Electric Eaton SUPERCHARGER
 

All I can say is this looks like the real deal.
Too bad i don't have 3000 bones to spend.
And there is a bigger one coming appearently.
WWW.Boosthead.com

Interesting. The limiting thing is the starter motors that power it. Hi torque yes, but series wound DC motors have a very short duty cycles. Thats why it has a 15sec duty cycle, and you better let it cool down b4 you boost again. Neat for specific applications though, like drag racing.

This is untrue. Series wound DC motors are built to spec, depending on the duty cycle needed. Many are designed for 100% duty. It is just the cheap starter motors that overheat in a few seconds. Series DC motors are used in everything from electric cars to power drills, many operating continuously.

Imagine a pair of these things pushing through an intercooler..... hmm.

I have used old heater blower motors for my water pumps for years and I still have them all running back from 1993. Cheep and very cool.

Wow could you imagine, that would be at full boost in what milliseconds. no time to creep up like a beltdrive or a turbo. Just Boom lets goooooo.

Good point, however looking at the system, it looks like they are using starter motors. No biggie, you just can't be boostin all the time.

And it flows 405 CFM. This is a match made in heaven for a stockport 12a or what? you could just use a SterlingCarl carb and a WOT switch to activate both the SC and the have the same switch turn on just the fuel portion of a wet Nitrous system with a 75 HP jet in it. that'd be a consistant kick inthe pants 'eh?
If only I had a few grand....

Carl You sound like you know your stuff, I some times Have to drive a car in the shop on the starter motor (HONDA) those things are bullit proof, I've driven them as far as 150 Yards on the key, Don't under estimate a good starter motor. 3gs. and Id have one of those Jobbys

Oh I dont doubt it jimdog. Just constant duty on a starter will kill it. I use the starter to roll my racecar onto my trailer (which is obviously uphill). They just need a cool down cycle after that. Thats how they are engineered.

Geoff Knight here--Boosthead.com--See you are talking about the ESC--what an awesome product (If I may say so myself)
Yes, those are three starter motors, but they are NOT your average starter :-) They start life as a 2.5 hp motor and are tweaked to 6.5hp each. I have tested these for hundreds of hours, and ONLY if you run the motors for over 30 seconds at 36V+ do they destroy the armature and brushes. As a matter of fact, at SFP on Thurs 12-11 we ran four consecutive pulls on the dyno--with about a minute between them, and after all four runs to 110mph the motors were still warm--not hot. Remember that we are not pushing them at all on the base model with 5-6 psi.
If a 1.5" hole is cut into the brush cover and baseplate adapter, and a small electric fan blows air through the holes (I have done this with simple 1.5" ducting) the motors never get hot. You can ask me for the race motor windings from the beginning and run 48V @ 10hp each motor. That is how you get 20+ PSI flowing 550 CFM which then tapers down to 5 psi. Obviously I dont sell that to someone with three first names, or someone with brothers who all have the same name (Derryl, Deryl, & Deryll!!!)
BTW, check out the runs done on 12-11. They defy all known principles for hp increases under boost. We saw more than 100% increase at certain rpm levels at only 5 psi. That same phenomenon has occured with two other cars, so it is not a fluke. The ' 98 Altima KA24DE 2.4 4-cyl auto trans is a real road slug. It is completely stock except for the ESC.
Running NA we get a high 17 sec car with a vericom, and a low 15 sec run with the ESC on. We are bringing the car to Moroso next weekend to track test it and have Sport Compact do an article on it. They are sponsoring the race, so it is fitting they will have the first crack at the car. I will let them tech inspect it so noone claims NOS hidden somewhere, and let them drive it for the NA and ESC runs. I think that is as fair as it can get. Everyone is invited to come and see it. We may have several cars there if we can get the owners to come.

I just saw your ad in this Month's Turbo. I didn't know you guys were based out of South FL.

It will interesting to see some dyno graphs from Frank's dyno-jet on that E-Charger. Seems like a great idea.

What do you do for fuel?

right on
 

Wow Mr. Knight, I wasn't expecting you to be contributing to my thread!:bowdown: We're not worthy...You have made something very cool and iI am confident you will do well with it. Its about time something different came along. Do you plan on making a kit for the rotary? More specifically do you plan on making a kit to blow through a carbed 12a? If you have such an inclination I would like to be the first to wholeheartedly offer my car as a test platform, too bad I don't live in Florida:mad: anyway, congrats. on the release.

Wow! This is fooking cool. Can't imagine what these products will look like in a few years when every car manufacturer has 'em. Next to come, powersteering, A/C, etc,...

We use a simple FMU for fuel control. When running a safe 5-6 psi an FMU is quite consistant, and VERY inexpensive. I give my customers the name of David Shih who sells brand new 12:1 units for $99.95 plus $5 shipping.

