Engineers
 

Has anyone ever really really wanted to do in a engineer? that miserable bleeder on top of the clutch has about driven me to it. engineers should ne forced to repair anything they designed, AFTER the car is assembled......... The bleeder screw has dissappeared into a black hole somewhere. end of rant.

Well, if its any engineer I would like to kill its the Ford engineers. I had a MN12 thunderbird (89-97) with the 4.6V8 and it was absolute hell to work on. It took me an hour to figure out how to get the oil filter out of its cubby after I had unscrewed it. Then another hour and a half to put the new one in. Then there is the screwed up starter that you can't reach bolts for, then this and that that was all messed up. The car was a nightmare to work on.

Amen Brother.

Mostly, the 7 is pretty easy to work on, though often cramped. I've sometimes replaced that clutch bleeder with a speed bleeder, but usually you can find a way to get a wrench on it, even if it's an 8mm Alden wrench. Of course, if you use a pressure bleeder and a tube into a bottle of fluid you don't have to close the bleeder while maintaing pedal pressure. The big problem is you gotta put a lot of fluid thru to get rid of the air.

try changing a thermastat on a saturn without removing anything lol its bloody bullshit how some cars are put together i had to rip half the shit out

When it comes to automotive engineering, one engineer designs a part while another, often at a different company, designs the manufacturing steps that fit the parts together.

For example, GM will buy transmissions from Getrag and transmission subframes from, say, Magna. neither supplier will have a clue where the others intend to fit their fasteners, so it may turn out that to change a wire that runs near the bellhousing you have to drop the tranny out.

Extreme example, but you get the point.

A speed bleeder??? am going to use a bottle, and hav fluid ,but the bloody bleeder went away somewhere . like screwdrivers and sox, Bob

speed bleeders ftl.

i bled my brakes sunday by myself in 30sec top

horay for spare checkvalves from the emissions rack. throw em on with a lil vac line, pump away!

in the 15 or so 1st gens ive had, they have usually been 84-85's.

its been almost a revelation to work on the 79, its SO EASY. its like you can change any part you want without having to touch anything else.

best example i can think of is the rear transmission seal. you just lift the car and change it, the exhaust isnt in the way, and theres no big heat shield either. takes about 15minutes...

Nah, they all know how everything is assembled and how everything fits together from the different manufacturers. There's a lot of communication and CAD files passing back and forth from one company to another. None of the design goes on in a vacuum. The design engineers design parts and assembly procedures. The manufacturing engineers design the processes that are put in place to make that assembly happen. They often also write up the formalized assembly instructions for the line.

Engineers spend a lot of time working out the assembly procedure and assembling prototypes before anything goes into production. Many times, assemblies are designed to be difficult to work on to discourage someone from DIY work on purpose. All part and assembly designs are a compromise of cost, manufacture-ability, packaging and various other requirements and sometimes the results are more successful than others.

You lost the clutch bleeder tit? No need to take it all the way out. And you can get a replacement at any autostore. When you put it back on have a piece of tubing over the end to help get it in place, then use that, in a can of fluid, to bleed it.

Do I have to do everything around here?

Orly? Must just be military spec vehicles then. I had to engineer solutions to the Italian intercooler interfering with the German-sourced oil cooler, and the Western Star starter wiring rubbing on the Iveco designed fuel line, etc.

i just replaced one of these starters today, one of the hardest things ive ever had to do for free.

the fucking gt mustang 1996 and up. taking of the damn exhaust from the shorty header's there a fucking pain in the ass. Why the hell would ford make shorty headers, and then not make the nuts and bolts not visable and reachable from the top.

You probably were working on a engine with the beehive oil cooler. With that monstrosity in the way it's a bit of a pain to get to the slave cylinder.

The way the military does things is totally different. Their goals are not the same as a consumer business which drives completely different behaviors. and in the case of the military, you're right, there often isn't visibility in design from one sub-assembly to another. Often because of security. Also often because of the piecemeal parts selection that goes on.

I think this every time I have to change oil on a car that requires removal of an inner fender well to get to the filter. The #$%!^#%#% engineer that came up with this crap should have to work on this! And then they put the filter right above a frame member so it's impossible to do it without making a mess. Thanks alot!

</rant>

Rich

Well, I often hear civilians grumbling about same on the IEEE chatter, so I'm not entirely convinced some of it doesn't occur on civilian designs. A good example is when an engine bay is designed for x amount of space, then an engine in sourced from a separate manufacturer and bolted in as a complete assembly. Next thing you know, a manifold prevents easy access to a critical bolt or something.

Yeah, the solenoid went out on my 97 4.6. I had to remove the whole starter to get the solenoid replaced. It took me 3 hours to remove the damn thing, then after 4 hours of fighting with it to put it back in, I ended up with 2 crossthreaded bolts. Try retapping those holes. It is hell. They should have modded the bellhousing to bolt the starter into, instead of going back from the engine, basically its opposite of what the RX-7 is. They should have made it like the RX-7.

