Didnt leave well enough alone... lots of starting issues now
 

So I had the car running great, something that hasn't happened in a while, but the idle still didn't satisfy me. I have a friend rev the engine while I pour a the rest of the Seafoam I saved equally through all four carb barrels (I had like 1/16 of a can left.) It bogs but my friend manages to keep it up until it finally just gives up and dies. We tried starting it for about half an hour but all we get is exhaust backfire, with intermittent puffs of smoke popping out of the carburetor (air cleaner assembly was left open). So we remove the plugs (which smell like raw gas, especially at the front rotor), clean them, disconnect the ignitors on the sidewall and crank the car to unflood it, and white smoke pours out of the engine bay; a good sign. We slap the plugs back in and this time the car tries to crank and even starts for a couple seconds, but the tachometer doesn't respond. Again, we pull the plugs and this time we clean them on a bench grinder with a wire brush, and I spray a bit of carb cleaner into the gas tank. I start cranking the car without the plugs to deflood it again but this time after a bit of cranking and no smoke it stops dead in it's tracks. Now trying to start it, all we get is a click and no response (no engine activity). I assume we've blown something but I used a lot of mixed advice off board searches, which obviously got me into trouble. Any help is appreciated at this point, we're desperate and we want this thing to run before tonight otherwise we won't be able to sleep at all. I guess we'll learn now not to fix shit that ain't broken :(

1. Put seafoam into the gas tank, not down the carb. More likely to cause problems than to fix them that way.

2. You flooded it.

3. Plug your trailing ignitor back in properly. That's why the tach isn't moving any more.

4. Charge the battery back up overnight on a good charger. If you don't have one, some parts stores will do it for you for free.

5. Now, this may sound funny since you flooded it while using the seafoam, but seafoam is what's going to get you started again. Make sure the plugs are clean, then pour 2 caps full down the small (primary) barrels of the carb. Pump the gas two times, then crank it over and it will start. BUT DON'T TRY THIS UNTIL YOU HAVE A FULLY CHARGED BATTERY!. There are many ways to deflood a rotary, but I have found that the seafoam works best, and doesn't result in fouled plugs like most other methods.

Good luck man...

OK, this all sounds familiar. First of all, your battery is probably dead. Hook up a charger to it for a good long time. Second, it sounds like your trailing ignitor got disconnected somehow or is bad that's why the tach doesn't work. But it also cuts off the fuel pump, which means the car won't start because it's not getting any gas (how ironic).

To find out if this is the case, remove your fuel line into the carb and crank it (when you get the battery charged) you won't see fuel. No fuel means fix the ignitor, or if you want a quick way out, just hot wire the fuel pump with a wire running from the hot wire to the rear hatch light down to the pump, under the driver's side storage compartment.

Now you have also made a holy mess out of the chambers and your spark plugs with all that sea foam and stuff, so you need to clean that up. Once you have the battery charged up and the plugs out, spin it over to get out the misty stuff. Then put about 20 mls of automatic transmission fluid into the two carb primaries and turn it over again. The mist should be getting oily, without any gas or sea foam smell.

Let it set, spin it some more and make sure things are nice and clean in there, with a light oil coating to help out the apex seals.

Those plugs need to get real cleaned up, a wire wheel on a grinder does a good job and lots of compressed air to get out all that sea foam out. You might touch them up with a little sand paper and alcohol at the end.

Now put in the plugs, crank it over without any gas, then hit the peddle and pray. If it doesn't work, you may need to tow it down the road a bit.

Always worked for me.

Ray

I see since posting this that Ken's been there done that too.

Just a comment on the battery, it was bought new last month (Motomaster, fully charged and warranted) so I don't think there should be a problem but I can throw a (Motomaster!) charger on it overnight. I'll try getting the ignitor caps reseated too, I didn't touch anything in the engine bay after finding it didnt crank. We achieved a fucking 900rpm idle by fixing up the major vacuum leak with a t-joint and some extra hose in place of the original hose's bend, and this is a direct result of me and my friend saying "well it runs fine and we shouldn't touch it but maybe we should find a way to make it better." Guess you could just call us bored idiots :)


EDIT: Oh, and the other 15/16 of the Seafoam can was funnelled into the gas tank two days prior. I'll be stocking up on it tomorrow.

tow or push

Even a brand new batter can get run down by continuous attempts to start. Get a good charge on her, so you don't end up flooding it again.

