The Nitrous Thread
 

First off if I missed something or I got a lil mixed up on my info please correct me. This is a copy of my sticky over on the honda forums so disregard any talk of pistons and such.

He is my original thread
http://www.g1teg.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=25621

And here is teh info I have.

Hearing alot of people asking questions about nitrous use on different forums so hear is a quickie I made up.

First you must know what Nitrous does in the combustion process, and how it affects AFRs and EGTs.

A good link to view
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question259.htm

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/framed...ib/nitrous.htm

N0 is an oxidizer, which means it adds more air to the combustion chamberand cools intake temps. The cooler the air the more dense it is, the more dense it is the more you can put into the combustion chamber. But it also makes you engine run leaner, so there are other things that need to be done to ensure you dont burn up valves, pistons, or blow the welds on your intake j/k Laughing

Also movies like the slow and the courious have made the use of nitrous seem unsafe, unaffordable and damaging to your engine. But one must understand that adding any significant amount of power will lower the life of your engine. And the more and more power you add the shorter the lifespan of the engine. But lets not forget that if you have ever been to a dentist that laughing gas is just medical grade N0.

Why Nitrous over a turbo setup.

For the most part a nitrous system has a cheaper startup cost, its cheap to get a bottle refilled, the kits are upgrade able for more power and with proper tuning can create awsome power.

Dry kits are your cheapest way of getting on the sqeeze. This kit injects nitrous directly into your intake without a mixture of fuel added to it. These kits are fine for about 50hp increase, are easy to install. But atleast go out and buy a cheap narrow band AFR gauge with this setup. To much nitrous and you could start to detonate, which could eventually destroy your engine. Remember a proper working setup that produces less power for longer, is cheaper than running at max power for a little bit then having to rebuild. I would also recomend a SAFC(apexi) to control the amount of fuel being injected into your engine again its cheap insurance.

Next is you wet kits. They inject nitrous and fuel at the same time into the intake and makes more power than the dry kit, and they are alot safer on the motor. But again dont be cheap. That extra fuel is good but it could also stress ot your stock fuel pump. So go ahead and put a fuel pump and a narrow band, and a SAFC on your budget when buying the kit.

Direct port or fogger is up now. Mush like the wet kit but now there are the same number of nozzels as there are cylinders(or more depending on how big and bad you want to be). This system also injects fuel at the same time as nitrous, but instead of having one nozzle in the intake pipe, or on the intake mani, each nozzle is placed at the port opening facing the valve. As far as the fuel and electronics are concerned on this kit I would spring the extra cash on a wideband, bigger fuel pump, ou could run a piggy back with bigger injectors and try and tune with it but if you already put down this much money go ahead and at least get a cheaper standalone. Again safer is more expensive to start but pays for itself 1000xs over.

Direct injection is next. Kits that are direct injection are nitrous nozzles that go on the end of a fuel injector. This kit directly inject nitrous into the cumbustion chamber. But again the same safty measures are here agian, but I would also recomend going full standalone, bigger injectors, and a wideband instead of narrowband. These kits offer the most power at the greatest cost. So do it right and do it the first time.

Again one of the biggest mistakes about using a nitrous kit is not doing supporting mods. Also tuning helps in building more power safly in the engine and fuel systems capablities. The safer the setup the longer the motor lasts, and that means the more fun you get to have. One item I did not mention above was the addition of a boost gauge. This is to keep an eye on the intake manifold pressure, and again it is just for insurance.

Also another way people are ruining motors is because they do not follow the instilation instruction.

DRILLING AND TAPPING THE INTAKE MANIFOLD WHILE IT IS ON THE CAR IS A BAD IDES DO NOT DO IT. Intake gaskets are cheap enough go out nd buy one remove the intake and then drill and tap you holes for the nozzles. Then make sure that all of the shavings are out of the manifold before you put it back on. It only takes one metal shaving to ruin a motor.

Also make sure you install your bottle corectly bolt it down securly and with the correct bracket. All of the bottles syphin from the bottom of the tank. And having the tank correctly installed insures you are getting the most out of your fill.

When you run your lines, run them correctly. Make sure they are secured correctly not draging the ground if you run them externally, and if you run them inside make sure they are not going to get tangled up in your feet when driving. And like all wiring use gromets when going through the firewall.

If you want to you can spend a lil bit more money and make your system alot better. You first upgrade should be a bottle warmer, this will improve your consistantcy(sp), next I would say would be a remote bottle opener, nothing is worse than going through the fumble ruitine trying to get into your trunk and open your bottle.

