|
Turbo'ing....
Well here is it... i'm kinda new to this forum... but not to BCRX7.com... well this is what i'm planning on doing... now i need advice and technical help... anything will be awesome!
OK... i have a 1985 GSLSE... and i'm thinking of turboing it... well i am... i have someone making me a manifold for a turbo to bolt on... now... what i need to know is this: 1. Do i need a standalone/piggyback, or can i still use my stock ECU? 2. If not(menaing if i dont need a standalone or piggyback)... can i use a T2 ECU? 3. i was told i may need to advance my timing? is this true and by what? and how? 4. will i need to upgrade my injectors? stock 680cc 5. oil lines... where can i splice into it? can i slpice into it before it goes into the oil cooler or after? or should i do it else where? 6. can my compression/ engine handle the boost? 7. can my tranny handle the power? 8. can i remove my air flow meter so that way i can have it intercooled... lol 9. will i need a boost controller? 10. will i need a boost timer? 11. what kinda turbo do you recommend? I think thats it... if i have more i will post... more questions will probabyl come up with your answers... and yes i know a t2 swap may be better... but thats the route i DO NOT wanna go... Oh and BTW i have a new engine... when i bought it the motor blew... so i got a brand new engine... if that means anything.... Again thanks in advance for all of you help!!! Cory! |
Okay this is what you do you get a s5 turbo and manifold, you space the turbo out 3 inches to clear the Lower intake manifold, get a RB 2.5 downpipe, get a vortech FMU, a volvo 740 FMIC, a 1gdsm bypass valve, weld your own plumbing for the intercooler,
the stock GSL-SE Egi is good for up to 9 psi without touching the timing, after 9psi the stock ecu starts to go wacky. you will also need a walbro inline pump or you will lean out hardcore at higher rpms keep the turbo at stock boost on the wastegate, getting an intake and exhaust will naturally up your boost pressure roughly 1.5-2 psi, also do not blowthrough your air flow meter, put the AFM before the intake on the turbo, or else the AFM will start to fall apart from the pressure running through it this is my plan for my gsl-se, ive already got 90 percent of my parts, just waiting for more money to get the rest, and no doubt i will be doing a complete pictorial write up on my progress, and if i can afford it i might start pieceing together a relativley bolt on "kit" for gsl-se's, if i do this successfully and i can start making kits, which would inclue the turbo, manifold, downpipe, FMU, fuel pump, intercooler, BPV, and piping i would probably sell them for 1000 bux.. not bad for a bolt on turbo package with expected gains of roughly 50-60 hp, im shooting for s5 TII hp numbers 190-200 crank Hp |
get a vortech FMU, a volvo 740 FMIC, a 1gdsm bypass valve,
and these mean? sorry... but familiar with the appreviations... and what about just doing a custom manifold and buy a t3 turbo or something like that? cuz i would much rather get a 100-150 hp gian then a 40-60 hp gain... plus does anyone else have any comments or advice? |
yo arent gonna push 100 hp gain with the stock fuel injection... the 680cc injectors can only feed a max of 200 hp, now if your talking about upgrading to tII intake EFI and ECu then thats a different story, my kit will be a simple bolt on deal that give you decent gains for a street car without having to upgrade you fuel injection or computer....
