13B swap
 

does anyone actually make a 13b "swap kit" or is it just a do it yourself thing? sorry for the stupid newb question, i dont own a 1st gen but maybe soon, found a nice one i might pick up within the next week or 2. thanks guys

ps. if not, what all is needed? and howm uch of a hassle is it :dunno:

mazdatrix sells a motor mount for the 13b in SA/FB chassis. You can bolt the 13b up to your stock tranny if you use the 12a flywheel and clutch. Carbureted is the easiest way to go as you don't have to worry about the wiring as much...may be a tit bit more spendy depending on which carb kit you go with or else you can buy used and it will save you a few hundred.

if you don't plan on going turbo, 2.5" all they way back is your best bet. I think you can buy a 13b RB header for the 2nd gen and that should work fine. You will need to get an aftermarket fuel pump also, depending on if your going FI or carbureted, Holley should have you covered and I think Summit or racingbeat has both pumps.
Thats all the info I can supply for now.

Sorry, I need to correct part of this statement. The flywheel is part of the balance assembly of the engine, and as such should remain with the same engine. All of the NA trannys will bolt up to 12A or 13B NA's without changing the flywheel. There is a difference between the SA/FB trannys and how they mount in there respective models, along with shifter configuration and clutch diameter, all of which can be worked around in one manner or another. The S4/5 trannys, NA and turbo, present a different set of issues, but can modded to use in a 1st gen also.

do it yourself thing.

I digress :)

A 13B engine as a whole, is not hard to mount in a 1st gen.The GSL-SE 1st gen came factory with a 13B.

If you are reffering to a TII 13BT,then no, there is no "kit" to do it.The mounting up is no more difficult than any other 13B,you use all factory parts just like a GSL-SE.But the wiring and fuel system must be made from scratch or adapted from FC components.

Our cars are too old to get much attention from the modern aftermarket like Hondas and the like, from the mid/late 90's.

Just change the front cover, I believe that will put the mounting bracket on your engine if you have it. I think that was worded wrong.....

ill be more specific... im gonna drop a 13b out of a 3rd gen rx7, and it will be FI, the car currently has a 12a in it, manuel... so hard to swap or no?

Lots of custom mounting work. The 13B-REW has rear mounts on the engine. The 1st gens mount with the front cover, the 2nd gens mount at the center iron, S4's can be front mounted with little work other than changing the front cover, the S5's need more mods due to it's electric mop, which the S6 has also. No, it is not an easy swap and a 13B-T is a better choice.

While the REW engine puts out more hp stock, it is a pita to work with and trouble shoot and they usually have a shorter life due to the twin turbos and extra under hood temps they put out. An S4/5 can be easily modded to put out equal or greater hp for less money, ease of installation and greater longevity.

well shit, let me restate again... it doesnt have the be a 3rd gen engine, all i want is a 13b block to drop in it and throw my own turbo on it, so i guess a 2nd gen tII engine will do just as well, what ever is easiest to do. so long as i cant throw a turbo on it and its 13b fuel injected

Depending on budget, an S4 is the easiest option. Depending on turbo, you may need to go standalone.

We get these queries all the time, the more info you can provide on components and purpose, the more detailed answer you will recieve.

can you get a stand alone for an s4? who makes one? i know the power fc but i thought it was only with fd ecu's or does someone make a harness converter thing

:bsflag:
With equal modifications, and comparable Turbos/Boost levels, the S6 will have greater longevity.

Read more carefully before you raise the bs flag.

IBTL!!
j/k

microtech makes the whole engine management system but they are a little spendy. you can go with something like this for cheaper though... http://www.pocketlogger.com/ I don't know anything about it, but I hear that it works

Megasquirt
 

I thought my 1st gen plan was off cause the first guy backed out of the deal... but I found another one for sale in better shape for $250 bucks :ylsuper: Though its a 4 hour drive :wallbash: but thats not a big deal to me

another newb question... possible or no? a 13b from a late fb, rebuilt, can it hold boost? and can it bolt up to an 83 12a chassis? or can i just take the front cover from a 13b out of an fb and bolt it to a 13b from a tii? :dunno:

Im using this old thread to avoid making another new 13b swap thread. im still looking into the difficulty of the install, and was wondering is a 13B from a GSL-SE would be any easier or any less work since its already meant for a 1st gen chassis? Planning on just buying a rebuilt, paying the core charge and then starting the turbo build, buying parts as i need them.

A non turbo 13B isnt the same as a turbo 13B.

The turbo has 4 intake ports and an intake manifold thats more conducive to turbocharging.Its made to be turbo from the factory and theres little screwing around involved to make it work right.Plus the block is stronger and the compression ratio is lower.

The 84-85 and 86-92 non turbo 13B engines are 6 port and have a complicated intake system that's designed and tuned, to make maximum power with natural aspiration.Slapping a turbo onto them is possible and people have done it,but it upsets the balance of the engine's design,as a whole.You can mix and match some of the intake systems,but none are a simple bolt on,so theres more screwing around that you have to do.