Note on purging your system. This is so that you know that there isnt any air in your lines. You dont have to go all imma waste my fill on a 10sec showoff. Ususally purging takes less than 2 seconds. Also where your purge lines is up to you. The center of the windshield is a good place to run your line, that or a wheel well. I have run my line strait down the firewall and out the bottom of the car for a less obvious purge.

As far as nitrous being cheating. It isnt, it is a type of forced induction and just because you didnt spend 10k for the extra power dosnt mean it is cheating. There is really no way to hide a system. Bottles are big(except for the sneaky pete) there are various valves , switches, nozzles lines. If they cannot figure out your a running the juice after looking at your car before a race then either they are really stupid, or totally have no understanding of the system.

nfo on stages:

This is something I have not dealt to much with myself, and I do not know many that do so Ill try to explain it the best I can. If I am wrong please do correct me this is something I have been wanting to learn about.

A dual stage set up usually consists of 2 wet kits, or 2 direct port, or a direct injection system with one of the other system, or any combo of the three. And depending on how much nitrous and fuel you are going to throw at that bad boy you may need 2 fuel pumps, on for the car, and one for the nitrous systems.

The system basically works like this. You have a smaller shot in the beginning say a 75 wet as your first stage. Well you find that when racing a certain oponent that this shot is not big enough, you reach over flick a switch to arm, turn on the secondary fuel pump, and prime the secondary system say a 125 direct port. You lay down on you second stage without lifting you first, this in turn gives you the equvilant of a 200 shot. Thats about the best way I can explain that.

This system also takes the most tuning to get right. A wideband. standalone, fuel system upgrade, ignition upgrade, and all the other supporting systems, not to mention dyno time, and a ton of tuning to get right. This is one you dont want to skimp on, staged systems can reach up into the 500hp or above range at the push of a button.

I am sorry I dont have any more info on this Ill try googling it later today.

Again if something is wrong please correct it, and I will do the following in my original thread, no use in spreading wrong info.

too much reading. please summarize it. thank you. :)

Summerize= more fuel+boost+fuelmanagment+gauges=safe motor.

I read about half of it.. I don't see any information about carburated setups.. are you aware this is the 1st gen section?

And actually, if you do anything more than a 50 or 100shot, it can be cheaper to go with a turbo setup.. i did my honda for $500, paid $100 for dyno tuning from a very well experienced tuner

Well I was gonna post this in the second gen section and then I remembered that they are all mostly high school kids that dont understand half of what I wrote, then they would ask stupid questions before they read the thread. Then people would fight about who is right and wrong and whos ecock is the biggest.

So I brought it here cause you first gen guys are the shit, and seeing how I got a first gen teg I just cant keep away from the first gens lol.

As far as carbed systems here we go.

Basically all that was described above would work on a carbed motor except for the replacement of bigger injectors for bigger jets, and you wouldnt have a stand alone computer.

Thier are plae systems avalible that put more fuel and nitrous, or just nitrous down your intake right below the carb. But this system will not work on a stock intake and carb because it dosnt fit, but if you have a RB intake and a holley carb it will.

You can still use direct port, wet kits, and all the others as you would as stated above, but tuning may take a lil bit longer.

As far as the turbo thing. If the system is done correctly you will do less damage with nitrous as you would with a turbo. turbo is constant wear and tear, nitrous is every once and a while. I will not go to the point and say one is better than the other, they both have there advantages and disadvantages, and its different strokes for different folks.

I picked up my wet kit for my teggy for 350$ after tax, it was brand new NAPA ordered it for a guy but he never picked it up, so I liucked out there. It is good for around 150hp and under the right tuning it will do fine with lil or no damage to my motor.

I could have went(still might)go turbo, but I would have paid that much for just the turbo and manifold. So I went this route for now.

What you wrote was much appriated concidering i was thinking about going nitrous on my 12a and i was a little confused about the whole matter. I usually only deal with normally aspirated engines. It seems like weve had too many highschool kids on the first gen section lately. I cant even get a response about my emissions problems. Can we have a baby forum where we can send ppl when they as stupid questions? I.E body kits..

Ive bumped the idea of a n00b section for quie awhile now, but apparntly showing off to the n00bs when half the time people are wrong is more important.

So, what kind of fuel pressure does the nitrous system need? Will my carter 8 pound be enough to run the engine and fuel for nitrous or should I just go with another fuel pump? I plan on using a wet 50 shot, possibly bumping it up to 75 later on down the road.

Btw, if you do add some things about carbed nitrous i think this thread should be either archived into the FAQ Page.

Was there a time when you could come to this site and get information and not stupid responses?

yes, a "New Owner" section would be pretty good. Or a high school section.

How about NOS on the track or auto-x course? How many times would you have to refill it during the day? How would you activate it when you're anywhere other than a strait line? You wouldn't want 150hp coming on mid- corner. It may be good for street racing or drag cars, but I just don't see it happening in my car anytime in the future.