a vortech FMU is a Fuel Management Unit, it goes inbetween the line for the fuel return, how it works is that it gets a vaccum line fromt he same line say for instance that you would tap into for a boost gauge, what it does is that it cuts off your return to compensate for however much boost you are running, so you will be able to feed your engine enough fuel for how much boost you are running. a volvo 740 FMIC, is a front mounted intercooler that was used in teh older volvo turbo 740's its a nice intercooler and its virtually drop in for first gens, a 1gdsm bypass valve is a stock "blow off valve" used in the older turbo Diamond star motor cars (eclipse, talon, galant, laser) its a very good unit, all metal and its easy to vent it into your intake versus venting to the atmosphere, you dont want to vent to the atmostphere on a mass air type vehicle, becuase by letting air out of the intake system, you cuase the computer to extreemly richen the fuel mixture when the "bov" is going off inbetween shifts... venting to the intake eleminates this problem.. |
|
keep in mind, my "kit" is not going to be for the die hard drag racer who expects 12 second e.t. becuase he turbocharges his first gen, this will be a modest kit, that might produce some high 13 second e.t.s with proper tuning and good traction of course i wont have any guarantees with my kit, its pretty much a platform for the buyer to work off of, but it will be sold as a BOLT ON ready to go kit (tuning not included) ;)
|
Things i will not include in my kit are turbo timers, boost controllers,
basically my kit will come with the following 1X series 5 turbocharger in known tested working condition 1X series 5 exhaust manifold modified to clear the lower intake manifold 1X stock downpipe or a 2.5" or even 3" racing beat downpipe for an extra cost 1x stainless steel braided oil feed line with proper fitting to put into the stock oil pressure sending tap on the block 1x stainless steel braided oil return line (you gotta tap the front cover sorry :) ) 1x Vortech Fuel management unit 1x volvo 740 front mount intercooler (some modifications needed to fit) 1x all the pipes, fittings and clamps needed to plumb the intercooler 1x 1Gdsm bypass valve with proper hoses and stuff to vent it to the intake 1x intake pipe with connectors and adapter to put the AFM in front of the turbo intak 1x generic pre oiled con filter with proper intake piping and last but not least instructions for this "kit" depending on what i have to pay for parts i will more than likely charge roughly a grand for this kit |
I don't think I would choose EFI and the boosted SE engine!
Remember the SE is 9.4 compression ratio and the S4 T2 is 8.5, that's a big difference. Unless you REALLY know what you are doing tuning and building this engine I would stay away from high compression like my life depended on it. I'm not saying it can't be done, just is difficult and will require tuning ability on a dyno with a WB. If you do go this route I would keep the boost below 5 psi (per two RB tech manuals) and upgrade the oil system pressure regulator to 80-90 psi. I'm not sure the 2 680's can give you enough fuel. Get some bigger injectors and a piggy back, then set it up to work off of a boost pressure signal (you'll need to find a sensor and add it in). Get a fuel pressure gage and keep a close eye on it. If you get low fuel pressure at the high HP then you will need an upgraded pump and FPR. Be warned--it doesn't take much to get one of these engines to detonate and then kaboom--there goes an apex seal requiring an engine rebuild. Also a good FMIC install will possibly save your butt. Oh yea, run the highest octane you can find (93/94 mininum). And I wouldn't look for more than about 180-200 hp out of this setup (at 5 psi), if you want more than do it right and forget about boosting a high compression engine. So the way I see it you have a few choices. 1) Go high compression and stay below 5 psi boost. 2) Go with an EFI engine that already is turbo. 3) Go with a blow thru set up (on the HC engine maybe?). I don't know much about the blow thru, search around many are doing it. Robert at Rotary Shack would be my first stop--I'm sure he can give you good advice. Given you want to use that engine it may be your best choice. If I had to do it over again I would go with a rebuilt Jspec Cosmo engine and stand-alone. I seriously recommend you do more research on all the options before commiting to buying parts. Here's my answers to your numbered questions: 1. Do i need a standalone/piggyback, or can i still use my stock ECU? Stock ECU alone won't cut it. Mininum is a piggyback with a boost pressure signal. 2. If not(menaing if i dont need a standalone or piggyback)... can i use a T2 ECU? No this is even harder (I did it). Also the T2 uses four injectors and a Crank Angle Sensor. 3. i was told i may need to advance my timing? is this true and by what? and how? Don't know but I would guess retard not advance. 4. will i need to upgrade my injectors? stock 680cc I'd upgrade them to be safe. 5. oil lines... where can i splice into it? can i slpice into it before it goes into the oil cooler or after? or should i do it else where? I'd use the oil cooler adapter for oil supply and the front cover for the turbo drain. 6. can my compression/ engine handle the boost? Already discussed. 7. can my tranny handle the power? At 5 psi you should be OK. 8. can i remove my air flow meter so that way i can have it intercooled... lol. All of the stock ECUs need the AFM. Only a standalone will rid you of the AFM. You still can use an AFM and have the IC. 9. will i need a boost controller? Not at 5 psi-- that's where the S5 wastegate is set to open up. Any higher and yes you then need a BC. 10. will i need a boost timer? No this is a water cooled turbo. 11. what kinda turbo do you recommend? S4/S5 turbo. HTH, Good Luck, Scott :) |
While this is for a second gen, it will still be very helpful.
