no reving past 9000rpm. No sustained rpm above 8000rpm. Only during 1st, 2nd and 3rd under hard acceration since the power peak is ~8000rpm. I don't see how a stock engine could fail if it was taken up to 8000rpm as long as it wasn't held there...but there would be no use winding it that high unless the power peak is close to it.

Do a search with there name....you'll find you're not alone.

If you want a quality builder, i'd suggest Pineapple Racing. He does stand behind his warrentys....but i can garentee, you'll never have to use it. CJ

I bet your letter wont be one seen on their customers contact us list :)

Alamo Rotary is pretty good as well in the SA area... Tito know's his shit...

I did a search on Atkins as you suggest and found quite a few less than satisfied customers. I also noted that at least they repaired the engines with bearing damage (although they warned they wouldn't do it again). They wouldn't even go that far for me - even though this was the second engine I purchased from them. Too bad I didn't check on the forum before I decided to buy from them the first time.

I'm very satisfied with the work Atkins has done to my engine. It runs great and it's much more powerful and responsive. Before you put the engine in, you MUST check to make sure that all the transmission parts, oil lines, and carb are working like new or else you could run into problems. Also, you can't take it over 4000 RPMs for the first 1,000 miles, but after, you can gradually increase the RPM to redline. I trust their quality.

If you're happy with your motor, thats pretty cool, and i'm happy for you. But it seems as the majority of the people who deal with them have serious problems with there engines.... CJ

pp13bnos:
here is what my search brought up. I am sure there is more, and I am sure you can find some negatives. I stopped after four pages on the search thread.

These are all quotes from the search:

Atkins Rotary is really good and Kathy is really nice to work with. Their prices are
really reasonable for most parts.


They all say Atkins and Pineapple Racing are the best.

It sounds like the reman engine quality from Atkins, Mazda, Malloy and Hayes is all
over the place and I'm nervous...



I looked on e-bay, and came across the fact that Atkins Rotary is a frequent seller.
Unfortunatly the only kit on e-bay at the time, was for an 86-88. After Talking to Kathy,
she told me that if I won, for an extra $10 she's convert it to the 89-91 Kit. Well, due
to time constraints, and otherwise, I missed the end of the auction. I messaged her again,
and she told me she would STILL sell me the kit, for the reserve + $10.

What I'm trying to say is, that Atkins has been really helpful, and quick to respond
favorably to my requests. When it comes to parts, and otherwise; Atkins will be my first
choice from this point on....


Atkins Rotary, I have one of their engines. I like them and the 24 month 24000 mile
warrenty.


I just wanted to get some feedback about Atkins rotary. Last summer my engine blew and was
replace with an atkins motor. Well 5000 miles later the new engine blew. This was about
a month ago. Well I found out today that it was because of the stationary gear bearing
failing on both rotors. From talking to some people I have got mixed information about
things with atkins. I heard that there was a good many of engines that went out of atkins
that have gone bad within a short period of time, possibly because of a supplier change or
something. I am not bashing atkins i just want to get some info to see if this is ture or
not. Anyway let me see some post on any info you have regarding an issue like this. thanks

response:
8,000+ miles on an Atkins streetport w/ shaved rotors, still running hella strong.

I bought an atkins rebuild in september, the first one lasted about 20 mins. until it ate
up the bearings. the second one worked well. I sold the car a few months ago, and as far as
i know the engine is still running strong.


Pulling the engine and taking it down to pineappleracing in Portland is also an idea.
He makes some good engines from all accounts I've heard so far. Atkins is much closer
to you and many people like them. Good luck.


Hi! My personal opinion is that you need to take it to Atkins. I am willing to bet that
it would be worth your drive. My car (before I bought it) was serviced regularly at Aktins
by it's first owner (a co-worker of mine). He had WONDERFUL things to say about them, and
my car is over 140k and the engine is still incredibly strong. I have heard the same things
as the above posts about Hayes, but nice guys there, so you decide.


I FINALLY GOT TIRED OF SEARCHING, SO I STARTED LOOKING FOR ONLY NEGATIVE COMMENTS ON ATKINS,
HERE IS WHAT I FOUND:



Has anyone had luck with Atkins engines? Apparently, they've been using an abrasive that
is causing a premature death in their engines. A buddy of mine, "flying taco" had a
street-ported engine go out on him a month after installing it. No compression on the
front and erratic compression on the rear.
RESPONSE:
I have an Atkin's engine. I am very happy with there engine and customer service. I bought
a streetported engine for my '91 TII.

At 2000 miles I got low oil pressure. 10 PSI at idle and 55 and 3000 rpm. I sent the
engine back to them. Apparently the oil became contaminated. They are replacing bearings,
housings, supplying needed gaskets, paying for shipping all under warrenty. Even though
there was a problem I am still happy with Atkins.

I have a '86 RX-7 base model with a 180,000 miles on her. I am waiting for the engine to go.
When it does I am going to install an Atkins engine.

