How to drain gas tank
#26
ancient wizard...
Reading your reply has reduced my blood pressure greatly! :-) Engine oil level is good, only down about 1/2 qt. (which is where it was at when I started all this.) I checked this at the start of everything and the level has maintained this level throughout my hassles (maybe dropped only about 1/16 qt.) I didn't smell the dipstick but I will now. Thanks for reminding me what that test was about for the fuel pump...now I remember...
I will do your spark plug test tomorrow after work. Do I need to do it on all the plugs, or just the leading? Thank you!!!!
I will do your spark plug test tomorrow after work. Do I need to do it on all the plugs, or just the leading? Thank you!!!!
#27
ancient wizard...
Ok, see attached photos. This spade connector is always connected when I try to start the car. Is there a way to measure the signal at the blade connection with a VOM? Is so, what is the procedure? Detach the connector then attach the + of the VOM to the terminal and the - of the VOM to ground and crank the engine, then note the voltage?
#28
ancient wizard...
One more thing,actually two...1st voltmeter gauge is not terribly accurate as a mass produced unit+wiring in car is 30 plus years old,coupled with the fact the starter motor which is a fantastic power consumer along with fuel pump,ecu,injectors,igniters and coils are simultaneously pulling their alloted amounts of voltage/current from the battery. If you were to connect your multimeter to the battery during cranking,you would see something like 10+ volts. Regarding oil pressure gauge registering 1/4 gauge travel while cranking,that's consistent with good oil pressure with a running engine.
#29
GSL SE
Thread Starter
You're missing the Black Wire EFI Signal lead on the front (Trailing) coil. The one that's on there now goes to the ignitor. There's a separate black wire with a spade connector that feeds your ECU with the EFI signal, and if it's not connected to the Trailing Coil, you're not getting the injectors to fire. It really could be that simple.
A trick for advanced troubleshooting is that the engine will run (poorly) if you connect the EFI Signal lead to the LEADING coil - which is the incorrect coil, but will let the ECU determine when to fire the ignitors, however off time. This will limp you home if your Trailing Coil or Trailing Ignitor fails for some reason.
Find that black wire with spade connector and plug it onto the opposite side blade on the same ignitor lead. This will restore your EFI signal and should get it up and running.
Also, take a picture showing which wires are connected to both coils and I can tell you more about what's going on.
A trick for advanced troubleshooting is that the engine will run (poorly) if you connect the EFI Signal lead to the LEADING coil - which is the incorrect coil, but will let the ECU determine when to fire the ignitors, however off time. This will limp you home if your Trailing Coil or Trailing Ignitor fails for some reason.
Find that black wire with spade connector and plug it onto the opposite side blade on the same ignitor lead. This will restore your EFI signal and should get it up and running.
Also, take a picture showing which wires are connected to both coils and I can tell you more about what's going on.
i will ill take more photos and post them tonight. Thank you!
#30
GSL SE
Thread Starter
Do the spark test as i outlined in previous post,this will tell you if BOTH Leading and trailing ignition are operational,if either isn't we'll focus on why that is so. Completely functional ignition system is one of three things needed,the other two are fuel,in the right quantity and proper compression.
#31
ancient wizard...
Yes,pull them all and ground them on top of the engine and watch and compare all- all should be same color and intensity. Have someone else crank the car so you can watch plugs firing closeup. Video and post results if you like, have person cranking car watch tach needle for wiggles.
#32
GSL SE
Thread Starter
You're missing the Black Wire EFI Signal lead on the front (Trailing) coil. The one that's on there now goes to the ignitor. There's a separate black wire with a spade connector that feeds your ECU with the EFI signal, and if it's not connected to the Trailing Coil, you're not getting the injectors to fire. It really could be that simple.
Find that black wire with spade connector and plug it onto the opposite side blade on the same ignitor lead. This will restore your EFI signal and should get it up and running.
