rotaryboy23

iTrader: (1)

I know one of these appears every month or so, but I've got almost all the parts, an S5 engine, and I'm going ahead with it.

I've read every thread the search box came up with twice, but I've got final 3 questions that I'm not sure anyone will be answer:
1. 1st or 2nd gen strut tops/camber plates? I've got a great deal on some 1st gen coilovers and camber plates, so I'd like to use them. I think I've read about guys using both.

2. Will the Racing beat 2nd gen adjustable sway links be enough adjustment to line up the sway bar correctly?

3. Will the 12A tailshaft swap be enough of a move forward, or will I need to shorten the shifter?

Thanks to anyone who knows!

bshusted

iTrader: (1)

1. I've heard of people using the FC strut tops, but when I did my swap I used the FC struts, coilovers and the FB strut tops. I've you've got a deal on FB camber plates, go for it.

2. I don't think that the sway bar end links will be necessary. I used the stock FC links on my swap without any trouble. You will need to fabricate mounts on the "frame" for the sway bar bushings though.

3. Why are you swapping trannies or moving it? I mounted my subframe such that the transmission placement remained stock. Engine alignment was good and I didn't need to change/modify anything else down the driveline.

I hope this answers your questions. Pics and more info on my swap are in my sig.

rotaryboy23

iTrader: (1)

I've been looking for your build! Should have clicked on your goddamn sig. Man I'm a moron sometimes.
Hell of a build man.

I just confirmed buying the coilovers/camber plates for less than $300 shipped. Sounds like a solid deal to me. Too bad I can't use the struts.

I was planning on moving the subframe 1" or so back to center the wheels in the openings (like you did), and to use the S5 trans (the synchros are shot in mine). If I get my hands on an -SE trans would I not have to change anything? I can't tell which trans you used, except that it remained in the car for most of your thread pics, so I would think it was an SE?

Thanks a ton bshusted. You're the man.

bshusted

iTrader: (1)

No problem. The transmission is the original 12a one with 90k on it. bell housing and clutch were the same, so I used it. Seems to be holding up fine. I've never examined the S5 tranny next to an FB one, but I do remember people fabricating mounts for TII trannys, so I think something has to change. If you're planning to stay NA, I'd just find an SE or 12a transmission.

peejay

Mine is not the only way to do things, it's just the way that made sense for me. Here's what I did:

I was originally going to try to use FB strut tops but the FC struts (KYB AGX) would not fit in them. (I destroyed an FB top trying to drill it out, and I wasn't about to try grinding down my brand new KYBs) FC strut tops would take away basically all bump travel once you got the car down to an acceptable ride height.

So, what I did was, buy two new Escort ZX2 strut tops from NAPA. They mount the same way as FC struts (shaft stays still, spring hat rotates) but they have the same bolt pattern as FB. They are not a direct fit, however.

- I had to drill the strut tower holes out. FB strut tops use 8mm studs, Escort use 10mm.

- I had to use a file to enlarge the D-hole in the strut tops. FC struts are larger in diameter than Escort. By filing and not drilling, I retained the ability to tighten the strut down without needing a backup wrench to keep the strut from turning.

- I needed to fabricate a spring hat. I possibly could have tried using a modified FC hat, but as I was planning on using 2.5" springs anyway, fabricating was easier.

First, I ground off most of the ring on the underside of the strut tops.

Then, I took some 3/16" plate that I had lying around, cut 3" squares out of it, and used a Unibit to drill a hole large enough for the strut shaft to fit through. I went to the hardware store and bought three washers for each side: two that the lip of the strut bearing (pictured) would just fit into for the topside, and one that would center the 2.5" spring for the bottom. Two were needed for the top for depth reasons. Here's in-progress photos:





10" springs with the bottom 3/4 curl cut off provide for zero preload, and ride height about stock FB, or 1" or so higher than 2010 sagged-out-springs-FB. With 250lb springs, I don't use a sway bar, but I never run sticky tires on asphalt. If you're using heavier springs than that, and/or want to run a lower ride height and use coilover sleeves modded to the stock spring perch, I'd definitely run 8" or even 7" springs. Or use struts designed for coilovers. The FC spring perch is a lot higher up on the strut than the FB perch.