We will not be making specific kits for any car. I have several companies who plan on keeping diagrams for the simple mounting brackets they bend so in the future they can make more. The ESC mounts anywhere you want to place it. If you want the weight in the back (like an RX7 would LOVE, mount it in the rear hatch or wherever. A simple 2.5" tube can carry the air to the throttle body, carb hat, or air box. The ESC is completely independant of the engine, so it matters not where you mount it.

I have a Neon ACR that is being built to run low 10's on my ESC. The batteries and ESC will mount where the passenger seat resides now. A 3.5" hole in the firewall with a grommet will allow the 3" pipe to run to the large front mount intercooler and then to the engine. I will be running 26-30 psi at the launch. My ESC motors can be race prepared to make 10-12hp each--30-36hp total. That will give me 25+ psi up to 2500 rpm and then boost will taper in a linear fashion to 12-15 psi at 7000 rpm.

Hey Geoff, I am assuming that the ESC must be kinda noisy, out of curiosity what might you compare the sound to? I am sort of picturing it sounding like one of those pneumatic diesel bus starter motors....so what might you compare the sound to? By the way I am saving for one of your ESC's sir!

The best description of the sound is a low pitch siren. The rotors spin 10K to 12K rpm, so the rotor whine is audible from 300-500 ft--It is LOUD!!!

Still, while starter motors will work, I don't believe they are ideal. Ask anyone who has ever raced a bar stool. :) Also, years back I made a starter motor based go-kart, and I modified the motors as you described (almost exactly). I had constant problems with overheating. Another issue is efficiency. As anyone who has done any work with electric motors knows, starters are very inefficient.

I also don't believe your 6.5HP rating...Let's call 1HP 700W. It's actually 760W or thereabouts, but 700 is easier to work with...At 12V, that's 58 A per motor. Times three, an you're looking at 174 A..

I'm not saying you're lying, but my calculations just don't add up...We're looking at a lot of battery power to run them (or alternator power?). Of course, if it's a 24V system, we now need 2 more 12V batteries and a way to charge them (weight). And what kind of relay is being used to break 174A? I assume something like the Avcon or Bubba Contactor? Magnetic blowouts will be necessary to prevent arcing, but I'm sure you've already thought of that.

Aaron, good reply but 1000 Watts/HP would be closer because the motors are way less than 100% efficient. At 36 Volts thats 180 Amps for 6.5 HP. Possible but not too practical. I guess it is sort of a gadget guys nitrous.

Good and fair questions. I have tested the units at 875 amps @ 24V producing 16.5 hp on a dyno. All dynos have an efficiency loss of at least 10%. The motors run for only 15 seconds max, so the heat buildup is not what you would get in a go-cart. Had you placed a small ducted fan blowing cool air through the armature you would have never seen overheating. To verify my hp claims, go to Magnusonproducts.com, open the specification page for the MP62, and plot the airflow and hp required to turn the SC graph. You will realize I am DEAD ON.
We use FOUR batteries--the Optima batteries are OK, but using only two will ruin the batteries internal connection. I have fried three of the red-top units. I now only use and recommend the Odyssey 680 model battery--and four or six are required.
I use Five 175 amp relay/solenoids. Two connecting the two sets of batteries, and three carrying power to the ESC. They are silver contact severe duty units that all EV guys are familiar with. $15 each.
The starter motors have 48V composition brushes used which work a little better when warm. 12V compositions are softer and prone to premature wear. I had the motors lab tested, and the expected life is 1000hrs at 15-20 sec intervals. That is 24-30 YEARS. 15-20 second runs being run 15-20 times per day. 250-350 sec per day. 4-6 minutes a day MAX. 10,000 minutes. Then the armature can be turned and a new set of brushes replaced for less than $100 total.
The Eaton averages 150K miles when belt driven. At 300 seconds per day it translates to 4 million miles.
My unit in the Altima has been abused, tested, run 48-60 volts into it, burned up three sets of motors during testing several years ago, and that same unit has been on three cars over the last two years. When I tear it down for inspection every other month, I put everything back on it as there is NO wear to it AT ALL. I average 5-20 runs per DAY. And my runs are one after the other after the other till the batteries go down. I recharge them with my 200 amp shop charger in a few minutes, and go do it again.
Look at what the starter normally has to do--it has to get several hundred ft/lb to develop immediately to get the heavy engine with compression that is cold and does NOT want to turn turning 200-300 rpm so it can start. And sometimes the car wont start so you try and try again and the battery goes dead. So you do this dozens of times yet the starter lasts 10 years. That is ONE starter. I use THREE. What do they have to do? Get two 3.5" rotors turning with two other motors helping. I run a good gear ratio so they dont come anywhere near stall speed which is where heat is created.
Please keep asking good questions--I truly appreciate them. I put the questions and answers in my FAQ files.