Also, take a picture showing which wires are connected to both coils and I can tell you more about what's going on.
Find that black wire with spade connector and plug it onto the opposite side blade on the same ignitor lead. This will restore your EFI signal and should get it up and running.
Also, take a picture showing which wires are connected to both coils and I can tell you more about what's going on.
#33
GSL SE
Thread Starter
On a side note, I know the green connector is to jump start (via jumper wire) the fuel pump, but what is the other connector for? It does not connect to anything. (These are by the air filter).
Last edited by RXrick; 10-09-17 at 08:49 PM. Reason: dupe image
#34
GSL SE
Thread Starter
Yes,pull them all and ground them on top of the engine and watch and compare all- all should be same color and intensity. Have someone else crank the car so you can watch plugs firing closeup. Video and post results if you like, have person cranking car watch tach needle for wiggles.
#35
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
Your coil wiring looks correct. Be sure to push the rubber covers on top of your positive leads to protect them from shorts, though. How did the removal and test of spark plugs go?
Also, on the connectors by the air flow meter, the green 3-lead is for setting Throttle Position Sensor using a "TPS 2 Bulb Fixture". The 2-lead with the black rubber cover is to test the fuel pump without the engine running. When shunted across the 2-leads, it replicates the air sensor switch in the air flow meter showing incoming air. Our cars were designed NOT to engage fuel pump operation unless air is coming into the engine to prevent flooding.
Also, your RE-EGI intake box is aluminum and not a good conductor. Find something steel to ground the plugs during your spark test. Hoping for the best,
Also, on the connectors by the air flow meter, the green 3-lead is for setting Throttle Position Sensor using a "TPS 2 Bulb Fixture". The 2-lead with the black rubber cover is to test the fuel pump without the engine running. When shunted across the 2-leads, it replicates the air sensor switch in the air flow meter showing incoming air. Our cars were designed NOT to engage fuel pump operation unless air is coming into the engine to prevent flooding.
Also, your RE-EGI intake box is aluminum and not a good conductor. Find something steel to ground the plugs during your spark test. Hoping for the best,
Last edited by LongDuck; 10-10-17 at 09:23 PM.
#36
GSL SE
Thread Starter
Your coil wiring looks correct. Be sure to push the rubber covers on top of your positive leads to protect them from shorts, though. How did the removal and test of spark plugs go?
Also, on the connectors by the air flow meter, the green 3-lead is for setting Throttle Position Sensor using a "TPS 2 Bulb Fixture". The 2-lead with the black rubber cover is to test the fuel pump without the engine running. When shunted across the 2-leads, it replicates the air sensor switch in the air flow meter showing incoming air. Our cars were designed NOT to engage fuel pump operation unless air is coming into the engine to prevent flooding.
Also, your RE-EGI intake box is aluminum and not a good conductor. Find something steel to ground the plugs during your spark test. Hoping for the best,
Also, on the connectors by the air flow meter, the green 3-lead is for setting Throttle Position Sensor using a "TPS 2 Bulb Fixture". The 2-lead with the black rubber cover is to test the fuel pump without the engine running. When shunted across the 2-leads, it replicates the air sensor switch in the air flow meter showing incoming air. Our cars were designed NOT to engage fuel pump operation unless air is coming into the engine to prevent flooding.
Also, your RE-EGI intake box is aluminum and not a good conductor. Find something steel to ground the plugs during your spark test. Hoping for the best,
I was unable to do any spark test tonight. Hopefully, with your blessings with this fireplace thing, I will do the spark plug test tomorrow evening. And thanks for the explanation of the connectors by the air flow filter. This was probably explained to me before but I had forgotten...
My plan is to record a video of the spark test on all the plugs tomorrow evening and post here tomorrow night, pending if you think my fireplace log thingy would be a good ground. Otherwise, I might have to look for another steel thing for the test (and I really want to test all the plugs together at the same time because I think it would make a great recording to see ALL the plugs firing at the same time and what that might look like :-) Thanks for your help, LongDuck!