Or, like Jeff mentioned, you can push or tow it...

Hey Iam having the same problem with my car! Iam not trying to hi jack the thread but what is seafoam? Where can I get some? :Wconfused

I get mine at NAPA. Any good auto store should stock it, just ask politely and you shall receive :)

I took the warranted battery to Crappy Tire today. The woman at the counter said her battery tester was reading the battery as overloaded (13V). I had left it on the charger for about 24 hours because the unit itself didnt show a change of status. The car, however, has a different story. The voltmeter on the dash reads just under 12V and when I try to crank it, it plummets to just over 8 and the dash lights dim to the point of being off. I put nice new terminals on the battery cables in addition to cleaning the terminals. I also cleared out all the ignition cabling and related connections with contact cleaner. Any idea as to what's happening? How do I do a safe spark test (the Haynes was a bit vague)?

I think it's seized... the main pulley is frozen in place. I'm assuming this is the large one at bottom, dead-center where the rotor shaft would be (if anyone has a pic they can point it out in that would help). I'm trying to turn it but no dice. This is really getting depressing as it was my fault... anything I should try to do before I do the ATF treatment? I'm afraid I popped an apex seal or killed a starter with all the cranking I did after the fact. Then again, it could still be the battery, but I won't be sure until I know which is the main pulley.

Damn, it sounds like she's locked up alright. You can try turning the main pulley (sounds like you've got the right one) back and forth a bit to work it loose. Maybe pull the plugs out, and shoot some seafoam in there and let it sit for a while. Forget about using ATF. Good luck man...

I called the previous owner (the owner before the skeezeball I had bought the car from). He said he offloaded the car because he was told there was coolant leaking into the engine as well as an oil leak, and the apex seals were wearing out. I'm afraid I have now pushed the engine to it's breaking point unaware of the consequences. All I can do now is try to assess whether it has more value as a rebuild or as a parts car, as I don't even have a penny to my name. Goodbye, initial expectations :sadwavey: I'm so depressed right now it isn't even funny.

Man that's a tough one. Take a deep breath and go back at it tomorrow. The main pulley it the big one at the bottom with about four grooves in it. The outer ones are for your accessories, AC and air pump. The inner ones drive the alternator and water pump.

Down in the center is a recessed nut, about 17 mm. Get a socket on that, put on the ratchet and try to work it lose. You can get a bit more leverage if you have a short piece of scedule 40 PVC tube you can slip over the handle of the ratchet. Work it back and forth to see if you can get it turning again. The ATF is a light oil that will provide some lubrication for this process, you can clear this out once you get it turning.

The good news is that's one sweeet looking 7.

Good luck!

Ray

Absolutely! just take a day off then get back to it, it looks straight and clean in the pic, so worth following on with i reckon. You've got everyone on the forum here to help you through any problems that come up as well..

All the best!

Paul.

Any strategies for getting that rad fan off? I can't unscrew the four bolts to disassemble it because the whole assembly keeps rotating. I tried a couple of times to access the main pulley bolt with the fan attached and all I have to show for it is skinned knuckles :)

Large slip-joint pliers, with a rag around the pully to prevent scarring. Hold on the front part of the pulley, or the fan clutch adapter.

I just take a screwdriver, and place it behind the mount so that it crosses between two of the bolts. Use that as a lever to keep the assembly from rotating...

I use two 10mm wrenches. One to hold one bolt in tighten-mode, which holds the fan and keeps it from rotating. The other to loosen one of the other bolts. I work my way all the way around. Once each bolt is broken loose, it snugs up again during the process described above, but is much easier to unsug them the second time around.

I've tried the screwdriver method but there is a chance of slipping. With access to two wrenches, it's made life better.

Word, 2 wrenches is the way to go.

With the two wrench method how do I get leverage for the last bolt? I'll likely need replacement bolts down the road as these ones are old and got pretty stripped when I worked them out.

While most likely not the correct way of doing it, I grab the belts and squeeze a little on them. That freezes the pulley and I can take off the bolt. It works for tightening too.

