not sure if i should do this..
 

Was talking with a co-worker about my timing issue, (since it still pings no matter how you set the timing) and he suggested taking the dizzy out and turning it back one or two teeth. it makes sense, but for some reason I DON'T see it being a good idea because of the two vacuum pods and trailing timing? thoughts?

Read the haynes manual. There is a dot on the gear that is supposed to be lined up with a line of metal. You need to turn the engine by hand to get it in to position. Follow the directions, its very straight forward.

Always and foremost with all questions regarding performance and driveability, please list the following as completely as you can:

Year:
Model:
Engine: [if swapped]
Miles: [engine and chassis if they aren't the same]
Any Modifications:
Any Recent Work:
When did the condition begin: [did any events happen, new tank of gas, recent work falls under this as well]
What happens exactly: [describe in as much detail as possible what you hear, feel etc.]
When does the condition happen: [all the time, cold start, hot start, heavy acceleration, all the time]
Any other symptoms: [rough idle, hard start, fouled plugs, smoke, smells etc.]

This helps those who can't see the car in person get a better visual of whats going on.

First is of course make sure the dizzy is perfectly lined up and stabbed then the engine is revved to the correct RPMs so that the vac advance and mechanical are in full swing and make sure the timing is correct there.

As well since it sounds like you've taken the dizzy off a few times to re-time it, make sure your cap and rotor are clean, plugs, wires and coils are in good shape, the magnetic pickup under the cap, rotor and dust cap isn't bent or too dirty as that can affect timing and spark "performance"

it's a 85 first gen, stock. odometer says 190k but I'm pretty sure the engine is not the original - can't prove it though.

the all connections are clean.I haven't puled the dizzy completely out yet. It's pinged since i had the car, and does it under any sort of load in any gear, very rarely in first, but i don't get much over 2k in first anyhow.

Starts pinging at around 3k rpm unless i baby the pedal. 4th gear wont go over 4k rpm period and 5th wont go over 3500 rpm (unless I'm going downhill)

it makes the usual marbles in a tin can sound, quiet at first then if you keep pushing it it sounds like a monkey with a hammer.

The exhaust smells a little oily, but nothing to bad I don't think.

occasionally it idles a little rough, you can hear and feel it bounce between roughly 800 and 1000 rpm.

Starts easy but is fairly cold blooded, plugs are new.

Have you checked for spark on all 4 plugs?? if you have good fire and your timing is correct you could have alot of chrome flaked off your rotor housings causing this issue. new engine time...

I'm assuming it's not timed right - I'm getting good spark on all 4 at the moment. after i get through that stage then I'll figure out if it is indeed the internals. I'm in the market to rebuild a motor for it also, but i'd like to get as much life out of this one as I can. I've been told by someone who knows the car before the PO had it re-smog equipped that it used to haul ass, as he puts it.

Then what I would do is download the Factory Service Manual or a Haynes, get all the instructions on specifically how to line up and stab the dizzy and re-time it, and go ahead and yank the dizzy and re-time it from scratch.

Um, have you actually checked the timing with a timing light?

There is always the possibility that the ignition is wired wrong, with something crossed over. This can result in the leading ignitor firing the trailing plugs, and vice versa. This actually happened to me once (don't ask me how) and it was impossible to tune the pinging out. The way I discovered what was going on was by unplugging the leading ignitor, and found that my leading plugs were still sparking. :(

I would check that out before pulling the dizzy. Otherwise you're just taking shots in the dark, and might be creating more problems for yourself along the way.

Good luck... :)




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I'll give that a shot first, but yes I've used a timing light. as odd as it sounds, there is no audible or driveable difference to the timing unless you turn the dizzy as far to the left as you can. trailing timing makes some difference, but barely.


I'm almost 100% positive the ignition is wired right, as it had second gen ignition set up when i got it and i put everything back to stock.

i had this issue once. i had the timing advance pretty far and after a while it starting pinging. each time i retarded the timing it didn't stop. then i decided to start pulling plugs and come to find out i had damaged the trailing plugs(broke ceramic around the center electrode). once i replaced all the plugs, it solved the problem. i never ran it that far advanced again.

so as it turns out it ended up being one of my ignitors. if i unplug the one on the left of the dizzy as you are standing at the drivers fender, it stops and I all of a sudden have a much more powerful car! i also unplugged the vac advance, but i need to reconnect it and see if it was also a part of it - it seemed like it was also advancing it a little to far.


also, about the ignitor. if i unplug it while the car is idling there is no difference in running. if i unplug the other one, it stutters...... shouldn't it stutter if i unplug either of them?