#37
ancient wizard...
Don't wish to discount LongDuck's advice regarding using intake plenum as a ground. Consider this...the rotor housings the spark plugs are installed in are aluminum...the dynamic chamber is thru bolted to the intake manifold which is bolted to rotor housing=no better path to ground. I have done this quick test this way for many years for this reason and one other. By placing plugs up top on dynamic chamber,they are far enough away from spark plug holes and any fuel mist that might be expelled from them during test cranking that there's no possible chance of ignition of that mist-should there be any. This test should be performed quickly-just long enough to verify quality of spark at all plugs. If you're doing this test and wish to video,be quick about it. The closer you are to the plugs,the better you will see spark. The fireplace log,while good ground material would need to be grounded to the car and frankly would be a cumbersome operation.IMHO.
#38
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
^^^This guy's done it on top of the dynamic intake chamber, so I'd trust his opinion.
(I hope you were kidding about your fireplace log device,...) I tend to ground stuff to the brackets for the A/C or Alternator, as I know those are grounded theough the engine straps, but I've also run extra grounds to the engine because you cant have too many! Good luck, and post spark results,
(I hope you were kidding about your fireplace log device,...) I tend to ground stuff to the brackets for the A/C or Alternator, as I know those are grounded theough the engine straps, but I've also run extra grounds to the engine because you cant have too many! Good luck, and post spark results,
#39
GSL SE
Thread Starter
^^^This guy's done it on top of the dynamic intake chamber, so I'd trust his opinion.
(I hope you were kidding about your fireplace log device,...) I tend to ground stuff to the brackets for the A/C or Alternator, as I know those are grounded theough the engine straps, but I've also run extra grounds to the engine because you cant have too many! Good luck, and post spark results,
(I hope you were kidding about your fireplace log device,...) I tend to ground stuff to the brackets for the A/C or Alternator, as I know those are grounded theough the engine straps, but I've also run extra grounds to the engine because you cant have too many! Good luck, and post spark results,
Essentially, I'm not sure what I'm suppose to see. The tach wiggles, but the spark at the electrodes fire at different times, and I'm not sure they spark at ALL four electrodes. What if I only see spark at 2-3 electrodes? Hope you guys can see this test. Stay tuned. Oh, and I wasn't kidding about the fireplace log thingy :-P
#40
ancient wizard...
This is why you're doing this test. They all do need to fire-consistently for car to start and run. I ll watch for your video. A thought,because of engine motion while cranking you may want to put a piece of wood maybe 10" section of 2x3 or 4 with something of some weight on top of plugs/wires while you retest? to verify all plugs stay securely in contact with engine housing during cranking/testing. Only really important that you see spark consistently at one of the four electrodes on EACH plug. The idea behind the 4 electrodes is this,when installed in running engine making power under way,plugs see a lot of heat. Unlike a piston engine that fires each plug every 4 cycles of crankshaft rotation,a rotary fires each plug 3x in one rotation of e shaft. 3x for leading and same for trailing. The plugs don't get a break,neither does the whole ignition system. On the plugs in your rotary,each time they fire,the next ignition event will fire the plug from another of the 4 side electrodes and that will be from whichever of them is coolest. Hope makes sense.
#41
GSL SE
Thread Starter
Yes,pull them all and ground them on top of the engine and watch and compare all- all should be same color and intensity. Have someone else crank the car so you can watch plugs firing closeup. Video and post results if you like, have person cranking car watch tach needle for wiggles.
Just realized my file is MP4, and I'm not sure if this is compatible with this forum............... Guess we'll find out.
