No timing signal or spark when plugs are in engine
 

Well here is the thing i have not had the car on the road for some time now because i have been trying to do some well needed body work. But i have been trying to crank it here and there to keep things moving. Well last time i went out to crank it the leading j109 was shot, no signal period. so instead of trying to get some or borrow one i decided to do the HEI swap. I did and still it would not crank, so i thought i might have my wiring screwed up.. So i took the plug wires loose and they were sparking like crazy. So i hooked them to the plugs and tried cranking it NOTHING. I grabbed my timing light to see if i had spark and NOTHING on the leading. pulled the wires off and they spark. I know your going to say my light is bad, but NO the trailing is firing and the light flashes. Now with this happening im getting a bit confused, i grabbed a spare plug put it to L1 plug wire laid it on the car and had the timing light on it too, it spraked and the light flashed, so i took the plug and replaced my L1. I tried cranking it with the timing light onL1 with the other plug and NOTHING WTF can any one give me any idea of what might be happening here. I have been working on this car for years now and im about to the point of saying F#*K IT


thanks for any help

If you have a spare dist rotor put it on and try it again.

I might be able to get a hold of a different distributor but i cant figure out why a plug wire and plug laying in front of the windshield will spark and my timing light will work but once its screwed in to the motor it will not fire and the light wont work and reason for this

Just install a different rotor and see if it fires, not the whole dist. You are going to have to go with me on this one. :-)

are you say just the rotor is self, the piece that pulls off?? or are you talking about the piece that screws on and triggers the pick ups ??? Because on the leading im not even going through the distributor cap

Yes, just the Dist rotor, I only know of one dist rotor. The part you are refeering to is the trigger wheel. :-)

Did not make a difference. I dont know what the hell is going on, if i pull L1 plug out of the motor and lay it on the fender with plug wire L1 is sparks, put it back in the motor and no spark WTF. I cant figure it out, the trailing works fine.

I am going to have to say that maybe your ignitor is too weak to fire thru the system properly.
I recommend that you either swap out the ignitors(trailling to leading) or just disconnect the direct fire and use the stock trailing coil to see if she will fire.

Put the trailing plugs and wires into the leading and see if it starts up. Just swap the dizzy to the plug wires, but don't connect the "new" trailing. That should start it, if it doesn't, then I dont know lol.

Guys i have tried it all, i have spent 3 evenings trying to switch things around, im not just jumping on here with a problem with out trying to figure it out my self. i have switched from stock setup to the HEI setup, tried all the J109s i have swapped plug wires on the cap (without hooking up the trailng). I have tested all my grounds and circuits, swapped rotor button and cap, bought new plugs and wires and coils and still no matter how it is hooked up everything works fine laying on the fender but will not spark in the motor. The only thing left try is a different distributor all together, im doing that this afternoon and will let you know how it goes

Are you sure the new plug wires aren't dislodging the cap when the plugs are in the engine?

DLIDFIS the plugs are not coming from the distributor cap. im not stupid, i have tried troubleshooting this myself and found nothing wrong, and figured some one might give me some useful advice. like i said before there is spark on the circuit outside the combustion chamber but once inside the combustion chamber NOTHING

Try disconnecting the trailing or leading side(does not matter which) ignitor and test for spark at the engine with just the one side hooked up.

ok i will try that tomorrow. you think that they could be interfering with one another?

I have only had this happen once to me. No one else on this forum besides myself that I know of has had a similar problem that your are having and that I had.

I spent 2 weeks diagnosing until with the help of some old mazda factory gurus traced the problem to a bad dist rotor. A rotor that was only 6 months old. What was happening was the rotor was grounding thru the dist and would not allow fire to both leading and trailing at the same time.

When I disconnected the leading side plugs from the engine it would fire. When I had all 4 hooked up I had no spark to anything.
I only discovered this because I was doing a compression test again just to make sure. I had the plugs out but had not remembered to disconnect the trailing side ignition and fuel. The engine started and ran until I put all the plugs back in.

ITS ALIVE

Well i decided to pull the car outside (literally drag it with my truck) in the dark and see where i was shorting out. I could not see anything but could hear a popping and then decided to pull the cap off. It was arching between the pickups and the body of the rotor button, tried changing rotor buttons one more time and still the same thing. WEIRD. well i got a distributor from sam (bad83). I marked which way the arrow was pointing, pulled the old one out and dropped the other one in. put it back to stock setup hooked up the plugs and wires. turned the key and within seconds it fired up no choke. It was touching LOL it revs nicly and idles SMOOTHER then ever. not sure what the deal is with that other distributor but its headed for the trash can.

rx7doctor did you ever figure out why yours had a similar problem before?? Mine was slightly different but the same basic concept. thanks for the help and advice

and thanks sam for the distributor i owe you one

Just glad to hear it worked. You know the last time I had run into a similar problem where someone (that we shall leave nameless) was trying to do a DLIDFIS and fried the trailing pickup in their dizzy. We'll work something out :D.

Mine was just a defective rotor that somehow starting grounding thru to the dist. It sound like your magnetic pickup in the dist was shorting out. Too much resistance in the pick up assembly. Have seen this in early model Toyotas but not in out cars.

Glad you got her back up and running.

Don't throw the dizzy in the trash. Give it to me. :)

By the way, I like your idea for testing spark plugs on the windshield, letting it ground against the wiper arm.

Im not literally going to throw it away, it will go on the shelf with all the other parts that im not using right now, its a BIG shelf lol

Guys
Sounds something like my problem but I have no spark anywhere. I was going to buy a new cap and rotor today but was quoted a ridiculous price 100 + ?? Is that right ?? For some history, I reinstalled the rebuilt streetport 12a lasr october and didn't get to fire it up till march when it got warm. I have some added issues because the engine is in the back (antifreeze burping and can't do the windsheild trick)I was coming along nicely until last week my buddy came out to play with the screws on the Holley and we couldn't get it fire- no spark. The dist is the only thing that hadn't been replaced so I decided on the gm hei direct fire. Any ideas would be appreciated so speak up if you think something. And special thanks to Jeff20b for the diagrams and such, it's priceless.

Kevin

Two questions...
Is there some way to test the triggers?? Multimeter??? I can do that

If i'm wondering if the rotor is bad .. I don't need the trailing ign for it to fire so with dfddlis ?? I on't need the rotor in there. I culd pull it out to see if If I get spark???


Kevin

Rockauto.com sells cap and rotor for about $20-30...
Stu Aull
80GS
Alaska