http://www.aaroncake.net/RX-7/naturbo1.htm https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...threadid=88540 |
Originally Posted by TEA_ESS_EYE
Okay this is what you do you get a s5 turbo and manifold, you space the turbo out 3 inches to clear the Lower intake manifold, get a RB 2.5 downpipe, get a vortech FMU, a volvo 740 FMIC, a 1gdsm bypass valve, weld your own plumbing for the intercooler,
the stock GSL-SE Egi is good for up to 9 psi without touching the timing, after 9psi the stock ecu starts to go wacky. you will also need a walbro inline pump or you will lean out hardcore at higher rpms keep the turbo at stock boost on the wastegate, getting an intake and exhaust will naturally up your boost pressure roughly 1.5-2 psi, also do not blowthrough your air flow meter, put the AFM before the intake on the turbo, or else the AFM will start to fall apart from the pressure running through it this is my plan for my gsl-se, ive already got 90 percent of my parts, just waiting for more money to get the rest, and no doubt i will be doing a complete pictorial write up on my progress, and if i can afford it i might start pieceing together a relativley bolt on "kit" for gsl-se's, if i do this successfully and i can start making kits, which would inclue the turbo, manifold, downpipe, FMU, fuel pump, intercooler, BPV, and piping i would probably sell them for 1000 bux.. not bad for a bolt on turbo package with expected gains of roughly 50-60 hp, im shooting for s5 TII hp numbers 190-200 crank Hp either that or i will have to just use the cartech turbo mani. any more suggestions? |
Originally Posted by Rex4Life
I don't think I would choose EFI and the boosted SE engine!
Remember the SE is 9.4 compression ratio and the S4 T2 is 8.5, that's a big difference. Unless you REALLY know what you are doing tuning and building this engine I would stay away from high compression like my life depended on it. I'm not saying it can't be done, just is difficult and will require tuning ability on a dyno with a WB. If you do go this route I would keep the boost below 5 psi (per two RB tech manuals) and upgrade the oil system pressure regulator to 80-90 psi. I'm not sure the 2 680's can give you enough fuel. Get some bigger injectors and a piggy back, then set it up to work off of a boost pressure signal (you'll need to find a sensor and add it in). Get a fuel pressure gage and keep a close eye on it. If you get low fuel pressure at the high HP then you will need an upgraded pump and FPR. Be warned--it doesn't take much to get one of these engines to detonate and then kaboom--there goes an apex seal requiring an engine rebuild. Also a good FMIC install will possibly save your butt. Oh yea, run the highest octane you can find (93/94 mininum). And I wouldn't look for more than about 180-200 hp out of this setup (at 5 psi), if you want more than do it right and forget about boosting a high compression engine. So the way I see it you have a few choices. 1) Go high compression and stay below 5 psi boost. 2) Go with an EFI engine that already is turbo. 3) Go with a blow thru set up (on the HC engine maybe?). I don't know much about the blow thru, search around many are doing it. Robert at Rotary Shack would be my first stop--I'm sure he can give you good advice. Given you want to use that engine it may be your best choice. If I had to do it over again I would go with a rebuilt Jspec Cosmo engine and stand-alone. I seriously recommend you do more research on all the options before commiting to buying parts. Here's my answers to your numbered questions: 1. Do i need a standalone/piggyback, or can i still use my stock ECU? Stock ECU alone won't cut it. Mininum is a piggyback with a boost pressure signal. 2. If not(menaing if i dont need a standalone or piggyback)... can i use a T2 ECU? No this is even harder (I did it). Also the T2 uses four injectors and a Crank Angle Sensor. 3. i was told i may need to advance my timing? is this true and by what? and how? Don't know but I would guess retard not advance. 4. will i need to upgrade my injectors? stock 680cc I'd upgrade them to be safe. 5. oil lines... where can i splice into it? can i slpice into it before it goes into the oil cooler or after? or should i do it else where? I'd use the oil cooler adapter for oil supply and the front cover for the turbo drain. 6. can my compression/ engine handle the boost? Already discussed. 7. can my tranny handle the power? At 5 psi you should be OK. 8. can i remove my air flow meter so that way i can have it intercooled... lol. All of the stock ECUs need the AFM. Only a standalone will rid you of the AFM. You still can use an AFM and have the IC. 9. will i need a boost controller? Not at 5 psi-- that's where the S5 wastegate is set to open up. Any higher and yes you then need a BC. 10. will i need a boost timer? No this is a water cooled turbo. 11. what kinda turbo do you recommend? S4/S5 turbo. HTH, Good Luck, Scott :) |
FMUs aren't the best way to go really. High fuel rail pressure wouldn't make me very comfortable. But they do work.