Have you used one on a rotary engine yet at this point?

how about a little bypass from the pressure side to the motors that opens immediatly AFTER you tell it to stop producing boost, have the motors run for another couple seconds at low pressure just blowing a jet of cooling air through the motor assembly to suck a chunk of heat from them.

how much do all those batteries weigh ?

would a hefty cap bank help with the starting surge draw ?

I think the system is a good idea, but I would like to know how much it weighs total (everything that had to be put on the car to allow it to run, batteries, esc unit, ducting, everything).

4 batteries, contactors, big electric motor, supercharger all for 15 seconds of boost..... No way. N2O is much more practical for the same effect.

"What about the extra weight?

The ESC design uses four 13lb batteries (the small Hawker/Oddysey 680 models) to power it, so you gain a total of 42lb for the ESC-400 and 52lb from the batteries. The typical turbo kit weighs 90lb, and the typical SC weighs 70. So the 'extra weight' that people refer to is not much more than any aftermarket system. You can use an Oddysey in place of your regular 38lb car battery which saves 23lb. That makes the system lighter than most complete turbo kits. "

--- From the FAQ

If any of you has every owned an NOX car, then you KNOW $2500/year is a VERY LITTLE amount to run on NOX. I would be bored to tears if I could only get 2-4 runs per day and spend over $2500/year. At $2.50 or more per run, just do the math. 5-10 per day times 365 is a LOT of $$$
There are no RX7 cars with one. These were just released to the public on Sept 15 of this year, and the ads started Nov 15.
Running a Batcap on my Neon racecar will lower the battery weight to 40 lb (4 X 10lb 800 amp batcaps), and the bank of batcaps will also be used to start the vehicle. So the batteries will be a wash with my car battery, and the ESC I am building for racing is only 32lbg. Aluminum cases on the motors, hollowed out and epoxy filled supercharger rotors, and lightened housing drops a good amount of weight. So what extra weight are we talking here--30lb? I see racers gain that much weight during the holidays :-)

One last point--Turbos were looked at as a poor way of add power, and sound reasoning took decades to change the minds of MOST people. The V8 guys STILL dont like anything but cubic inches and NOX. When you say a turbo is better, explain how? An RX7 has a serious EGT problem when turbocharged, and even the ceramic apex seals dont like a turbo. I do know a bit about turbos and rotaries (one of my my contacts is Carlos Lopez) and I also know the shortcomings of their design. The ESC would be a MUCH better alternative on a stock RX7, and for drag racing the future releases (I have six patent pending designs for the ESC family) will be perfect for racing applications. Imagine getting off the line with 25 psi boost--with cool EGT's on a rotary!!!

I'd buy one, but red doesn't match anything on my car...

It looks like I miscalculated. I accidentally did 1HP per motor, not the 6.5 as you mentioned in a previous post. Still, that makes it even worse.

In regard to the above....875A?!? 875A?!? (picure me running around the garage, like Doc Brown yelling "1.21 jigawats?!?"). My god, I don't even want to look at the cable needed. We're talking 00 welding cable here... ;)

I did.

I'm not saying you aren't...

Ignoring battery chemistry and all that, we're talking 200LBs in batteries here. The Optimas are about 50 LBs each (maybe a little less), but I don't know the Hawkers off hand. Probably similar.

Number one mistake: red tops are NOT deep cycle batteries. They are starting batteries. They were not designed for use like this. No wonder you killed them. :)

I am an EV guy. I would sure like to find a source for contactors this cheaply.


(snip a bunch of stuff...I certainly believe the unit is effective)

This is why you killed the Red Tops. What, no onboard charging?

Takes about 3 seconds to start an engine, and you are forgetting the HUGE gear reduction between the starter gear and the flywheel/flexplate.

Not me. :D

OK, here's why I am asking these questions. I don't know the weight of a standard supercharger...Let's call it 50 LBS? So we're talking about 4 deep cycle Yellow Tops (let's use the proper batteries) at 40 LBs each (I'll give you the 10 LBs). We'll even consider your supercharger to weigh nothing (filled with helium :) ). Cable, relays, etc. for 10 LBs. That's 170 LBs. Now, the stock turbo in an FC weighs about 25 LBs, intercooler for another 5 LBs, and I'll even give you 10 LBs for the piping. So we're seeing 40LBs here. I put a complete turbo system on my NA FC (based on the stock turbo), added about 50LBs total to the car, and ran 12s. :D

My question is this: why add all the battery weight, multiple points of failure and wiring when a standard belt-driven supercharger works fine? If you want to control boost, add a small CVT to the mix... :)

(Edit: What Doc Brown really meant was gigawatt).