~b.k.

I ran a y right before my stock fuel pump on my set up on one of my FBs and ran a seperate inline fuel pump I got off of a cavalier. It supported the system nicely. I heard that this is what you have to do on carbed setups, whether or not there is any truth to this I am not sure, but that is how I ran mine.

I am pretty sure you cannot run nitrous on a track day or auto-x so I am not sure how you would go about that.

OK cool, so just use a smaller engine's EFI pump. I have also seen what looks to be pumps (little round black things) on some kits. Is that what they are, or if I just build my own system, would it be just simpler/cheaper? I am not exactly sure what all I really need. I know I need the lines for the nitrous and some sort of WOT switch (what would be a good source for one of these) and of course the bottle and a bottle blanket (I would only run it at the drag strip and I would have a good 45 minutes between each run). What other safety items would I need to purchase?

i take offense to that.. i just graduated 15 days ago- 3 years of autoshop from a very good teacher, and going to UTI with about $10k in automotive scholarships. big words do not confuse me :fawk:

And don't take me wrong if I come off like a dick, you posted very useful info, since I never knew much about nos. But, I could argue all day that a turbo can be more efficient and even less harmful to a motor. But I get bored arguing after a while, especially on the internet.

your not always in boost. for daily driving at half throttle and shifting under 3k (about 2.2k for me to save on gas :icon_tup: ) you will probably never see boost. freeway is a maybe with a small turbo and if you've got a car full of people- seen it happen lol.

all the school "racer" type people were on the way to a local high school drag event, and my buddies civic with a tiny ass KKK turbo, and 2 +200lb guys in the back, was boosting 0-2lbs (cruising @ half throttle!) he whole way to the track. lol

Yes the saying "highschool racers" is prolly not a good way to put it because it does stereotype everoyne from highschool, even the ones that do know what they are talking about. But look at me, im just out of highschool...a year now...and i look back and i shiver because i know that for almost 6 months of my life all i ever wanted was to put a body kit on my civic, and lambo doors...god was i stupid.

"yeah your civic might have a body kit, sparco racing seats, labo doors, a 6000 dollar paint job, graphics and cool looking lights that shine on the ground at night but your moms escort will beat you in the quatermile"

Rather than calling them highschool racers, i would rather see them being called noobs until they have proved themselves, as for me, i have never had anything of mine in the shop. You teach yourself, if you cant rebuild an engine then you shouldnt even concider yourself a car enthusiast or mechanic.

Oh so your saying with a quick spooling turbo that you wouldnt have any low end boost, um i think thats incorrect. It all depends on the size of the turbo, where its wastegate is set at, how much cfm its pushing, and the size of the motor. Certain turbos would definatly spool more near the 2000 rpms if they were tuned to do so. So in my opinion, seeing that i always shift at 5 grand, i think it is constant wear and tear. 0-60 shifting at 2 k would prolly take me 2 minutes in my rx7 :D

yeah, not EVERYBODY from high school is an idiot about cars. just most.

yea now that i think about it, most of the kids into cars at my highschool are quite noobish.

one kid paid $800 to have a chromed out and rebuilt motor swapped into his car.. and i dont know of who's a honda guy, but it's a D-series so he basically paid $700 too much.......

another kid is rollin in an old fox-body mustang, it's turbo'd as well.. too bad its just a 4 cylinder mustang

Ok well I didnt mean to come off rude(which I am most of the time). By high schooler I mean the kid that wants to put a 20b in his Fc for 800$ is this possible threads. Thats what I basically meant

First off I'd like to say this:

Don't be afaraid of N20! It gets a bad rap from inexperianced ricers stepping up jets without setting the car up properly. I truely believe N20 can be made just a reliable and safe as boost!

Second:

This thread is lacking the most important part IMO. It has no real rotary experiance with do's/don't's/and how to's. I guess it's ok to know how it works and chemical makeups and all that crap but it doesn't relate to 12a rotarys which is what this section is all about. Anyone can look up N20 on the internet and copy and paste!

I'd like to see some real experiance with this thread. I.E. I run "this" N20 setup with "this" engine with "this" fuel pump "these" jets and make "X" amount power etc. Or I blew 4 engines doing "this" it's a bad idea I changed to "this" and it works... etc.

We need pictures of setups on 12a's, fuel pressures, A/f ratios, alternate fueling I.E. propane and N20 or methanol top lube suggestions bottle pressures etc.

If a turbo kit can produce a large reliable HP number the why can't N20? I believe it can. It's not like we can install forged internals etc. So if theres guys making 300+ on factory internals with turbs then N20 should be able to do the same for a fraction of the cost if done properly. Problem is noone ever posts on successful setups and do's and don't's.