|
Blow Through carb! Join me in the Dark Side!
|
Nooooo!
Originally Posted by d0 Luck
it doesn't seem that difficult to turbo the SE motor and even w/o tuning actually.
Sorry man, but if you gonna turbo a high compression motor, you better make sure that thing is tuned properly for boost. Does the freakin SE AFM even go high enough to run 10 psi of airflow! I would seriously take d0 Luck's advice with a block of salt.
Originally Posted by d0 Luck
IIRC, web777 is only running the HKS Additional Injector Controller kit for his secondaries and w/o any piggyback ecu. i spoke w/ him awhile back and he's running 10 lbs. of boost now. that's pretty good for pretty much a bolt on setup if you ask me. btw, his motor also has 190k on it and no problems so far! :eek:
Even alot of T2 guys are sqeemish about running 10 psi--ya gotta make sure everything is just right or boom. Also, over 8 psi of boost I would start retarding the timing about 1 degree per psi of boost--not sure how to do it with a stock SE ignition--maybe some sort of MSD ignition controller. Of course after the piggyback and ignition controller you are almost to a stand-alone. A Greddy E-manage could fit the bill at around $400 with all the stuff you need. Any way you cook it, a boosted stock SE high compression rotary engine is very close to the edge of many design parameters--there is very little margin in many areas and it won't take much to blow the engine. My advice is either stay at 5 psi of boost or if you really want more power then go with a real turbo engine setup. Scott |
how much HP gain will i get with 5 psi boost? and what injectors are higher then 680ccs? and what do i have to tune? thats one thing i dont get... like air/fuel ratio? i dont know... lol and that GReddy system you just mentioned... is that a standalone or piggyback system?
|
the only reason i will go turbo on my SE motor is for my modest goal of 220hp to the wheels. yes i will do it right and do more research, but from what web777's setup is, i'm very impressed. additionally, the marginal cost of spending my money on a t2 motor and related miscellaneous would cost me more than turboing my very healthy SE motor. though rest assure that THIS WILL NOT BE MY FINAL SETUP, just trying different flavors out there :)
but rex4life, if you don't believe you should personally talk to web777 then. that's all ;) |
Originally Posted by rx7male
how much HP gain will i get with 5 psi boost?
Originally Posted by rx7male
and what injectors are higher then 680ccs?
Originally Posted by rx7male
and what do i have to tune?