Where's 680Rwhp12A (Robert from Rotary Shack) when you need him?

The ESC does not want deep cycle--it wants starting batteries. The 675-775 amps needed should not have been a problem when split into two Optimas. They have a 700 CCA rating. That is supposed to be no problem for 10-15 seconds.
I use the Odyssey batteries. They weigh 12lb each--48lb for four. I replaced my regular 40lb battery with one of the 12lb units, and that makes my total battery weight 60lb, or 20 over stock. Also, read the Optima literature as well as the Odyssey. The Optima can take a 100-200 amp charge as can the Odyssey. Standard lead acid cant, but these can.
I run two 2/0 cables from my relay bus bar to the ESC bus bar. We are not running for extended periods, so the cables get warm but dont run long enough to get hot. If they did, I would use three of them.
The ESC weighs 42lb.
I built turbo kits for the last 25 years, and I cant recall a single complete kit weighing less than 80-110 lb when shipped. Some items come off the car and are replaced by turbo designed parts, but even still the weight is similar to the ESC.
I buy 100+ relays at a time, and offer to sell six with each ESC order at my cost. The distributor I deal with does not sell to the public, only jobber and wholesale accounts. These are the same units sold by EV parts guys for $25-$40 each. They just happen to mark them up from the $14 each.
I dont expect you to buy an ESC. But what about the guy who has a car with no turbo or supercharger kit avaiable, does not want to pay $5K for a custom kit, and still wants the extra 100+hp? He now has an option he did not before.

I think the whole idea is great. The Bins on an FB will EASILY hold 4 Odyssey batteries, and any additional wires.

This thing is basically used like a Nitrous shot, without having the bad effects.

I would set it up with a throttle switch, to open only at WOT too.

How would it work on a CARB? Where would you mount it? Would you need a bonnet on it as well (like a turbo?)

The OEMs are developing these sort of solutions (saw some very nice CAD drawings recently), but using centrifugal blowers instead, which actually make far more sense for this app I would have thought.


Bill

If it comes down to a weight issue, I can provide weights on the stock FC turbo components. I ship stuff like that all the time.

Obviously, your solution is designed for intermittant duty (as you have made clear). So it's more of a 1/4 mile thing then a highway-cruiser thing.

This is what i am interested in. Where would you filter the air? And how warm is the air coming out of the starters? I asume you are not running any type of air cooling before the motor?

The delta rise at 5-6 psi is only 40-50 degrees. VERY efficient. If the Eaton is NOT ported, those numbers are a LOT higher.

I have six different patent pending designs, including TWO centrifugal types. The centrifugals take a lot more time to spool up to 45K rpm, and make absolutely no additional power at 8 psi or less. My test design for almost two years was centrifugal. I got frustrated one day after toasting belts, bearings, and having to wait for 3-4 tenths of a second before boost. I had an Eaton GM 62 with a bad nose drive, so I machined the adapter for it and bolted it on. I expected to have more heat, less boost, etc. This was an already ported Eaton, so I saw EXACTLY the same boost, but it came in so fast it was amazing. I then had to add a check valve allowing air to bypass the stationary rotors when the ESC was not activated (not necessary on the centrifugal design).

Next year I am releasing a track-only centrifugal design using three 12hp motors drawing 35KW @ 48-72V. It will be fully programmable with a 800 amp controller, and will use the BatCap 800 batteries with an additional capacitor cell with several hundred farads. It will be VERY EXPENSIVE, but as my Neon will be the first to run it people will see 20 psi boost through an intercooler from a unit that weighs 28lb. The total weight including cables, batteries, etc will be less than 80lb, and will last just over one 10 second run per charge. I will have a battery charger and an extra set of batteries that will drop in between runs. I should easily run in the low 10's as 20 psi on the 420A will be 450-470hp.

If I had a carb-type car, I would get a Paxton carb box, or a bonnet. The box is far better if you can find one. You can modify a carb to be blown-through, but they dont need anything but plastic or closed cell floats when inside a box. You will also need a fuel pressure regulator at a 1:1 ratio so boost is compensated for in the fuel system and float bowl. Very simple and reliable. The rotary would benefit more than most cars with that INSTANT 5-6 psi. Torque under the curve would climb 50-100% making the RX7 much better to drive when boosting. I did many blow-through turbos in my early days, so I could point you in the right direction with that setup.

i hope you guys got a 200a alt and a red top batt like me. You wont be able to start your car after plugging them in...lol

Now that is what you call back from the Dead. two years almost to the day.

Wow, this thread is two years old? I've been around for too long :p