Incidentally, mounting this way makes bottom-out happen at the same point as the stock FB setup, which is right here, as displayed with 195/60-15 tires and no springs or bumpstops installed:




Mazda did a lot of work to get the hoodline as low as possible! It's amazing that they were able to pack a spring package into such a small height.

peejay

Other tidbits:

If you are keeping the front axle centerline same as stock, the engine will bolt in the same place as a GSL-SE engine. Meaning, the bellhousing flange will wind up in the same place as a stock FB (12A or 13B, they were the same). Meaning, you use a stock FB transmission, or a FC N/A transmission with the damper mass (if present) removed and the FB tailhousing/shifter assembly/speedometer drive and driven gears.

If you are swapping in a Turbo II transmission (this is unclear), you have to go through the Usual Hoops involved, with the custom driveshaft and the floor cutting or shifter modification. You can NOT use any N/A trans components (tail housing), they are different species! May as well try to bolt on a Miata intake manifold or something... it's just different.

I did not keep the axle centerline same as stock. This required a lot more screwing around, fabricating new motor mounts mainly, but also a lot of front wheelwell clearancing with a towel wrapped around the long handled 10 pound "adjuster tool". And some tin snip work on the fenders.

By the way - when I say the FC spring perch is a lot higher up, I am not kidding! I used to use the same style spring hats on my FB setup. 12" springs were a rattle fit! Now slightly cut 10" springs provide for about 1/4" of preload.

rotaryboy23

iTrader: (1)

Ah, I see. You modified the strut tops since you used 2nd gen shocks, while bshusted modified the strut bottoms to use 1st gen shocks. Some nice fab work to solve your problem there peejay! Maybe someone can sticky this or add the post to bshusted's thread, since it seems to be the most detailed subframe swap thread out there. additional info/methods is always a good thing around here!

I think I'll probably take bshusted's route since the coilovers/camber plates I'm buying is all first gen stuff, and my 2nd gen shocks are crap. Although this sale may fall through. Just noticed the guy was using a stock photo to sell used parts... A little suspect, I think. If that's the case, then it's back to the drawing board.

I was planning on using the S5 motor/trans combo, but swapping my 12A tailshaft. The synchros and clutch are shot in my 12A trans, so I didn't want to use it.

I may be able to get an SE trans.

Thinking outloud... If everything lines up the way it sounds like it used to for transmission, and because I have a hoist, perhaps I could bolt subframe/motor/trans together on an engine dolly, bolt in the SE trans and struts, and use that to help line up the subframe?

Peejay and bshusted, you guys have been an immense help! Also, if nofords is reading this, I owe him one for all the harassing PMs I've given him regarding this.

nofords

iTrader: (9)

1) I used 2nd gen Flea-bay camber plates. In my build thread, you can see what I used for shocks and coilover bits. There are part no's that will work with most FC stock replacement struts such as KYB etc...

2) In my application, for my ride height, the FC links are too long. I went to princess auto and purchased 3/8" heimjoints (one male and one female) out of the hydraulics section and threaded them together. All the way closed makes the correct length for 5" ground clearance and you can always increase from there. Also, you can use std hardware for install. Don't forget a 3/8NF jambnut.

3) It is more feasible to shorten the selector rather than swapping housings. It's actually not that hard and there is a thread that has a step by step pictorial writeup on how to accomplish this. Aside form that, you could go RX8 tranny...oops did I say that out loud?

Hey Mikey...When is thing going to be ready? Shoot me a PM and I will pop by and check it out!

peejay

Again, it made sense for me. The only good FB struts I had (Koni reds) were/are in a set of bent strut tubes. I was actually preferring to go the hacked FB strut body method before I found out how cheaply Summit sells the AGXs. $250 out the door, tax included, for the pair! (I did have a coupon for X off if you spend over $100, though... they keep mailing me those things)

And really, I wanted the ability to use wear items that I could just replace with off the shelf items instead of modifying everything. So it worked out perfectly.

The best way to line up the subframe is to measure, measure, measure. Don't trust where the engine prefers to sit, because that will be all wrong.

This partially why I slid the subframe an inch forward. That way, all I had to do was oval the front mounting holes slightly and use the factory front crossmember studs.

The whole suspension gallery from my build is at http://www.myspace.com/sprtusa/photo...over_ViewAlbum if you want to peruse. There's a lto of rearend too.

nofords

iTrader: (9)

True.