If they install engines into aircraft and people fly these planes. I trust their quailty.
If an engine goes in a plane. The inconvience is slightly greater than when it goes in an
RX-7.

I am very happy with Atkins and their customer service. David is great to work with.

James


So much for all of the negative complaints on ATKINS.
hanman

and exactly how many owners of ATKINS rebuilds did you poll to determine that the majority of them were unsatisfied?

How many miles have you logged on your new engine?

I wonder if I should have gone with the thicker apex seals - extra $300. I probably out to use MMO in the gas tank just as a precaution, should the metering pump ever fail...MMO won't crudd up the engine, right? Next thing I've got to do is the paint and exhaust. Woohoo!:doh:

85RX7GS - What the heck does that have to do with buying a rebuilt 12a? How many miles do you have on your trustworthy Atkins 12a?????

I wish you did. You could have saved alot of time and money just coming down to Columbus. My friend owns a shop that specializes in rotories. There is not much he can't do with a rotary. See sig for number.

Here's a short list of those less than satisfied with Atkins that I got from my word search (note that they repaired many of these guys engines but not mine!):

Forget Atkins. I personally know two RX-7 owners that have had their Atkins engines self-destruct due to bad main bearings. This has also been affecting alot of other people on the forums. Lately their quality control has been slipping and I really wouldn't trust them.

I'm personally going with Pineapple Racing when it comes to order the engine for my TII (3 more weeks!!!). Not only do they have one of the better reputations besides Mazdatrix, but they also offer awesome warranties.
_____________________________________________

just wanted to get some feedback about Atkins rotary. Last summer my engine blew and was replace with an atkins motor. Well 5000 miles later the new engine blew. This was about a month ago. Well I found out today that it was because of the stationary gear bearing failing on both rotors. From talking to some people I have got mixed information about things with atkins. I heard that there was a good many of engines that went out of atkins that have gone bad within a short period of time, possibly because of a supplier change or something. I am not bashing atkins i just want to get some info to see if this is ture or not. Anyway let me see some post on any info you have regarding an issue like this. thanks
___________________________________________

I think Delco Remi does the rebuild for Mazda if I remember right. Anyway the Mazda rebuild are suppose to be very high quality. Someone tour their shop before and made a report. As for Atkins, I've heard a few bad thigns about it. If I need a motor, most likely Mazda rebuild or Pineapple racing
____________________________________________

At 2000 miles I got low oil pressure. 10 PSI at idle and 55 and 3000 rpm. I sent the engine back to them. Apparently the oil became contaminated. They are replacing bearings, housings, supplying needed gaskets, paying for shipping all under warrenty. Even though there was a problem I am still happy with Atkins.

_____________________________________________

yeah..... defininitely blown.... shitty... im sending it back to Atkins pretty soon... and hopeufully have it back in within a few weeks.

Aaron
____________________________________________

Fellas, make sure when you do an engine swap that you make sure your oil pan and oil cooler is flushed out. I purchased an engine from Atkins rotary, it lasted about 30 minutes before the bearings were in the oil pan. I believe that the bearings were not properly installed, but Atkins says that it was oil contaminants, and if it happens again they will not cover it. I know that my oil cooler and oil pan was clean, but i cannot prove that. Atkins REPAIRED the engine, but im scared that it will happen again. does anyone have any ideas?

To be honest, i got messed up with atkins, and hayes. But thanks to brook, i don't have to eat my words....to much. :D From what i understand though, i'd still wrather go to Pinepple than 99% of the shops out there. Its just not worth taking a chance over. CJ

Atkins Warranty
 

Hi Guys,

You can review our warranty at http://www.atkinsrotary.com/autoengwarra.htm

On the first page is our expectations as to the installation, next is the warranty, and third a required maintenance schedule.

On Mr. Brooks' first engine, the engine failed as a result of the stationary gear was mashed. This was due to high RPMs. I emailed Mr. Brooks with documentation as a reference. This type of action is beyond our control. Hardened gears may have helped, but a stock engine is not built to with stand high demand situations.

Mr. Brooks second engine failed, but he was unwilling to send the engine in for a claim. He stated that there was a bearing failure. 99% of bearing failures are from low or no oil pressure. Once again this is beyond our control.

Mr. Brooks has asked us for advise in modifying an engine to go into his application. We gave a general reply that the engine was different from his in the exhaust and intake set ups. Mr. Brooks was again unhappy, as he expected step-by-step procedures. We are unable to supply this type of support.

We build approximately 2-3 engines per day and have less than a 1% failure rate due to workmanship. The reasons for the low failure rate are a direct result of our testing procedures and all the new parts we put into each engine.

Mr. Brooks last request was to send him all of the parts to fix the engine, plus the tools and a video so that he could do the work him self. Well the videotape we offer is for a second-generation style 13B and not his first generation style 12A. As there are noticeable differences in the engine. Second, this is way out of line.

Our engine warranty is on line for public viewing, and is the only warranty that is offered. We can not be held responcible for the lack of care an engine is given.

