Photo Quest: 80-81 Front Pad Hardware
 

I'm in need of photos of the proper position for the small clip-on shim/spring/guide hardware that attach to the caliper & into which the ends of the brake pads go.

My new-in-box 'brake hardware kit' doesn't seem to agree with what I think I should have, nor with what's on my car, and it's been so long since I needed to change them, I can't really remember what 'original' looked like. :blush:

The parts fiche doesn't seem to agree with what I have, nor with what's on the car either.

So, anyone with photos of all four of these in "proper" position, I'd appreciate the pix!

this is the only pic i have hopefully its enough to at least get you started. if i recall the front pad hardware is very symmetrical.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...a/IMG_0440.jpg

the tab you see is directional. one end is larger than the other, they match the bracket where the bottom is larger than the top. and the other one goes opposite it. then the rest should be just spacers.

if you still need pics i have my old caliper hardware and can arrange in on the ground in the correct order, once i get back from class this afternoon

It's a start, but a little short on details (grin) Additional pics of your old hardware would be helpful.

I'll post some pictures of what I have in the new kit, and what's currently on the car, when I get home tonight & get the wheels off. My recollection is that what is on the car consists only of flat contact surfaces without any real spring to them... and I've been having issues with pad knock.

The parts fiche seems to indicate that the new kit should have four parts that apply spring pressure on the pads; but the new kit only contains two such parts out of 8 total.

Last time I swapped pads was in 2003 or thereabouts. My memory's good, but not quite that good.

my old pad hardware is a jumbled mess. if this doesnt make sense i can still go arrange them, but if have to pull a wheel off to tell you how the inner pads are arranged.

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1314836407

i stole this from rock auto. in this picture the clips are arranged inner at the back, then the outer pad clips at the front. you can see that each of the springy clips has a fat side and a thinner side, this matches up to a fat spot on the bottom of the bracket of the INNER pad. since they are symmetrical, it should only go one way with the large tab facing outward. i cant remember if its top or bottom. but it will be the same. since the fat side down, with the tab outward, will match the bracket in one spot. my GUESS is that each of the spring tabs goes at the bottom of the bracket. since the fatter base must be there to have the tab facing away from the rotor.

then opposite that goes the thin, tabless clips to the left of them.

same goes for the front clips. with each tab facing outward, the fat/thin sides should only line up one way, again, my guess being at the bottom of the bracket.

i really hope that made sense, cuz reading over it i'm not so sure lol.

my guess to the lack of spring clips on the front is that the anti-rattle springs serve the purpose, but i didnt put mine on cuz i couldnt get them to stay

-Nick

That made sense, but was confusing (lol) because the z-shaped anti-rattle spring goes in the hole in the INNER pad... I thought...?

OK, here's what I've got:

First off, my kit contents is the same as the pic you grabbed from the blackdragon site:
Two z-springs
Two wide silver spring-loaded clips (1 left, 1 right),
Two wide copper left-handed tabbed clips,
Two wide copper right-handed tabbed clips,
Two thinner copper symmetrical clips

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...f/P8310032.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...f/P8310031.jpg


Here's how things are currently installed on my car:
With pads in place (note z-spring on INNER pad), left front wheel:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...f/P8310034.jpg

Pads removed, outer position: One thin copper symetrical clip at top, one wide tabbed copper clip at bottom.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...f/P8310035.jpg

Pads removed, inner position: Two thin copper symmetrical clips.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...f/P8310036.jpg

So, my current hardware is quite diferent from the kit contents.

Adding to the confusion, the parts fiche for the 80 front brakes shows the following:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...stuff/FSM2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...tuff/80fsm.jpg

Only SIX clips per side shown in the picture, though 8 are called out in the parts numbers. For left side:
Two "Clip A, LH", which look to be the top, symmetrical, untabbed clips
One "Clip B, LH" on the bottom inside, very unclear in the drawing; may or may not be the silver spring-loaded clip.
One "Clip" on the bottom outside, which LOOKS to maybe be the spring-loaded silver clip.
The Z-shaped anti-rattle spring, which in this pic shows the tang oriented toward the hole in the inner pad - - or maybe not. I'm no longer so sure. But if the spring goes on the outer pad, what keeps the other end from ripping up the piston seal?

And to top it off, the photos in the the FSM are completely useless with regard to this; too dark, too low resolution, and no mention is made of the clips at all in the removal or installation instructions. It MIGHT show the z-spring in the outer pad, but I honestly can't tell. Even my paper copy is illegiable.

So, the key questions at this point are:

1) Does the anti-rattle spring tang pin into the inner, or outer, pad?

2) Does the silver spring-loaded clip go on the outside (as the fiche seems to show) or the inside?

3) Why does the kit seem to differ from the parts fiche?

4) Why does my installed hardware bear almost no resemblance to the kit contents?