No, not really. The trailing ignition is basically there to clean up emisisons and smooth things out just a bit. It's possible to run without trailing ignition entirely and not see much of a difference. I unhooked my trailing ignition for one of my dyno runs just to see what it would do. The difference was so small that it was within the margin of error of the dyno machine (so, effectively no difference or so little that it doesn't matter).

Do the unplug-ignitor test again, but when you do it this time, check which plugs are sparking each time. With one out, only both bottom plugs should fire, with the other out only the top plugs should fire and it should run very very roughly. If you're getting any combination other than that, your wires are on wrong somehow. But a bad ignitor can definitely do it. I had a bad ignitor on my leading, so I swapped my leading and trailing ignitors and ran like that (with a blown trailing ignitor) for almost a full season before I got around to picking up some spares.

Jon

you dont need to unplug anything....just hook up the timing light. dead ignitor = no flash

on a stock port. with the P port the trailing does more like 50%, it won't idle without it. it'll idle fine without the leading though.

+1.

Will do tomorrow after work. i'm almost positive both are still firing with it being unplugged, but i'll double check.

On top of that, you still need to verify which ignitor is firing which plugs. They could be reversed, which will definitely cause your described condition. ;)

+1 I recently had a look at a used 83 GS that "ran great" but was wired L1 to the top left plug, L2 to the bottom left plug, T1 to the top right plug, and T2 to the bottom right plug.(from cap to plugs) It did what you were describing too. :nod: Oddly, it started up and idled like the ignition wasnt totally ass backwards and sideways. But when you let the engine free rev, I noticed a few very rough places in the mid range, and while the car was driving it pinged around and drove like a turd.

Ive met a lot of backyard mechanics that refer the rear rotor as the "trailing" rotor. And that just comes from not understanding the ignition (or engine) at all.

Also, when I see 2nd gen coils it raises a red flag.

To clear all that up, its possible that the last owner (presumably the guy who did the 2nd gen ignition) may have messed something up in the dizzy. You know those two wires (one green, one red) that lead to each of the pickups in the dizzy? (under rotor button and plate). The red is negative while the green is positive. That throws a lot of MSD and direct fire guys off. Make sure nobody has tampered with those.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I were to switch the coil wires going to the dizzy, that would reverse the ignitor's?

And I'll definitely check that out, Wankel.

if ur referring to the wires that carry spark to the cap, the answer is no. all that does is switch the leading and trailing around. totally separate to the wiring of the ignitors.

Wait. FB ignitors had color keyed harness connectors.... One is blue while the other is white. If my memory doesnt fail me, the blue harness connector went to the ignitor facing the radiator, while the white connector attached to the one facing the alt. :scratch:

Ill have to look into this, but im almost sure. Anyone else notice them being different colors?

Oh, and I remember the harness attached to the ignitors being long enough to easily interchange, which could really lead to confusion. Just pull back the weather sleeves on the ingnitor harness clips, and check the colors. Its easy enough to unhook them from there and switch.

Whew.... FB ignition....

Yellow/blue is leading, Yellow/green is trailing. Each should connect to the appropriate ignitor and to the negative terminal on the appropriate coil. Front ignitor is leading, the one facing alternator is trailing. If all 4 plugs are really firing when one ignitor is unplugged, your wiring is incorrect. A picture or 2 of your distributor and coil wiring would be helpful.

Yeah, yellow and blue, and yellow and green. the blue one is in the right spot, but now I'm curious if the black and white wires got switched, since it had second gen ignition set up when i got it.

There are several places where the wires could be crossed:

1. Spark plug wires mixed up
2. Ignitor plugs switched around
3. Wiring from ignitor to the coil could be wrong (wiring from lead ignitor going to trailing coil)
4. Wire from coil to dizzy cap wrong

And there is probably one or two other things I'm forgetting at the moment.

Go over every step of the wiring to make sure it is correct, or do what I said long ago and unplug one ignitor and see which plugs still spark. If you unplug the leading ignitor, and the leading plugs are still firing, then you have found your issue. Same goes for the trailing ignitor. A very simple test that will save you much troubleshooting and really narrow things down quickly. :)

Do they have butt connectors on them? electrical tape and solder? Its possible that those are your only problem.

You know the correct plug wire arrangement right? Check all of that and then also have a look at the surfaces on the back of the ignitor. Take them off and clean them up with some white lithium grease, then reinstall them with a generous amount of dielectric grease.