I build engines myself, on a considerably smaller scale and using some used parts for budget purposes. So Ill chime in here.

First off, let me say I have never seen a stationary or rotor gear failure. Never. I have been through about 200+ rx7s in 4 years and have not yet seen one. I have had some friends/aquaintances who did rough shit to their engines too.

Secondly, the only way I see you could tear up a stat. gear or rotor gear is excessive high rpm driving for extended periods of time. The centrifugal force of the rotor spinning at this rate warps, then cracks, the stationary gear. I have heard of this with race engines...**NEVER** with a street engine. I have taken apart in excess of 50+ engines for core parts, and have never seen any gear wear on a stock or near stock engine.

Next, I have only seen engines fail due to bearings, when they are run low on oil...very low. Most of the time when I take engines apart and measure/inspect rotor and main bearings, they are in pretty good condition...so much so that I havent had to replace many so far.Those enignes are still out there running around on used bearings, and doing great.

All I have to say about this is that these stock bearings and gears lasted fine for street use for 11-16 years in an FC, and continue to do so today in some of my rebuilds. You got engines with new bearings in them and still managed to tear them up; I dont think I would blame atkins for this.

Want me to bring you one at the NOPI Nats? :-) Got one here that was inspected before it went into the motor, less than 500 miles later (never over 3000rpm), was cracked all the way through. Had to pull the motor and replace with new hardened stationary gears. Gear had been in the motor before for 100K miles, never over 8K rpms before. It can happen, just not often.

Atkins engines
 

I had Atkins rebuild a 12a for my 83 Rx7 about three years ago. As a machinist and engine builder myself, I specifically chose Atkins for the quality of their work, which I was allowed to inspect at their shop before my purchase. The references from other customers were impressive, also. I have run this engine daily, I now have about 40k on it with no problems whatsoever.
I've built over 300 engines myself, all were american v-8's, with only six failures. Four were due to neglect or misuse, two were failed components. There are no perfect engine builders, and there is no way for a builder to control the variables in the installation or use of their engines. Atkins' warranty is pretty much industry-standard for engine builders, and their work is definitely above average.
Although I sympathize with people who have had problems with their engines, I think there is more to it than the way the engines were built.

Thats pretty good luck. Most of the time, I'd have to say I agree that they don't fail easily. But recently i had to replace 3 shattered carbon seals, then after I got done breaking it in again, I took it up to 8500rpm regularily(since its a bridgeport and I do that daily when accerating from a stop :D ) . A few days later, I noted a vibration as I rev'd it past 4000rpm. IT got progressively worse and worse that day. I was VERY upset as I just put it back together and finshed the break-in.

So out it came and to my surpise all the bearing were fine, and I even neglected to look at the stationaries for a little bit. Then I saw them!!!! ARGGG!!!
Turns out the rear stationary gear has bit the dust and ruined the rear rotors gear too. I was surpised that it was "THAT BAD" and still ran very smooth at lower rpm. Even when I turned the engine by hand, I could not tell any unsmoothness in the rotation. I should take pics and display on this link when I remember. ITs missing a couple teeth and a couple are dis-located. One is severily moved away from were it should be!!!!

Anyway, before all this I drove the bridgeport every day hard for 12000miles with zero problems, I even took it to the road course and kept the tac between 6000rpm-8500rpm all day with zero problems. I always check all parts before assembly and this one "just failed" suddenly......without warning :( Maybe the metal fatigue or tiny fractures caught up with me? I am not sure. :(

Kathy - My engine is running great and I applaud your excellent service and craftsmanship.

It's got everything to do with it, especially reliability of the seals! You know....most people buy 12As that are rebuilt, or they rebuild their's.

12As already have 3mm seals. Mazda doesn't make any larger seals and any seals that ARE larger don't last as long as Mazda stuff.

Some years ago their was a major research study done on taxis. The finding was that the main factor in failure was the car had been serviced so no bias, but had a friend recently, and other than a rare oil change if you wanted 500,000 miles out of them never get them serviced!

The same goeswith a rebuild, unless everything is changed and blueprinted there is going to be new stress on an old part. This is why failure rates are higher on rebuilds than new engines. The expected failure rate is 1/2 to 1 1/2%. That is if Atkins rebuilds 500-550 engines a year, then about 7 are going to fail, some for non warranty reasons. For two to fail for the same owner would be unusual but not statistically rare.

The real problem is we talk about the failures not the success. Thus the bigger the operation, the worse their reputation becomes!

I have no knowledge of Atkins but had a friend who owned a major rebuilding factory with good quality control. Inspite of that 2 1/2% of sales was placed in a contingency profit centre to cover warranty claims and the cost of working out wahy it happened and how to avoid the problem reoccuring.

Thus I think its unfair to blame a rebuilder unless there is srong evidence of negligence or fraud. Perhaps I do have a bias. I spent some time rebuilding a chainsaw motor some months ago only to have a major failure within weeks and I could not sue myself! If I costed out my time I could have bought three new ones.