Put the belts back on and tighten it all up. Observe the rotation of the pulley and then stick a large screwdriver into the slot where the belt is going into the slot of the pulley as you try to loosen the last bolt. The pulley will stop rotating at some point and then you'll be able to get that last screw off...make sure the other screws are still on but one turn less than finger tight...or expect to lose more skin and blood...:rlaugh:

:cool:

That screwdriver in the sheave method is not a good idea if you're building a show car engine. Too easy to scratch the paint. :)

I might end up replacing the entire pulley system anyways and sacrifice the A/C (it has no use to me, real air conditioning = windows and sunroof open.)

I got the fan shroud and fan assembly off, that belt-pinching method worked magically. I might do a little write-up for the archive if it's something needed, any other noobs interested? Now, I have full access to that bolt (it's 19mm), which way should I be turning assuming I'm working at it from the driver's side; towards me or away from me? Or do I just try my best to loosen it both ways?

Frogblender, if you have the time, go for it. The more information the better available on the Forum the better it is for everyone.

I'll likely do a small write-up then once this problem is troubleshooted and I have everything back in place, then I'll photograph the removal process.:)

That bolt is tightened down with a very strong torque and it needs to be - I wouldn't take it off unless you have to. And if you do be sure to mark the position of the pulley timing marks so that you can put it back on the same way and not lose your timing. And read about it in the FSM or hayne's manual first.

If you are going to get it loose, put the car in low gear, set the emergency brake and have someone step hard on the brakes to keep the engine from turning over when you loosen the bolt. It's has normal threading so you need to turn it counterclockwise to loosen (away from you if you are on the driver's side). Use a 1/2" drive ratchet and a 2-3 foot piece of pipe or schedule 40 PVC to slip over the ratchet handle to provide grip and leverage.

When you put the bolt back in there are some special tricks that you should look up, it needs lock tight, a sealant to prevent vacuum leaks and a very high torque setting.

These are not professional instructions, just what worked for me one time when I got curious about that bolt.

And if this is all just for the sake of changing that pulley, you might want to have a closer look to see if it really needs it.

Good luck!

Ray

This is all just to unseize the motor. The pulley itself is fine.

If the motor doesn't spin easily with the 17 mm nut on the pulley. You may want to remove the starter and try to spin it again it could possibly be locked up, engaged.

Good, you want to loosen the motor, not the eshaft bolt. That makes more sense. The post above has a good suggestion, it is possible your starter is binding and keeping it from turning over.

The engine spins clockwise when looking at the engine from the front, so put the wrench on the 19 mm bolt and pull toward you when you from the driver's side. Try to spin it in the direction of rotation first, if that doesn't work go the other way, it can spin in both directions.

Again, a three foot pipe on the ratchet handle will give you lots of leverage. But if it doesn't budge fairly easily, I'd pull the starter first like db says. It is possible that it's binding up the flywheel.

Do I disconnect or remove the starter entirely? If it helps at all, my ignition makes a click when I turn the key to start and clicks when I turn it back, I don't know if that's normal behavior because I haven't gotten a chance to listen to the starter engage without the engine obviously coming into the picture!

That is probably the starter solenoid trying to engage and unengage. It can't turn the engine over because:

A. It's jammed or not working
B. Your engine is jammed or not working

I'm betting on the starter, only because it's cheaper. Take it out, it's a good learning experience and you can clean things up down there, chances are the wires and stuff are all covered in grease. Once it's out, take a 3/8 ratchet with a 19 mm socket and put it on your Eshaft bolt, the engine should turn over which means your starter is bad.

I'm betting on the starter, I've been driving these cars for years and never had an engine seize, though I worried about it a time or two.

Oh yeah, if you want to sell it, let me know.

Ray

I'll take the starter out today if the rain continues to NOT fall, if I can at least get it running then the rebuild might be easier for whoever I'd be passing it along to. How much does a decent replacement cost?

Also, I probably wouldn't sell the car at this point (attached to the little bugger, and there's still hope I can get it working well), but what would you pay for it? It seems I got shafted on the initial purchase at $800.

damnit, where is this starter motor? The Haynes isn't helping at all.

I'd pay $800 american if you lived near here. But chill your jets and calm you hormones, you'll get it running and mouthing off like me.

Oh yeah, could you send some of that rain down our way, we could use some.

Ray in Jefferson GA

The starter is underneath the car next to the transmission on the back side of the engine. on the driver side.

i looked through all the posts and since no one has said this and i didn't know if you knew or not but if your trying to turn the eshaft make sure the car is in neutral and not in gear

Ah yes, its always the simple things.....