I've looked at later-year parts fiches; they all use the same drawing.

Such a simple, basic thing... and no docs anywhere, lol.

Add: after staring at the above for a while, I can only see one way I can reconcile the parts in the kit, with the parts listed in the fiche. Like so:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...P8310032-1.jpg

( May have the lefts and rights crossed in the pic, but I was concerned with matching quantities )

If this is right, then that means the callout locations in the picture in the parts fiche is confused.

Suggestions?

well, i'll be damned. i may have mine on wrong. i guess its staying that way. ive delt with the brakes on this car too many times. i did pull the old hardware off one at a time i thought.

and i guess you have to bend the tab on the rattle spring into the other pad hole? maybe thats why mine wouldnt stay....

i'll pull a wheel this later this morning

I didn't think it mattered which pad the pin of the Z spring went into as long as it was there... It's funny, I've had Fb's for over 10 years and have done brakes at least a dozen times or more and this thread is still making my head spin lol.

After giving it some thought and looking again at the FSM page you posted I agree with that, and that is how my car is. The spring clip (clip b) is on the outer bottom, the clip a's go on teh top and "clip" goes on the innter bottom.

Why the hardware on your car is different is hard to say. Did you ever replace calipers on this car that might have come with the wrong stuff for some reason?

I'm not at all sure that the Z-spring goes in the rear pad, at this point. The fiche drawing is ambiguous. I am sure that it only connects to one pad, though... and that you don't need to reshape it. It's clearly designed to push whichever pad it's attached to away from the disc, by pressing against the opposite side of the caliper.

The unclear part is which pad needs that push-back; the outer, or inner?


I've never replaced the calipers, but I did pull all the hardware off about 8 years ago to paint them. I'm fairly sure that the clip set that's on the car was a replacement set, purchased at least 10 years ago via Trak Auto (which no longer exists), and I have no earlier pictures from which to work.

Both the Petersen and Chilton aftermarket manuals are no help; one only shows the (very different) design of the 79 brakes, which used wedges, and the other just copies Mazda's pictures. Lazy bastards.

I'm going to try matching your layout, & see how everything fits. Only good part about problems like this is it's not hard to swap stuff around - - which ironically is why problems like this happen in the first place, heh.

I found a much clearer scan of the official Mazda diagram, in another book published in 1987:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ake_detail.jpg

If anything, it increases confusion... as it seems to show spring-loaded clips at the bottom of both the inner AND outer pads. That would require twice as many as are in the kit.

It does make me lean harder to the z-spring-goes-to-inner-pad school of thinking, though, when referenced to the photo of the spring itself.

Still clear as mud.

I have a crystal-clear drawing of the (mechanically different) '79 front brake assembly; in that picture, the z-spring looks to clearly attach to the inner pad.

If I'm able to look at my FB tonight I'll see how the clips are on mine. We haven't had power for 4+ days because of the hurricane though so not sure how much light i will have to work with lol.
As for the z spring, you're correct it only goes into one pad, the other half of it presses up against the caliper once it is on. No need to rebend or modify it at all. Which pad it goes into is still in question though, and honestly I never paid much attention to that, so I might have it wrong too lol.
99% sure the rest of the clips are right on mine, I'll see what I find.

Oh, one thing I would like to add, a while back, maybe 5 or so years ago, I bought a set of cheap pads to throw on my car and they wouldn't fit. The pad itself was just a hair too big - the "tab" piece of the pad itself was too tall and didn't fit into teh caliper bracket. Nothing a few seconds with a grinder didn't fix, but my point is that the aftermarket stuff, especially for a car this old is not always 100% spot on to factory specs. It's possible your pads have the exact opposite problem and are just a hair too small... Just a thought.

my extremely confusing post was correct, as to how i thought my clips were arranged. idk if thats how they came from the factory tho. but as we all know a picture is worth a thousand words.

passengers side front brake:

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...a/IMG_0516.jpg

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...a/IMG_0517.jpg

both this style of clip.

lower inner pad clip is the spring one:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...a/IMG_0519.jpg

and old hardware arranged in the order that its on the car, again, for the passengers side:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...a/IMG_0524.jpg

again, i dont know if thats how it was in 1981, but i pulled the old hardware off one at a time. and i dont remember thinking it was weird.

so, it works for me. However, i know small things like this can be pretty costly when competing for "best 1st gen" title.

maybe someone else has a more correct setup.

-Nick

@ Nick;

Thanks for the pix!

Lol... nothing to do with competition for prizes here, sir... I'm just tired of my pads 'clunking' when coming off a dead stop, or when reversing direction - - and as always very interested in making sure things are working 100% properly. Goes double for brakes, in my book.

The lack of the sprung clip looks to be a good possibility for the culprit.

Possibly the key to silent operation is as simple as a combination; sprung clip can be inner or outer, so long as the z-spring is on the opposite pad.