#42
GSL SE
Thread Starter
This is why you're doing this test. They all do need to fire-consistently for car to start and run. I ll watch for your video. A thought,because of engine motion while cranking you may want to put a piece of wood maybe 10" section of 2x3 or 4 with something of some weight on top of plugs/wires while you retest? to verify all plugs stay securely in contact with engine housing during cranking/testing. Only really important that you see spark consistently at one of the four electrodes on EACH plug. The idea behind the 4 electrodes is this,when installed in running engine making power under way,plugs see a lot of heat. Unlike a piston engine that fires each plug every 4 cycles of crankshaft rotation,a rotary fires each plug 3x in one rotation of e shaft. 3x for leading and same for trailing. The plugs don't get a break,neither does the whole ignition system. On the plugs in your rotary,each time they fire,the next ignition event will fire the plug from another of the 4 side electrodes and that will be from whichever of them is coolest. Hope makes sense.
I have rendered out a few different video formats (under 5MB) that I can now upload. I'm just trying to render out the best one for you to view now. It will happen tonight. Thanks!!
#43
GSL SE
Thread Starter
GSLSE spark plug test
Okay guys, here is the video recording of my spark plug test. I laid all the plugs on top of the RE-EFI cover and placed a red brick on top of the plugs to make sure they made contact with the (aluminum) surface. The video file is .wmv file. I have an FLV file which is better but this forum will not accept FLV files...
Anyway, hope this vid helps solve the mystery, or at least pinpoint or eliminate spark as a possible culprit :-)
Anyway, hope this vid helps solve the mystery, or at least pinpoint or eliminate spark as a possible culprit :-)
#44
ancient wizard...
Just looked at your video,spark looks ok. You can rule that out as a cause for no start. FYI your crank sequence is about 10x longer than necessary. Need to give starter a rest when trying to start car after 20 seconds or so of cranking,gets hot quickly. Take note of how warm your battery cables get after one of your extended cranking periods. Can you take a video of your next start attempt so we can listen to it turning over. Suggest you put about 20 cc of engine oil in both leading plug holes and turn engine thru by hand about1/2 dozen times to distribute around rotor housing. Charge the battery to be 100%,don't overcharge it.
#45
GSL SE
Thread Starter
Just looked at your video,spark looks ok. You can rule that out as a cause for no start. FYI your crank sequence is about 10x longer than necessary. Need to give starter a rest when trying to start car after 20 seconds or so of cranking,gets hot quickly. Take note of how warm your battery cables get after one of your extended cranking periods. Can you take a video of your next start attempt so we can listen to it turning over. Suggest you put about 20 cc of engine oil in both leading plug holes and turn engine thru by hand about1/2 dozen times to distribute around rotor housing. Charge the battery to be 100%,don't overcharge it.
#47
GSL SE
Thread Starter
No. I don't have the means to pull start. So do I turn the engine over 6x or just turn the fan 6x?
#48
GSL SE
Thread Starter
i do do not have any equipment to test compression or fuel pressure, etc. Is there a cheap fast down and dirty way to check these things? Or should I take my car to a shop at this point?
#49
ancient wizard...
Now that we know I have spark and so that can be ruled out as my problem, it looks like now I need to look at "compression" and "fuel" (what about "air" ? )
i do do not have any equipment to test compression or fuel pressure, etc. Is there a cheap fast down and dirty way to check these things? Or should I take my car to a shop at this point?
i do do not have any equipment to test compression or fuel pressure, etc. Is there a cheap fast down and dirty way to check these things? Or should I take my car to a shop at this point?
#50
ancient wizard...
Use a turkey Bastet and inject about 20 cc of engine oil into each leading plug hole. Turning fan is...turning fan against fan clutch which does not turn engine over. Easiest way is to grab a/c compressor drive belt and pull toward you. This belt is connected directly to e shaft=crankshaft in piston engine. Pulling on belt will turn engine over,reach down as far as you can on top run of belt and pull,you'll get about 6" of belt in one pull. Do this about 20x,that will give you about 6 revolutions of the engine. Will caution you to not pinch your hand between belt and a/c pulley.