if you are going to do the 2nd gen bb kit, just get the 5x114.3 kit from respeed, no use in buying twice.

good advice. Thank you.

Also I want to express my gratitude to all who have giving me good info.

So far all has been good.

Didn't have a chance to weigh the steering box and column today, will do it tomorrow after work.

Jason

The respeed R&P kit is a rack and pinion steering system. It replaces the stock gear box with something that works much better. :) So, you won't need a depowered box from another car.

Call a professional. Nothing against the advice here but there are really talented racers and builders that have been there - done that and can help. Charlie Clark for example - 4 time Solo II National Champion, many time Divisional Champion in ITA and E Production in a first gen RX7. www.kcraceware.com

As others have mentioned and a few seconded - buy the Jim Susko book. Well worth what he charges and the help he will give you as a part of the purchase price. For some background on Susko he is an accomplished Soloist (National Champion in a DSP X19) and Roadracer - ITA/IT7 RX7.

As far as the rear suspension goes....setting up a car with heavy springs and or a sway bar to avoid TOO much movement is like slapping a band-aid on a gun shot wound. The fact is that the four link rear suspension that came in our cars has geometry problem that is made worse by decreasing the compliance of the bushing material. Racers like Dave Lemon (www.Mazdatrix.com) that race in classes where the stock suspension is required (Pro 7) use new stock control arms not control arms with urethane bushings. From the Mazdatrix web site:

"We have found that the rear suspension on these cars needs to have soft rubber bushings in order to move properly. Replacing the bushings in these links with urethane or heim joints is not functional. In addition, as the rubber in these stock links ages, it becomes harder. If you are trying to make the car handle consistently, we recommend replacing all four links with new Mazda links.
The other problem area, especially on race cars, is the watts link pivot bracket. The studs welded into the bracket have a tendency to break off. We have developed a bracket that puts the studs in double shear and greatly reduces this type of failure."

Absolutly everything he is stating here is true and Lemon has the Pro 7 racing record to back it up. In fact KC Raceware owner Charlie Clark developed heim joint kits for all four rear links on his first ITA RX7 in the middle 90's - I know beacuse I installed them on his car. The result was a series of broken lower control arms. This was caused by suspension bind. Also - I have seen the watts link pivot failure first hand...This is not BS.

Okay, so what is the cure? A Tri-Link, Pan Hard bar and Hiems in the lower control arms. With a setup like this, guys like Jim Susko and Charlie Clark have won allot of races....me too. Both gforceengineering.net (Susko) and kcraceware.com (Clark) sell tri link kits. KC Raceware has also developed a successful watts link and 4 link setup for their E Production car.

If you don't want to mess with Heims on the street or are in a class where they are not allows then use urethane bushings in the lower arms or better yet call Clark or Susko and ask. Also there is a very successful 1st Gen CSP car called Captain America - I saw this car run at Solo II Nats many times, check out how it was setup http://clemsonscc.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=91703

Finally....and sorry for the looooong rant.....I am not picking on anyone here. I see some well intentioned advice from guys that are trying stuff and competing with some success. The deal is that the names I have dropped in this post are race winners driving cars that are very well prepared. The cool thing is that their knowledge and experience is available to you and it does work. Hell, I am a no-talent driver but with the input from these guys some days I am fast too.

Ok so I went to the respeed website and read the tutorial and studied the R&P stage 2 kit
I now understand that it uses the stock steering column w/o the steering box. It also looks that you replace and mod the collapse pin so that will be fixed and I won't need the depowered box as Kentetsu stated.

Ok, so who's installed this by themselves? I want to know how hard it was to install. It seems pretty strait forward. I'm by no way a expert mechanic, but a novice shade tree would be an appropriate tittle IMHO. How long did it take. I can roll on the bus, or steal the woman's car for a few days, but I can't have it off the road too long. I don't have a garage so I'm not waiting till winter. Plus we don't get snow too often so I'll be driving it through winter also.

Thanks for the offer but as stated above, doesn't look like I will be needing it. But if your willing to part with the electrical stuff and turn signal assembly I'll probably take that off your hands. Shipping would of been a real pita anyways.

well it only took me a few hours to put the crossmember in, though that was due to the new bushings not fitting correctly. we had to shave them to get them in there. I will be buying the rest of the kit later, but i will tell you that it is by far one of the nicest things i've seen

Well said :icon_tup:

Mustanghammer; once again great info. If you keep going on about the benefits of the tri/pan setup, you're going to make me install mine earlier than I planned just to see what all the fuss is about. :)

i want one, but i really need to have something i can dd

No prob, understood. I don't have any electronics for sale though, must have been someone else.

Jason

I was talking about the turn signal, and and headlight switch


thunkrd, is there a reason you couldn't DD a trilink/panhard? I'm going to dd mine unless theres a reson I can't

Yeah, I don't have that for sale, just the box and column.

Sorry.

Jason

Thanks for the offer though. It was appreciated

No problem, if you change your mind, and want the steering box, let me know.

Jason

ahhh, well from what i've read, it requires quite a bit more maintenance, also it's noisier. if this car was my track car, then definitely i'd put it in, instantly. but my car will be mostly a dd. my car is quite neutral right now, very controllable.

That's one reason I was thinking of not doing the 3 link/panhard. I was gonna go with a setup similar to kentetsu.

So, since we are discussing setups, here is a rough estimate of the plans for my 85 gsl that I am prepping for CSP auto-x use:

-Get the body straightened out.
-Rebuild the engine, delete all emissions junk, slap on pulleys, Sterling carb and ported manifold, RB header and streetport exhaust, alum flywheel and DF clutch, 2nd gen coil with HEI ignitor.
-Replace brake master/booster, flush lines, braided lines, new calipers, new rotors, Hawk HPP pads.
-Front suspension-Camber plates, poly arm bushings and solid link bushings (Respeed), Respeed bar, Respeed coilovers (375-400 LB), tokicos, strut bar, all new links/joints, new steering box (manual).
-Rear suspension-Revise watts link (lower pivot bolt .75" to help roll center), poly watts bushings, watts pivot brace, no bar, tokicos, respeed coilovers (175-200 LB), drilled upper arm bushings (lessen binding), new lower arms (mine are bent).

That's a rough list, there is probably more such as interior items and the such. The car wills till be street driven, so I was trying to avoid 3 link/panhard.

Jason

Forgot the most important part, 255-13 A6s on 13x10s.

Jason

does anybody know why you couldn't fanoogle some bushings in a panhard/trilink setup in place of the heims?

If you can buy heim joints for normally bushed connections, does it not stand to reason that the reverse is possible?

Jason, just a couple of thoughts:

1. HEI ignitor is not necessary to run the 2nd gen coil (unless there is some other reason you want to use one).

2. Those spring rates are very high for a street driven car. One of my competitors uses springs of that range, and he'll tell you right up front that the car cannot be driven on the streets like that. I have not driven a car with those kinds of spring rates myself, so the only knowledge I have of this is what he has told me (and what I've read from others).

3. Have you tried adjusting your current steering gear box? Mine was horrible until I adjusted it, and now it's just fine. Might be able to save yourself 800 bucks here.

4. If you are running a good front sway bar (like the Respeed) then you will probably want at least the stock rear bar to go with it. Otherwise understeer might be an issue (so don't throw it out with the trash).

5. Solid Link Bushings? Not sure what you mean. Are they CSP legal?

Everything else sounds good to me. I like the idea of improving the Watts linkage....

On the box, I already picked it up new from Mazda comp. Car had a power box, and I removed it, as it is not CSP legal to plug the lines (checked with SCCA).

On the link bushings, I think they are plastic. Respeed sells them. They aren't metal, so should be legal.

+1 on softer spring rate. I had 275/300 on the lancer. It was street driven, but rough. Long drives would tare my back up. I'm going lighter this time around. bounce is good, body roll is what you wan't limited.

Hiem joints do require a little attention and they absolutly will transmitt road shock and vibrations into the car. I run a complete nut and bolt check on my car between every race weekend. Most everything stays tight but the tri-link will loosen up where it mounts to the tunnel. Not "falling off the car loose" but it can usually be tightened up.

The Tri-link in my car is from Susko and it has a single shear mount in the drive shaft tunnel. The KC Raceware Tri-link uses a double shear mount at both ends and I bet this would help it stay tight.

To avoid some of this harshness it may be possible to use a urethane bushing at one end and a Hiem or rod end at the other. For sure this could be done on the panhard bar - I have seen allot of aftermarket kits for Mustangs that are made with urethane instead of rod ends. On the tri-link you may be able to do this where it mounts to the rearend. There is not enough room in the drive shaft tunnel, however.

You could make a urethane "rod end" easily using a stock lower control arm, lower control arm urethane bushing and a Grade 8 1/2" bolt that is about 1.5" long and has fine pitch. Here is how:

1. Take the lower control arm and remove the stock rubber bushings
2. Cut the ends off of the tube so you are left with the cylinders that used to hold the rubber bushings
3. Weld the 1/2 x 20 pitch bolt to the bushing cylinder
4. Install the urethane bushing

Now you have a "rod end" that has a urethane bushing. To finish a panhard rod you will need:

* 1/2 rod end with Left hand thread
* A swedged/threaded tube of the appropriate length that has right and left hand threads
* Right and Left hand thread jam nuts
* Mounts fab'd and welded to your rear end housing

Make sense or is this clear as mud?

You can get the materials I mentioned from circle track speed shops like www.Colemanracing.com, www.speedwaymotors.com, www.daymotorsports.com, etc. BTW - stock car race parts are dirt cheap and believe it or not some of that stuff can be used on a Mazda! Like plumbing parts, suspension pieces, springs, rear shocks, etc.

Street Prepared rules do not allow metal or metallic bushing materials in the suspension. So you have to use plastic (Urethane, Prothane, Poly-Graphite, whatever) in the suspension pickup points. Now the tri-link can have rod ends because it is defined as a traction aid. Check the rules at www.scca.com to be sure.

Interestingly enough my Improved Touring car can have metal bushing in the suspension - Hiems - and have a ball joint spacer. All of which my car has and I can run the car in CSP. However to do this, I have to run the car in IT trim. That means 7" wheels, stock carb, no port matching, no intake mod's etc. Yeah....not competitive at all.

Every car behaves differently to different spring rate. Some cars have over 300lbs spring stock and it is fine for daily

mustang warhamer, Great post. tons of good info in there.

I did like the hard springs, but I was just saying its a stiff ride. Oregon has some crappy roads. I don't know why but even when the repave. a year or so later back to crap. The construction never ends.

shocks definitely help with the stiff ride, the illuminas are amazing. the roads here are even worse. drove to bend / sunriver recently in the jeep. they don't seem too bad

As far as the springs go, it's not a daily driver, but will be driven to events, and taken for some drives, so I can deal with a slightly harsher ride due to springs, we'll see. I'm still doing the research, have a lot of work to do on the body before I even start thinking about the suspension.

Great info here, thanks for all of the posts.

Jason

I think you misunderstand the purpose of the collapse pin in the steering column. It does not matter if you have a 5-point harness or a stock seatbelt. The reason for the collapsability of the steering assembly is not to minimize damage should you slide forward and hit it. It's to remove the risk of the whole steering assembly ripping itself from its mounts and crushing your chest in a front end impact. This as you may have guessed, would most likely be fatal. At the very least, it might sting a wee bit. Do not replace the pin with set screw or anything other than the proper part. If it's broken replace it with the same part.

What kind of alignment numbers is everyone running? Looking for more aggressive setups, as this is more an autocross car than a street car.

Jason

For a CSP car without turn-in spacers, you will need a little bit of toe-out in the front. i am running -2.5 camber max caster and 1/8 toe out in the front.

1/8 degree?

on my car i'm almost done with my front coilover kit / big brake conversion. just waiting for the oven to heat up

Cool, thanks. Close to what I was planning.

Jason

1/8 inch of total toe out.

ok, thanks for the verification

What size rear bars are you guys running? Mazdatrix has 2 available, ST 5/8" 3 position adj and Racing Beat 3/4" slide adjustable.

Thanks,

Jason

i'm going to try the ST rear, for costs sake. it's a 60$ difference

I was leaning that way as well. Just want to make sure it's enough.

Jason

hi ,jason
I am trying the stock bar with urathan bushings and end links.

Let me know what you think.

Jason

I ran the car in Eastlake over the weekend, on a set of Kumho MX tires I did want to use the slicks there the lot is to small and there ar to many stones and holes. the car felt much better it didn't plow and I could kick the rearend out on the 180 deg. turns. I will be up in at the Chrysler plant in Perrysburg this weekend with the slicks. I will post up a report after that. my alignment settings are 1.5 neg camber full neg. caster and 1/8" total toe out.

Sounds good.

Thanks for the info Mark.

Jason

i put a manula rack in my 1st gen race car, who says its impossible?
all you need to do is find one that is the correct width with steering arms, and fab a bracket that gives you correct geometry......you may have to do some bump steer elimination and some mods to your spindle anchor point if you move the rack more forward, but having your steering more rear is beter and lower is better than higher.....

Ok so I ran the car on new slicks this weekend with all the new parts I put on.
the car still needs to be tweeked , I still am geting some understeer in tight corners and can't kick the rear out. But the car is very stable in sloloms and sweepers. More tweeking in a few weeks Iwill be running in Eastlake this weekend the lot is to small and to much debris.

What are you using for a rear swaybar? Also, do you have a limited slip rear end?

lsd=yes. stock rear bar w/ urathane bushings.

Just so we don't have to dig back through the entire thread to see if you listed this info, can you also answer these two items?

Spring rates
Front swaybar type

Thanks for the update.

Jason