However, I found on my car, that the entire frame needed to be slid back 1.25" to get the wheel centered in the well. Ovaling the front bolt holes proved to be too far forward and you wouldn't be able to turn the wheels w/o crushing the front fender.

rotaryboy23

iTrader: (1)

WTF!? where are all these build threads suddenly coming from? I search and I search... Christ you put a lot of work in to that formerly rusty piece of ****! lol I had that car at my place for a while, and finally decided it couldn't be done with my (pathetic) budget and capabilities. You've really given that thing another shot at life! it looks great! Super low. Just the way I like 'em.

Looking at your coilover/camber setup, I'm amazed you need a spacer and flares to run a 225 tire. Lower profile for me, I guess, since I'm not racing it. I've got a free set of turbo wheels to test fit with, so at least I won't be making any expensive miscalculations...

With your swaybar, I can't find any pics in your thread. Did you keep the 1st gen mounting location and modify the links? Looks like bshusted changed the mounting position and kept the links. Either wouldn't be too difficult, but I'd like to stay away from the heim joints for noise reasons. Still driving a street car. This leaves either the Racing beat adjustables ($70! ouch!) or bshusted's solution.

I'm going to try to work on it during the 3 weeks off school I have in December, but I'm also on call for work during most of that time. It's very difficult to say what I will/won't get done. I wanted to get as much info together as I could before diving in. Once I have something substantial done, I'll give you a ring!

I'll also almost be at the end of my budget for parts by the end of this week. Still debating the 6-port carb setup or EFI... I've got fuel pumps for both, but carb is easier, but more expensive... I'm an EFI noob... Haven't had time to read the S5 swap tutorial yet.

Thanks for the tips. AGAIN. lol I'm really looking forward to doing this though.

rotaryboy23

iTrader: (1)

While I was reading and responding you guys both posted. lol
peejay, thanks for the link! Will definitely go over those soon.
I guess you're rallying your car, and swapping suspension parts might be a more frequent occurance for you than it should be for me. lol

If I swap tailshaft housings, I can use my 12A driveshaft though. If I keep the s5 tailshaft housing, I need to shorten the shifter and get an SE driveshaft? Or am I reading that wrong. never had them side by side. I can figure that out when I get there, I guess.

nofords

iTrader: (9)

The reason I need the spacer is to get the tire to miss the adjuster nut of the coil over setup. If you go with a shorter spring, you will not need the spacer. This is what I am going to do for next season.

The sway bar is mounted to the frame ahead of the subframe in the approximate stock FC location. you will need to round out the pinchweld to allow the swaybar to clear. I'm also not a big fan of the stock links either, yet another reason why I changed. The heimjoints are more reliable and are less expensive than new links that will eventually fail.

EFI is easy. the easiest I've found for the S5 is to run a RHD wiring harness. It has the CAS wiring in the main harness and you run it out the pass side grommet facade (drill 2" hole like driver's side) and then you need to find a car side (chassis harness) plug and add your power, gauges and voila.

I, myself need another s5 chassis harness plug for another project I have on the go.

peejay

Yeah, Mr. Sledgehammer made short work of the inner fenders.

The pop up motors still have room to function, but only just barely.

nofords

iTrader: (9)

I am running a T2 trans so my situation is a little different. I have a GSL-SE rear which may have a different flange than an GSL. However, all N/A 84-91 Driveshafts all share the same u-joints so you can take your shaft, swap out to a S5 N/A trans slip yoke and you can be sure to have the correct yoke and change the u-joints while you're there.

For those that are interested, I swapped out the SE slip yoke for a S4 automatic slip yoke with new RDL u-joints and it fits nicely to the t2 trans. At 0 deg (level) on the d/s, i have 1/2" I/O of travel left.

peejay

All N/A manual and 3-speed automatic transmissions are the same length and the same output size/spline.

Therefore, if you're putting an N/A trans in, you use your existing driveshaft. It will work. There are only three 1st-gen driveshafts. '79-82, '83-85 manual/3-speed auto, and 4-speed auto. The main difference is the flange on the differential end. (4-speed autos are longer because of the overdrive unit, so they take a weirdball short driveshaft. I kind of want to find one so I can do a few inches of engine setback without a custom shaft... )

I have run a late SA trans, various series 2 and series 3 transmissions, a GSL-SE transmission, a series 4 N/A, and a series 5 N/A trans. Basically I use whatever I have available to me. The ratios and such are a little different (mainly 5th) but they all plug in to the same spot with the proper tailhousing on it.

bshusted

iTrader: (1)

EFI is the way to go. I managed to buy a complete body and engine harness for a S5 in the classified section with the ECU for $100. Then I spend a day pruning out the wires I didn't need until I had essentially a standalone engine harness minus any sort of emissions stuff. Just ran it though the hole on the passenger side where the 12a "ECU" used to be.