And unfortunatly I already have a race car. I rely on my 12a to get me to work SO I cannot be the one to push it to it's limits.

I can tell what I have done and how it worked.

Jet size VS hp output is BS. There is no way to say "X" jets will make "x" HP on your car. The only way to tell is with a dyno. A .20 FUEL and .24 NOS jet may make 60hp on a small engine and only 35 on a larger one. There are to many factors to figure in. For rotarys I was told by NOS tech to go by motorcycle chart on jetting and HP estimates. Here is a general chart that should make for a good basline for the 12a rotary.

http://www.mpsracing.com/products/NOS/no01za.htm

I started with a single fogger NOS kit. Retarded timing 4 degrees and installed 2 temp range colder plugs than stockers. (can't remember the number at the moment) Used a shurflow pump and seperate resevoir for methanol. I kept the factory fuel pump and lines because I was useing my shurflo pump for enrichment. This also meant I didn't alter the cars factory fueling system which enabled me to retain almost complete factory daily driving aside from a few degrees timing and some colder spark plugs. Also I got all the anti-detonation benefits and higher octane benefits from useing methanol.

The rule of thumb is 8-10 jet sizes larger for alcohol and or methanol at the same fuel pressure....

However i was running at 60 psi(shur flo pump pressure) going with the indicated jet sizes for 60ish HP is actually pretty close becasuse huge amount of pressure compared to the 5psi the factory fuel pumps put out. Going up in jet size will cause a rich condition because they are based at 5psi of fuel pressure. So if you run 60psi you'll have to adjust your jet size accordingly.

I used 20/24 for what should have made around a 60 hp increase according to the motorcycle chart above. I believe it made more. The shot was enough to make a 70k mile original clutch slip I sprayed it in 2nd at 4k rpm and smoked the tires! Then again in 3rd gear at 4k and felt the clutch sliping all the way to 7500!

I wish I could install a good clutch and push the 12a to the 300hp range(or close to it). I believe I could have done it with no problems. I have since removed the kit and am reinstalling it on the race car.

Sorry all it was fun to play with but I shouldn't have put in on my daily in the first place! I think I have a sickness! :lol:

Hope this helps someone.

Well I didnt copy and paste this from anywhere but my own thread.

Also there is no definate setup for a certain motor, or what it is going to do when its on your motor. It all requires tuning tuning tuning, just like a turbo every set up is different.

On one of my 12As, I had pretty steady AFRs, through a wide band. But I noticed that on one of my cars I had hot spots, and then it would go overly rich. And then on my 13b with funcioning AUX ports like the GSL-SE it would have to be set-up overly rich under 3500 so that when the ports opened it would not go lean.

Again there is no specific set up for each car, its much like choosing a turbo. What kind of power do you want, how reliable do you want it to be, and how much money do you want to spend.

Is Kettleman (sp?) still on the forum?

He's had success with plate kits/12a's

My uncle ran a 150 wet shot using a holley 650 and the jet plates for the holley. 13b Bridported til it hurted.

Best set-up I've seen so far. Atkins apexseals can handle nitrous really well. I wouldn't go past 150 though. 75 is a safe number i've seen a lot of the SP guys around here running. Nitrous really does get a bad rep due to all the ricers out there blowing thier engines doing stupid shit. I can't even talk about nitrous without being called a ricer at my school and I'm in fucking college.

I'll be running juice in the distant future since the set-up has been taken off of the BP and I'll just swap it over to my 13b SP. I'll let you guys know how that's doing.

Never accused you of the copy and paste... But you have to admit all the info was generalized. Not specific to rotarys.

And as much as I agree with your "Every motor is different" idea thats more along the lines of fine tuning. If you are running a healthy 12A (IE in spec compression same carb or FI etc) and a similar year of car, the cars will react similar to Like "combos".

This is how american muscle mustang/corvette/camaro etc do so well. Theres a million forums out there. In each forum they post up a specific combo that works great and the fine tune that combo for the specific car. Rx-7's aren't any different if it works well on bobs 1985 GS chances are it's gonna work just as well on little timmys 84 gs. I'm looking for the old school wankle experts out there that have blown 20 motors on N20 and can rebuild one blind folded. They can tell us factory limits jet sizes timing EGT temp & A/f limits etc.


Thats the kind of info I'm looking for! So atkins seals and the juice mix well. That should be added to some sort of sticky on "building a n20 motor" or something.

What kind of 1/4 times did that net your uncle? How did he bridge port it?

out of curiousity fcdrifter13, which do u personaly prefer? N20 or turbo. or possibly the combo of both