My Alero is another story though. Its extremely easy to work on, and doing an oil change is usually very clean and easy to do. Litterally no drips on any frame rails or the engine. Gotta love the cartrige style oil filter on those Ecotecs.

Alright, I am in school to become a Mechanical Engineer with a focus in vehicle design. I will take all your trials and tribulations to heart in each and every one of my projects. However, from what I've heard from a few of my professors that worked together for Pontiac; There are obviously several different projects going on at the same time, and each of those projects is given a designated team of engineers that work with it, improving the design, from beginning to end. They may take some parts from other companies, but the design itself is not a piecemeal process. The team members all work together, usually in the same building, on the different areas of the total design. Some of them may be contract workers from another company, but they all work together on it.

*bites tongue to resist pointing out that it's the makers of the Aztek teaching him this*

ROFL, no my professors left Pontiac in '92. As a class field trip they went back to TP the R&D department where that monstrosity was dreamed up.

They were a rowdy bunch.....they apparently gave a rough treatment to the Fiero makers as well...

"Let's take a Minivan and make it look like someone at Pep Boys tried to maike it look like a sportscar!"

oy.

My favorite is that sagging line below the rear window. What styling genius decided to mold in what looks like a defect? Geesh *LOL*

The Aztec Design
 

A lot of you are apparently not aware of the origin of the design. The vehicle was originally designed for the movie "Road Warrior", but the producers decided it was too ugly for the movie. Later, Pontiac decided to produce it.

I spent much of my career as a maintainabilty engineer at Boeing, notably on the 777. On a commercial airliner, any part that cannot be quickly replaced can cause a delay or cancellation, which costs money. The airline is the customer, and they do the maintenance. Good maintainabilty is a major selling issue on commercial airplanes.

On a car, the customer almost never does the maintenance, and they just accept the outrageous labor costs because they do not realize that they are paying for poor design. The manufacturer designs the car to be assembled in the factory at minimum cost, and the only criteria for maintenance is that you have to replace the parts without using a cutting torch. I have been working on cars for 50 years, and I have never seen a car that was well designed for maintainability.

My criteria include changing any light bulb in the car in 5 minutes, including the ones in the instrument panel, the alternator in 20 minutes, or the heater core in one hour. These are reasonable criteria. Show me a car that meets these. I can change the alternator on my RX-7 in 20 minutes, but it takes 8-10 hours to replace the heater core. A few cars have had the heater core in the engine compartment, where it is easily accessed - there is NO EXCUSE for putting it under the dash.

It's still butt ugly...

Rich

With the exception of the light bulbs for the instrument panel, because I never replaced them, much as I hate to admit it the 1985 F-150 XLT Lariat is a pretty easy truck to work on. When I replaced the heater core it was under the dash, but behind the glove box. All I had to do was unscrew the glove box from the dash and remove the heater core cover and it came out just fine. When I replaced the engine the alternator came off and on in less than 10 minutes. So although I hated that truck I have to admit it was pretty easy to work on, just thought I give an example.

yesterday when i finaly got to it i tore the entire motor down in the rx7 in about an hour and ten minutes. and that is 20 minutes of building a tool to break the e-shaft bolt, and beating on the flywheel nut for about 10 minutes. this was my first time tearing one down. i was all smiles at its shear simplicity.

go buy a 1912 ford...not much there, shouldn'ttake too long to work on....

For the Road Warrior eh? so it wouldn't have been Max's family car....as his family was dead by then...

Who was supposed to drive it? Mad Max wouldn't be Mad about the Toecutter killing his wife and baby, he'd be mad at having to drive that cardboard box!

The V-8 Interceptor is just plain cool, and with that garage-built blower....



At any rate, I like to be able to do basic maintenence (oil, filters, spark plugs, alternator, distributor, fluids) within a half hour each. I luckily haven't had to do much in the way of heavy repair other than replacing my muffler.....but that didn't take very long....

One good thing about my winter beater, a Daytona 2.2 litre Turbo, is when you open the hood the oil filter, plug wires, etc. are all right there and easily accessible.

I have often said that if you design or engineer something,not just autos,washers dryers furnaces lawn mowers etc etc. If you cant fix or repair it ,under minimal conditions, or cant reach or access a nut or fit in a part. shame on you .My son the engineer and my dad the engineer, get really tired of hearing this ,or hearing me laugh when they have trouble. end of rant. Bob

i used to own an 86 laser and to replace the ac belt you have to pull a motor mount and same with the timing belt. That was only after u took the 10 toques hex bolts of which the TOWN i live in didn't have any anywhere so i wreaked the bolts gettin the belt off. older ford thunder birds to get the 6th spark plug u had to take off the front tire. And on my 2002 trailblazer i put the oil filter on with 1 finger because thats all i could get in there my filter wrench wouldn't even fit

FD's are horrible to work on.