As far as the end links go, I'll probably go to heims as the stock links wear. I wouldn't be too worried about noise from these. Most of us have exhaust that is less than quiet and any little clicking from the joints (shouldn't me much) would go unnoticed. Just my 2 cents.

82transam

iTrader: (18)

Yeah I have the re-speed sway bar which has heim joint style links, you don't hear them at all.

BTW, some good info in this thread!

rotaryboy23

iTrader: (1)

List of parts purchased in the last week:

Poly control arm bushings
Moog ball joints
KYB AGX adjustables
A1 Racing 2" coilover sleeves, adjusters, and supporting accessories
175lb 2.5" springs SSS springs
camber plates
s5 wiring harness

this better ******* work, I've got well over $1k into it by now! lol

On that note, who's running 5x114.3 rear and how? Darin, don't bother answering. I see your sexy wilwood setup.

bshusted

iTrader: (1)

Since the track widths are different front to rear with the FC subframe, I'm running adapter spacers. Kills 2 birds with one stone.

rotaryboy23

iTrader: (1)

^That's what I had planned to do, but can't find anyone who will make them for 4x110 to 5x114.3. You're running the 4 bolt 2ns gen stuff, right? I think the holes overlap, which presents a problem. I may be able to get my axles redrilled for cheap, in which case I think I could use re-speed's bb kit, without the Moser axles... (only an S5 NA motor, so no point...yet.)

peejay

That's a downside to the swap - the track width is NOT significantly different.

I was expecting MAD NEGITAVE CAMBAR with the FC subframe, but with the non-offset strut mounts, camber was close to zero at ride height.

Four camber bolts ($7 for (Progress?) at Summit scratch-n-dent... were for a Escort/Protege but it's the same parts!) fixed that right up. Strut tops are a nicer way to do it though since strut tops will wonkify the camber curve in the correct direction - negative camber with strut tops will increase the curve, with bolts will decrease it. It's all in the angle of the strut shaft. (Well, not ALL)

bshusted

iTrader: (1)

The adapter spacers I'm running were custom made by a machinist who autocrosses with me. 1.5" per side. I'm running 4 lug but I sure he could have made 5 lug just as easily. I can ask him about it for you if you'd like. He's here in MI so you'd have to add on shipping.

@peejay: You say that the track width is not that much different, but the width from hub to hub is. Track width is measured at the center of the wheels not the outside of the hub surface. The FC achieved this by running higher positive offset wheels than the FB. By my measurements, the hub to hub difference is a touch less than 3" from FB to FC with the FC being wider.

This is further evidenced by the wheels I put on after my swap.

I used to be able to tuck these wheels inside the fender lowered down. Wheels are 14x6.5 +6.

By contrast, these wheels are 15x7 +40. Look at the difference.


I too was expecting a lot of negative camber, but is very manageable. I think I am currently at -1.25. Eventually I will get some camber plates so that I have some more adjust-ability.

nofords

iTrader: (9)

rotaryboy...

why don't you sell your 15" 4x110 wheels on here and use the cash to buy new wheels to match the 5x114.3 bolt pattern?
E-bay has the correct offsets listed for staggered xxr G35 wheels. +35 in front and +20 in the rear and $450 for the set! Would be ideal for your setup. Perhaps not even requiring the use of my eastwood fender roller!
I have the template to plasma cut brackets to run vented 5lug rotors and 2nd gen brakes. Ask nicely and I might even make a set for you!

No one makes spacers that convert stud quantities only patterns between equal number of studs because of strength issues. if you find someone that does, don't buy 'em!

you may find that 175lb springs will be a little squishy on stock shocks. try them and see. they are only $60/pr to get new ones.

peejay

The FC wheels are about the same offset as GSL-SE. Of course you have to run wheels of the correct offset, but my point is that the FC front end is not significantly wider, or even noticeably wider.

4-lug to 5-lug adapters are not uncommon. They're all over the place in the VWAG world.

Personally, I'd just redrill the 5 lug brakes and use them on four lug hubs on the front, and use GSL-SE in the rear. I don't quite understand the hardon for five lug wheels.

I mean, for that matter, why not convert to six lug? That's what Vipers and CTS-Vs have!