Originally Posted by rx7male
thats one thing i dont get... like air/fuel ratio? i dont know... lol and that GReddy system you just mentioned... is that a standalone or piggyback system?
|
Originally Posted by d0 Luck
the only reason i will go turbo on my SE motor is for my modest goal of 220hp to the wheels. yes i will do it right and do more research, but from what web777's setup is, i'm very impressed. additionally, the marginal cost of spending my money on a t2 motor and related miscellaneous would cost me more than turboing my very healthy SE motor. though rest assure that THIS WILL NOT BE MY FINAL SETUP, just trying different flavors out there :)
|
FMU + fuel pump you are good for 6psi - you should be be a little over 200hp. Anymore you will start to lean out. The stock SE engine is pretty reliable with this setup. This was the orig plan for me SE but I start tinkering with it adding a AIC unit. The car runs good and still reliable but it's not the fastest setup I've felt. I'm happy with it. I wanted a streetable weekend driver which is exactly what I have.
If you want more power then I would go: Blow through, T2 swap or standalone. |
so anyone else have anything they want to say? i really like what everyone is saying so far... anyone else? ohhh hey greg... will a s4 fit instead of a s5 manifold?... like whats the diff between a S4 T2 and a S5 T2?
|
Consider this.......
The TII engines make 180-200hp at the crank with about 7-8psi of boost.If you want 200-220 hp at the wheels on a TII,youll need a boost controller set to about 10-11psi,exhaust system,some larger secondaries and a few other things.That comes out to about 230-240 crank hp which is about a 25% increase in HP. Most TII guys will call that "maxxed" for a stock ECU, especially for a S4.The SE engine has only 2 injectors,higher compression,different porting,smaller manifolds and AFM,a N/A ECU,and a few years less refinement than the TII engine. A 25% increase on an SE engine is about 175HP,or roughly a stock S4 TII engine. This is just my opinion(I do know a thing or 2 about beefing up TII engines with stock ECU....300hp S5 in my 84GS)....but if you want RELIABLE,STOUT,TUNE FRIENDLY,and AFFORDBLE turbo power,you absolutley cant go wrong with a stock/mild,complete TII powerplant.You dont have to think anything up,modify any turbo specific systems,guess on fuel pressures or ignition timing,worry about compression ratios,additional injector contollers,piggybacks.....or any of that crap.Mazda has already done it all for you, in a complete, 100K mile reliable package that can make 220 crank HP with little extra work, and no guesswork or ECU tuning/trickery. Hell,the mods needed to turbo an SE engine alone cost about the same as a complete J-spec setup.....and youll get the actual turbo ready engine too!(plus the turbo,IC,ECU and all the wiring,smog,knocksensor,ect).All 2nd gens in Japan are turbo,so the TII engines are everywhere,waiting to be snapped up.And many of them are automatics.Auto rotaries are nearly always in great shape because they dont get beat/revved nearly as much as manuals. If your gonna turbo a N/A engine,it can and has been done,Im sure theres lots of guys who can offer advice and methods.But youll be walking a thinner line with tuning,and youll have little margin for error during the tuning phase because the engine was never intended for positive manifold pressure.With a TII engine its just a little wiring,a few hoses and turn the key. |
well how mch would a T2 engine cost? with everything... like the tranny and drive train and ECU...this thread was also a reason to price things out... and to see other options... and thank you for putting that one forward... i knew that was there i just didnt think about it to much because i thought it would cost more then to turbo my engine i have now... and that still is there... cuz i'm not turboing just for power... i want maybe a 50 gain... and the sounds of the BOV lol.... i'm mostly doing this for looks... not power... if in the end i want power i'll just go buy a T2 car... lol so thanks again... and dotn forget whats the costs like?
|
Originally Posted by rx7male
... and the sounds of the BOV lol.... i'm mostly doing this for looks... not power...
|
well it will be my daily driver and a show car... i plan on entering local shows so i can win some $$ back and crap.... but it will be mostly for looks... like i'm not wanting to gain 200 horses here... like all i want is at least 50 and thats what i'll get with 5 PSI turboing my engine... so yeah... i dont know... still need to think more about and see what people have to say... but either way i have to wait to get the $$ to get it done... but if i go with turboing the SE engine it will costs me like 600 bucks... the only thing holding me back with this is money and fab... but now i have someone to fab stuff for me... like that spacer and help me weld the IC pipes....
|
then just do a normal s4 t2 swap. polish the hell out of everything under the engine bay. lol
|
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:40 AM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands