85 gsl-se cutting out/hesitating
10-10-10, 01:48 PM
#1
85 gsl-se cutting out/hesitating
I have an 85 GSL-SE 110,000 MILES and here is what I've done:
FYI This car sat for three years.
1. Before attempting to start it I drained the tank, changed fuel filter, air filter, plugs cap, rotor, oil, battery and had to get an ECU because it was missing. Car turned over and ran on starter fluid but would not stay running.
2. Found I had a bad ignitor. Replaced it and car fired right up but idled erratically.
3. Next I pulled the tank, found sludge in tank and a hole in the pickup filter and pressure washed the tank and let dry. Put in new pickup filter (modified from O'Reiley), changed all rubber fuel lines and reinstalled tank. Ran better but no change in idle.
3. Changed all vacuum lines to silicone lines and replaced all fuel/water lines under intake while it was off. Ran better but still no idle change.
4. Changed BAC valve, adjusted idle according to FSM idles beautifully now.
Now is where driveability has some issues. Before it was all about idling.
At times it would act as though it was running on one rotor. In fact, it sounded exactly like an ATV motor. I finally wiggled the wire on the injector closest to the radiator and it would clear right up. ( I must add that the injector plugs practically disintegrated when I was changing the vacuum lines so I pulled out the connectors from the plug and JB welded them into the injectors. I now know you can get these from O'Reiley...DOH!!!)
5. So I ordered new gromments, O rings and caps for the injectors and reinstalled. During this same repair I noticed lots of trash in the top of the injectors so I cleaned them out with carb cleaner. I also reexamined the fuel line, filter and found lots of trash in the filter. (keep in mind I changed this filter before realizing I had a hole in the strainer in the tank) I replaced the filter, blew out the lines. Ran better but now had a hesitation or cutout under load, especially in second. Car idles and cruises fine though. It's under initial takeoff and any load in any other gear.
6. Replaced fuel pump because of, to me, excessive noise and the possibility that this 25 year old pump may be tired. New pump makes same noise and problem continues. Noise is coming from diaphram on the "out" side of the pump(what is that?)
7. Checked timing, found it off, set correctly.
Car still has miss. I might add that the cat has a hole in it and the TPS readings are off when measured in OHMS. FSM states 1.0 fully closed and 5.0 fully open. My readings are 1.0 closed and 4.64 fully open. It does however check out ok when testing with the dual LED checker. Could this be a problem especially at top end?
I hope this is clear. Please ask if you need more info. Sorry for the length. Can anyone advise next logical step?
FYI This car sat for three years.
1. Before attempting to start it I drained the tank, changed fuel filter, air filter, plugs cap, rotor, oil, battery and had to get an ECU because it was missing. Car turned over and ran on starter fluid but would not stay running.
2. Found I had a bad ignitor. Replaced it and car fired right up but idled erratically.
3. Next I pulled the tank, found sludge in tank and a hole in the pickup filter and pressure washed the tank and let dry. Put in new pickup filter (modified from O'Reiley), changed all rubber fuel lines and reinstalled tank. Ran better but no change in idle.
3. Changed all vacuum lines to silicone lines and replaced all fuel/water lines under intake while it was off. Ran better but still no idle change.
4. Changed BAC valve, adjusted idle according to FSM idles beautifully now.
Now is where driveability has some issues. Before it was all about idling.
At times it would act as though it was running on one rotor. In fact, it sounded exactly like an ATV motor. I finally wiggled the wire on the injector closest to the radiator and it would clear right up. ( I must add that the injector plugs practically disintegrated when I was changing the vacuum lines so I pulled out the connectors from the plug and JB welded them into the injectors. I now know you can get these from O'Reiley...DOH!!!)
5. So I ordered new gromments, O rings and caps for the injectors and reinstalled. During this same repair I noticed lots of trash in the top of the injectors so I cleaned them out with carb cleaner. I also reexamined the fuel line, filter and found lots of trash in the filter. (keep in mind I changed this filter before realizing I had a hole in the strainer in the tank) I replaced the filter, blew out the lines. Ran better but now had a hesitation or cutout under load, especially in second. Car idles and cruises fine though. It's under initial takeoff and any load in any other gear.
6. Replaced fuel pump because of, to me, excessive noise and the possibility that this 25 year old pump may be tired. New pump makes same noise and problem continues. Noise is coming from diaphram on the "out" side of the pump(what is that?)
7. Checked timing, found it off, set correctly.
Car still has miss. I might add that the cat has a hole in it and the TPS readings are off when measured in OHMS. FSM states 1.0 fully closed and 5.0 fully open. My readings are 1.0 closed and 4.64 fully open. It does however check out ok when testing with the dual LED checker. Could this be a problem especially at top end?
I hope this is clear. Please ask if you need more info. Sorry for the length. Can anyone advise next logical step?
Last edited by slvrghst; 10-10-10 at 01:50 PM.
10-10-10, 10:21 PM
#3
No not yet. They are JB welded to the injector and I'm afraid I may not be able to get the wires out now without damaging the injector. I do believe there is a good connection though. Do you think I may need to pull them and have them professionally cleaned?
I must add that it seems to be burning a lot of fuel as well.
This problem is also intermittent. The other morning I took it out and it ran beautifully. I came home parked it. Hour or so later took it out again and the problem showed up again.
I must add that it seems to be burning a lot of fuel as well.
This problem is also intermittent. The other morning I took it out and it ran beautifully. I came home parked it. Hour or so later took it out again and the problem showed up again.
10-11-10, 02:03 AM
#4
Check the ECU and EFI fusible links at the L/S fender well. Also, the noise from the pump-------I put 2 new bosch pumps on my SE and still had the same noise. Switched to an Airtex pump, noise went completely away and hasn't come back in over a year.
10-11-10, 02:34 AM
#5
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Even new TPS will typically read somewhere under 5. More like 4.8 or so. I don't think it really matters, unless it's reading way low, like under 4 or something. I'd check the airflow meter actually, to make sure it's measuring the air correctly. FSM has info on how to test it.
It does sound like a fuel delivery issue, though. Possibly injectors are clogged or something. First I'd test fuel pressure according to FSM, to make sure the pre-injector fuel pressure is good and that your pressure regulator is working. See if you can disconnect the injectors, and send them off for a proper cleaning/flow testing.
It does sound like a fuel delivery issue, though. Possibly injectors are clogged or something. First I'd test fuel pressure according to FSM, to make sure the pre-injector fuel pressure is good and that your pressure regulator is working. See if you can disconnect the injectors, and send them off for a proper cleaning/flow testing.
10-11-10, 05:36 AM
#7
most definatly remove the injectors and separate the connector from each injector. solder in new connectors.. send the injectors out to be cleaned properly. www.witchhunter.com is an outstanding company with around a 5 day turn around. replace the air bleeds.
next, readjust the tps. inspect the plugs, as the SE's 13B is sensitive to clean plugs and we reccomend the use of NGK's BR8EQ-14 plug. i also reccomend removing and cleaning the throttle body. ensure the main converter isn't plugged or starting to clog. there is another inline fuel filter (in the line actually) before the fuel pump that could be getting clogged. you may also want to replace the pickup strainer. they are still available from Mazda for around $30.
next, readjust the tps. inspect the plugs, as the SE's 13B is sensitive to clean plugs and we reccomend the use of NGK's BR8EQ-14 plug. i also reccomend removing and cleaning the throttle body. ensure the main converter isn't plugged or starting to clog. there is another inline fuel filter (in the line actually) before the fuel pump that could be getting clogged. you may also want to replace the pickup strainer. they are still available from Mazda for around $30.
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10-11-10, 09:19 AM
#8
Thanks for all the replies guys.
What is this inline filter mazdaverx713b is talking about? I know of the strainer in the tank and the main fuel filter. I did not see anything inline after or before the main filter and I did not see this screen filter on the pump everyone keeps mentioning. Also, does anyone know what that little diaphram looking piece is that bolts onto the "in" side of the bump with the banjo fitting?
mazdaverx713b also mentions a clogged converter. Mine is splitting along the side and at idle it really seems like very little pressure is coming out of the muffler while putting my hand over it. Should I be concerned? I do plan on changing that whole section out but not until I get it running right if it's not the problem.
I also have a bad brake booster. Could this be screwing with my vacuum?
Sorry to be all over the place with this guys but sometimes all you can do is fix what you KNOW is bad and deal with the remaining problems after. Seems like every time I fix one thing another arises, so I always question if I did something wrong, or the problem I fixed concealed or created the next problem, but please keep throwing ideas at me I'm confident we can get this worked out.
Before I send the injectors off and risk breaking them, I'm going to check pressure again and go over all the basics...again. I will post my results.
What is this inline filter mazdaverx713b is talking about? I know of the strainer in the tank and the main fuel filter. I did not see anything inline after or before the main filter and I did not see this screen filter on the pump everyone keeps mentioning. Also, does anyone know what that little diaphram looking piece is that bolts onto the "in" side of the bump with the banjo fitting?
mazdaverx713b also mentions a clogged converter. Mine is splitting along the side and at idle it really seems like very little pressure is coming out of the muffler while putting my hand over it. Should I be concerned? I do plan on changing that whole section out but not until I get it running right if it's not the problem.
I also have a bad brake booster. Could this be screwing with my vacuum?
Sorry to be all over the place with this guys but sometimes all you can do is fix what you KNOW is bad and deal with the remaining problems after. Seems like every time I fix one thing another arises, so I always question if I did something wrong, or the problem I fixed concealed or created the next problem, but please keep throwing ideas at me I'm confident we can get this worked out.
Before I send the injectors off and risk breaking them, I'm going to check pressure again and go over all the basics...again. I will post my results.
Last edited by slvrghst; 10-11-10 at 09:27 AM.
10-11-10, 10:20 AM
#9
When you check pressure again, also do a volume test. This will tell you if you have a partial blockage in your fuel lines or if the pump is weak.
Take off the feed line in the engine bay and put it into a gallon jug. Turn the key to 'ON' and prop the AFM door open. The fuel should start flowing. Time for 1 minute and then cut the key off. If the pump is working well and the lines are not clogged, the jug should be half full or more after 1 minute. If not, you probably have a blockage somewhere.
Take off the feed line in the engine bay and put it into a gallon jug. Turn the key to 'ON' and prop the AFM door open. The fuel should start flowing. Time for 1 minute and then cut the key off. If the pump is working well and the lines are not clogged, the jug should be half full or more after 1 minute. If not, you probably have a blockage somewhere.
10-11-10, 02:53 PM
#10
When you check pressure again, also do a volume test. This will tell you if you have a partial blockage in your fuel lines or if the pump is weak.
Take off the feed line in the engine bay and put it into a gallon jug. Turn the key to 'ON' and prop the AFM door open. The fuel should start flowing. Time for 1 minute and then cut the key off. If the pump is working well and the lines are not clogged, the jug should be half full or more after 1 minute. If not, you probably have a blockage somewhere.
Take off the feed line in the engine bay and put it into a gallon jug. Turn the key to 'ON' and prop the AFM door open. The fuel should start flowing. Time for 1 minute and then cut the key off. If the pump is working well and the lines are not clogged, the jug should be half full or more after 1 minute. If not, you probably have a blockage somewhere.
Last edited by slvrghst; 10-11-10 at 02:56 PM.
10-11-10, 03:23 PM
#11
It doesn't matter on the AFM door. Once it cracks open a bit, there is an internal switch telling the fuel pump to run. For the door not opening, was it just a matter of not reaching with your fingers or was there resistance making the door not open further? You can always use a screwdriver or a wood dowel to have a better reach to make sure that the door can easily open/close all the way.
On my friend's car, he had a similar issue, but was much worse. His car would idle great, but would die even trying to drive out of the driveway. He had replaced the pump, filter, etc. and same results. Fuel pressure tested okay (but the pressure did come up slowly) and the pump was noisy. Anyway, we tested volume and probably only got 8-10oz of fuel in 1 minute. In his case, the return/feed lines at the tank were totally clogged with crap. It was so bad, I don't know how any fuel got past it (plus it was really hard..had to chip it out with a screwdriver).
Your clog (if that is what it is) isn't as bad, so when you blew out the lines, the air might just be going past the clog. What you could do is disconnect the fuel line right at the pump and repeat the test. If the flow is good, then the clog is somewhere between the pump and the firewall. If the results are the same, the clog is between the tank and the pump (or the pump is bad).
If you wanted to test the pump, you could remove it and pump gas from one container to another.
You may also want to repeat your first test with the gas cap removed (sometimes a tank venting problem can cause a vacuum in the tank and lead to poor fuel flow).
Now this fuel flow problem might not be the only thing causing the problem (those injector connectors sound like a weak spot), but this is something that needs to be sorted out.
On my friend's car, he had a similar issue, but was much worse. His car would idle great, but would die even trying to drive out of the driveway. He had replaced the pump, filter, etc. and same results. Fuel pressure tested okay (but the pressure did come up slowly) and the pump was noisy. Anyway, we tested volume and probably only got 8-10oz of fuel in 1 minute. In his case, the return/feed lines at the tank were totally clogged with crap. It was so bad, I don't know how any fuel got past it (plus it was really hard..had to chip it out with a screwdriver).
Your clog (if that is what it is) isn't as bad, so when you blew out the lines, the air might just be going past the clog. What you could do is disconnect the fuel line right at the pump and repeat the test. If the flow is good, then the clog is somewhere between the pump and the firewall. If the results are the same, the clog is between the tank and the pump (or the pump is bad).
If you wanted to test the pump, you could remove it and pump gas from one container to another.
You may also want to repeat your first test with the gas cap removed (sometimes a tank venting problem can cause a vacuum in the tank and lead to poor fuel flow).
Now this fuel flow problem might not be the only thing causing the problem (those injector connectors sound like a weak spot), but this is something that needs to be sorted out.
10-11-10, 05:10 PM
#12
I almost ran that test without the cap just for grins. I will redo that test as well as test just past the pump to see if I can't narrow this down. BTW the AFM door moves freely I just had a tight space to open it. I ran it again with a screwdriver and got the same results. Now all the rubber lines from the tank to the pump are new but I didn't blow the hard lines out initially. My gut is saying this is between the pump and tank but I'm going to stay on track and follow your lead. Thanks for helping. I'll post my results.
Last edited by slvrghst; 10-11-10 at 05:14 PM.
10-11-10, 05:57 PM
#14
Right. That's nearly half a gallon.
Okay same results right after the pump. Is it time to pull the tank again?
FYI when I initially pulled the tank I was told that a replacement pickup filter was unavailable. So, I had to get creative. I used a pickup screen from O'Reiley and a piece of rubber hose and made one that way. The difference: the stock one is round and an inch or two tall. The fabricated one is a thin sock that sits flat and perpendicular to the pickup tube. Not sure if this is relevant. I'm thinking it may because maybe it's sitting to close to the bottom and not allowing proper flow.
Okay same results right after the pump. Is it time to pull the tank again?
FYI when I initially pulled the tank I was told that a replacement pickup filter was unavailable. So, I had to get creative. I used a pickup screen from O'Reiley and a piece of rubber hose and made one that way. The difference: the stock one is round and an inch or two tall. The fabricated one is a thin sock that sits flat and perpendicular to the pickup tube. Not sure if this is relevant. I'm thinking it may because maybe it's sitting to close to the bottom and not allowing proper flow.
10-12-10, 07:08 AM
#20
Pump inlet, but your new pump might not have it. I know the aftermarket pumps that I have seen never come with it. You either have to reuse the old one or find a new one. I'm currently not using the screen in mine because it was missing on the old pump and I didn't have a replacement.
When the tank was out before, did you look/blow through the pickup/return tubes the go in the tank? You might also have a blockage between the pickup at the tank and the inlet on the pump. Another friend had that issue. He bought an SE that had a pretty rotten tank. he cleaned/sealed and replaced pickup assembly. It was still cutting out when driving. We did the volume test and it came out low. He traced it back to somewhere between the tank and the pump.
As for what to do next, I would probably go in this order:
- Pull pump and check that inlet screen
- Test pump by pumping gas from one container to another (no use looking for a blockage if the problem is with the pump)
- Drop tank. Check pickup/return tubes.
- Replace all soft lines in rear part of the car
- Pull hard lines in rear of car. Clean/snake them out.
- While the tank is out, see if you can get a new pickup screen (OEM) or at least try to find a good used one.
Good luck.
When the tank was out before, did you look/blow through the pickup/return tubes the go in the tank? You might also have a blockage between the pickup at the tank and the inlet on the pump. Another friend had that issue. He bought an SE that had a pretty rotten tank. he cleaned/sealed and replaced pickup assembly. It was still cutting out when driving. We did the volume test and it came out low. He traced it back to somewhere between the tank and the pump.
As for what to do next, I would probably go in this order:
- Pull pump and check that inlet screen
- Test pump by pumping gas from one container to another (no use looking for a blockage if the problem is with the pump)
- Drop tank. Check pickup/return tubes.
- Replace all soft lines in rear part of the car
- Pull hard lines in rear of car. Clean/snake them out.
- While the tank is out, see if you can get a new pickup screen (OEM) or at least try to find a good used one.
Good luck.
10-12-10, 10:44 AM
#21
Thanks for all the replies guys.
What is this inline filter mazdaverx713b is talking about? I know of the strainer in the tank and the main fuel filter. I did not see anything inline after or before the main filter and I did not see this screen filter on the pump everyone keeps mentioning. Also, does anyone know what that little diaphram looking piece is that bolts onto the "in" side of the bump with the banjo fitting?
mazdaverx713b also mentions a clogged converter. Mine is splitting along the side and at idle it really seems like very little pressure is coming out of the muffler while putting my hand over it. Should I be concerned? I do plan on changing that whole section out but not until I get it running right if it's not the problem.
What is this inline filter mazdaverx713b is talking about? I know of the strainer in the tank and the main fuel filter. I did not see anything inline after or before the main filter and I did not see this screen filter on the pump everyone keeps mentioning. Also, does anyone know what that little diaphram looking piece is that bolts onto the "in" side of the bump with the banjo fitting?
mazdaverx713b also mentions a clogged converter. Mine is splitting along the side and at idle it really seems like very little pressure is coming out of the muffler while putting my hand over it. Should I be concerned? I do plan on changing that whole section out but not until I get it running right if it's not the problem.
my next suggestion would be to drain the tank and drop it. remove the pickup assembly and replace the pickup filter. also look in the tank for varnished or tar like gas, sediment, or a coating on the tank of filth. without a clean tank, the SE will never run properly, as its sensitive to fuel pressure.
10-12-10, 02:20 PM
#22
UPDATE.....
Everything from the tank to the injectors is clean and rechecked. Hard lines are clean, all rubber hoses new. Fuel pump has passed the volume test, fuel filter is new.
I pulled the tank and found rust scales again. Pickup filter was dirty as well. I'm researching ways to clean and stop the rust now. Local radiator shops do not want to touch it because "it messes up their tanks." I will have to find another way. I'd buy a new tank if they weren't $500. I've ordered a new pick up screen from Mazda just because I am not confident with the universal one I put on.
As far as the converter, the tube is intact its the actual converter seam that is splitting open. I plan on replacing all of that with the Bonez high flow converter pipe. It replaces everything from the manifold back to the rear connecting pipe.
Let me get this fuel issue fixed first. I will post my progress....
Everything from the tank to the injectors is clean and rechecked. Hard lines are clean, all rubber hoses new. Fuel pump has passed the volume test, fuel filter is new.
I pulled the tank and found rust scales again. Pickup filter was dirty as well. I'm researching ways to clean and stop the rust now. Local radiator shops do not want to touch it because "it messes up their tanks." I will have to find another way. I'd buy a new tank if they weren't $500. I've ordered a new pick up screen from Mazda just because I am not confident with the universal one I put on.
As far as the converter, the tube is intact its the actual converter seam that is splitting open. I plan on replacing all of that with the Bonez high flow converter pipe. It replaces everything from the manifold back to the rear connecting pipe.
Let me get this fuel issue fixed first. I will post my progress....
10-13-10, 08:10 AM
#23
For the tank, you could try a sealer kit. I used this one on a friend's tank:
http://www.kbs-coatings.com/Tank-Sealers_c_7-1-0.html
He had lots of little pin holes at the top of the tank and rust. This kit got it cleaned/sealed. It does take a few days to do it (several steps, letting solutions soak, dry the tank out, go to next step, etc.). Once you seal, I believe you had to wait like 72hr before adding fuel. If you use the KBS stuff, search online as I remember that had a coupon when I got some.
POR-15 also has a similar kit. Pretty much the same thing, but more expensive that the KBS stuff.
Sounds like you are making good progress.
Kent
http://www.kbs-coatings.com/Tank-Sealers_c_7-1-0.html
He had lots of little pin holes at the top of the tank and rust. This kit got it cleaned/sealed. It does take a few days to do it (several steps, letting solutions soak, dry the tank out, go to next step, etc.). Once you seal, I believe you had to wait like 72hr before adding fuel. If you use the KBS stuff, search online as I remember that had a coupon when I got some.
POR-15 also has a similar kit. Pretty much the same thing, but more expensive that the KBS stuff.
Sounds like you are making good progress.
Kent
10-13-10, 10:44 AM
#24
For the tank, you could try a sealer kit. I used this one on a friend's tank:
http://www.kbs-coatings.com/Tank-Sealers_c_7-1-0.html
He had lots of little pin holes at the top of the tank and rust. This kit got it cleaned/sealed. It does take a few days to do it (several steps, letting solutions soak, dry the tank out, go to next step, etc.). Once you seal, I believe you had to wait like 72hr before adding fuel. If you use the KBS stuff, search online as I remember that had a coupon when I got some.
POR-15 also has a similar kit. Pretty much the same thing, but more expensive that the KBS stuff.
Sounds like you are making good progress.
Kent
http://www.kbs-coatings.com/Tank-Sealers_c_7-1-0.html
He had lots of little pin holes at the top of the tank and rust. This kit got it cleaned/sealed. It does take a few days to do it (several steps, letting solutions soak, dry the tank out, go to next step, etc.). Once you seal, I believe you had to wait like 72hr before adding fuel. If you use the KBS stuff, search online as I remember that had a coupon when I got some.
POR-15 also has a similar kit. Pretty much the same thing, but more expensive that the KBS stuff.
Sounds like you are making good progress.
Kent
Any tips on covering all the openings? Anyone know where I can get a new pickup unit? I had to cut mine to adapt it to the universal pickup screen. Since I'm going back with the stock screen it may be too short (I had to cut about an inch). Found one in a salvage yard in SC for $75 but does that seem a little high or is that what I should expect?
10-13-10, 11:11 AM
#25
I used duct tape. Worked fine. I replaced it after each step because you'll add a solution, shake it up, let it sit, shake some more, then drain/rinse/dry/repeat.
You may may to borrow Mrs. slvrghst's hairdryer when she isn't looking to speed up the drying process (before the epoxy is applied).
The epoxy stuff can be messy, so put down a dropcloth or something in case you spill some. I got a little on the garage floor and now I have a nut that is really stuck to the concrete (haven't really tried to break it loose, but that stuff really grabs).
For the pickup assembly, I would put a WTB ad in the 1st gen classifieds on this site. There are also regional sections and you might want to check in there too (West section in your case). The SE stuff is a little harder to come by, but I'm sure you'll be able to find something.
While your at it, I would also hit the hardware store and pickup some stainless steel cap head screws (allen head) for the pickup assembly and the sender (M6X10mm is the size, I believe). These will be a lot easier to remove in the future.
You may may to borrow Mrs. slvrghst's hairdryer when she isn't looking to speed up the drying process (before the epoxy is applied).
The epoxy stuff can be messy, so put down a dropcloth or something in case you spill some. I got a little on the garage floor and now I have a nut that is really stuck to the concrete (haven't really tried to break it loose, but that stuff really grabs).
For the pickup assembly, I would put a WTB ad in the 1st gen classifieds on this site. There are also regional sections and you might want to check in there too (West section in your case). The SE stuff is a little harder to come by, but I'm sure you'll be able to find something.
While your at it, I would also hit the hardware store and pickup some stainless steel cap head screws (allen head) for the pickup assembly and the sender (M6X10mm is the size, I believe). These will be a lot easier to remove in the future.