I'm working to come up with a mechanical explanation of which pad is better served by the z-spring, based on how the brake calipers and pads actually move. Not quite there yet.

@82transam: short pads were actually the first thing I suspected, given the way the pad backings are usually just stamped out or flame-cut, and not smooth on the ends.

I had them off a few weeks back (when repainting wheels) and calipered them; they are within a thousandth of an inch or so from the manufacturing spec for the pad backing I got from several pad makers. Not enough variance to make for the amount of noise I was seeing.

That's why I went down the "new hardware kit" direction - - thought maybe they'd lost temper & weren't providing enough spring action any more.

I've had problems with oversize pads on other cars before, so I know what you mean. My 91 Camaro, seems like every set I ever bought were too large in the tabs.

my pads dont move around and i dont have the z spring. the claw jaw thing that move the pad on the outer side seem to hold it in place nicely with shims for them to grip. the z spring i think would better served on the outer pad, since the opposite side isnt split. the piston side is solid, so the spring has more grab area. but like i said, im fine without it. at least for now. i still have them on a shelf in the garage in case i need them at some point

anyway, glad i could help

-Nick

wow, you've got a good puzzle!

i looked in the FSM, and its got the same picture as the parts fische!

since the spring is on the inboard pad in every pic, i would do that. IIRC it was installed in the way that makes it hardest to put the thing together....

also from the fische, it seems like each pad gets a slider (2) and a spring holderinner (clip A), but this makes clip B the odd man out (or in german, das weirdedclippenspringin)

maybe B counters the Z spring?

where did you get your kit? mazda?

This kit's a Carlberg-Warren, bought through Rock Auto - - pretty reliable make, from past experience.

The provided clips do seem to match the (tiny) picture on the Mazdatrix site, which is supposed to be an OEM Mazda kit... at 3x the price. Plus credit card surcharge.

There seems to be general agreement of what clips should be provided between the pics from Black Dragon, the kit from Rock Auto, and the pix from Mazdatrix. It's the FSM/fiche/Mazda drawings that don't seem to agree with them - - even though the fiche parts list (on the same page of the fiche) does.

And of course my mounted hardware agrees with none of them. :icon_no2:

I'm going to strip my old hardware and install the new, trying the various arrangements suggested in the thread so far. I suspect that they will at minimum work better than what I have now.

My best mechanical analysis on the z-spring so far runs as follows:

Spring tang in hole on inner pad: the spring tension pushes the inner pad away from the disc surface, and pushes it back against the piston face, applying leverage between the outer caliper flanges and the piston. This would prevent any separation from forming between the piston face and the pad backing, and since it is pressing the pad against the moveable piston face, would also tend to try to 'open' the caliper.

Spring tang in hole on outer pad: the spring tension pushes against the inner flange of the caliper above the piston, and thus presses the outer pad against the outer flanges of the caliper, preventing any gap from forming between them. It also tends to push the pad away from the disk surface, but since it is creating leverage between the fixed outer flanges and the inner flange of the caliper, it does not exert any opening pressure upon the piston; the spring has no influence on caliper opening.

:scratch:

just checked my haynes manual. it has 2 pictures clearly showing the z-spring inserted into the INNER pad. but it connects to something on the calipers bracket. the haynes manual showing a 79 model car. so, maybe we dont use the z-spring on our year. cuz i could not get that sucker to stick to anything.

my guess is that maybe the sticky out tabs for the outer pad in my setup provide enough tension on the pad, while the jaws or whatever keep it from moving around.

idk.

before you get it all apart, move the rotor back and forth by hand and see if you cant determine which pad is moving, then arrange hardware as needed. just keep trying arrangements till they dont move.

Pretty much my plan; that's why I haven't taken the psg side apart yet.

Progress report; wireless from the garage:

The z-spring has to go into the inner pad; if you install it in the outer pad, the arm that pushes against the caliper interferes with the piston's seal.

Label that part "solved."

So, here's the initial arrangement I'm going to use.

Outside:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...f/P9010001.jpg

Inside:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...f/P9010002.jpg

Anti-Rattle (Z-) Spring connected to inner pad.

It'll be a couple days before I have the wheels back on and can test, but just based on rotating the disk while pressing the pads, it seems to show much less motion.

More after testing.

keep us updated.

once this all gets sorted out this needs to be archived lol.

it all seems so simple....

-Nick

The devil is always in the details....

...and it's ALL details!

Test drive complete; brakes are silent.

So, the proper layout is:

Spring clip on outer bottom
Tabbed clips on both upper positions, one of each type (L and R)
Simple clip on inner bottom
Anti-rattle spring (z-spring) with tang in hole on top of inner pad

Book'em, Danno.:nod:


Now, if I can just figure out why my clutch is squeaking...