For a simple,no nonsense turbo 13B setup than wont drive you crazy and require a bunch of comprimises or alterations......you cant beat a S4 TII engine.The 87-88 TII is easy to find,factory turbo ready,and the simplest to bolt into an FB chassis.The factory ECU can be made to work and will make about 250HP with bolt-ons.A standalone will make as much power as you can afford,but its pricey and cannot be smog legal.
Any 13B can physically be bolted into an FB,but the variations between the 4 types of EFI 13B...... S3-S4-S5-S6...... makes each one more difficult than the next...in that order,I might add.Adding a standalone ECU makes the whole thing simpler,but its also more $$$ and will require tuning.

thanks for taking the time to reply. i kinda realised what i asked and answered myself after i posted this. let my hands get ahead of my brain. i shoulda thought about what i was asking first :rlaugh: 4port vs 6port, already turbo vs not turbo... sorry i wasted your post time :uh:

No problem.
Even if you didnt need the info,someone else might have,and thats why were all here right?

:sigh: ............its just too bad this will all be buried in a day or two and the same question will be asked again!!....heh,heh....

so true, i see a new topic on swaps or builds every few days, need to have stickies for each category, 1 for 1st gen swaps, 1 for carb problems, ect. *hint hint mods* :icon_tup:

I think I have a question that hasn't been covered specifically yet.

What do i need to do to put a '91 13B into my '80 12A SA?

So far all I have heard is that I need to change to front cover to a 12A or 13B from a '84 or '85 GSL-SE. But then I have also heard that I need an Oil Pan from a '84 or '85 GSL-SE? I dont know why for sure, can someone explain. And then I think there is something about the Oil Injection pump or watever its called haveing to be changed or something? CAn someone help me understand this and is there anything else I need to know?

P.S. I have the engine, transmission, alternater, Coils, ECU, and wire harness from the '91, and i want to put it into my '80 SA, except I will probably run it with a MegaSquirt EFI

To bolt the engine in you need any 1st gen. front cover and a GSL-SE oil pan. You must also address the fact that the crossmember is further back in a 12A car. That means you need to either slot the holes in the crossmember and engine bracket to account for the 20mm difference or buy the bracket from Racing Beat that is designed for putting a 13B into a 12A car.

If you're running MegaSquirt there is no issue with the OMP. You can run a 1st gen OMP or just premix.

Search for posts made by Steve84gs. He is the goto guy for the S5 swaps in 1st gens, By going MegaSquirt, you can eliminate some of the issues related to the electronic mop, ecu and limp mode that make the S5 swap a little more difficult when compared to the S4 swap.

You can eliminate the electronic mop, but you will need to pre-mix. This only works if going with a standalone ecu. You will need the SE oil pan. If premixing, either the 12A or 13B front cover will work, along with the oil pickup tube. The SE front mount bar makes install easier too.

How does it do that?

There is a slight difference between the 12A and 13B front engine mount bars. 12A can be modded, 13B is bolt in.

The 13B bracket does not allow you to bolt the 13B straight into a 12A car. The difference is in the crossmember. That is why RB make a bracket specifically for this application.

Really? I'll will have to check that out. It was my understanding the difference was in the mount that bolts to the front cover, not the cross member. I have both brackets on the shop, I'll see if I can find them for comparision. I don't have the SE cross member.

REVHEAD, you are correct. I didn't realize the crossmember was different between the 12A and 13B chassis. Thanks for pointing that out.

Yep,it is in the crossmember....but its a minor bit of work to slot the front mount bar to make it all work.Or just buy the Mazdatrix mount.
I was unaware of the difference back in the late 90's when my first (carbed) 13B went in. A little grinding and everything was fine.I did use the correct 13B right side rubber mount.I think that makes the whole, line-it-up job a little easier.

If your gonna run any 13B and ECU from 89-92,your gonna need to adress the metering oil pump.It cannot be removed from the electrical system or the ECU will go nuts,and it wont bolt up to any 1st gen front cover without mods.There are several ways you can approach this problem.Some are simple,other are complicated...but only a couple are really "correct" and would be worth recommending......

1st.....Modify the front cover to accept the MOP.
Thats what I did.It best replicates the stock S5 setup,and keeps the ECU happy while also having the MOP bolted up and plumbed to the engine in a conventional manner.The mods to the front cover involved heli-arc welding the cover,machining the pad flat and drill/tapping new holes for the S5 OMP.....cost about 175 bucks and took a week to get back.Worked great for years now.....

2nd.....Install a complete 2nd gen front X-member.
This is a project in itself,but it will make the 2nd gen engine bolt right up in a completely stock config.It will also give you the much improved 2nd gen suspension,steering and brakes....all of which are great mods on a 1st gen.Not many have attempted this job, and few(if any) have much real time experience that they've contributed to us here,in regards to how safe or complex/complete this swap is.I know it can be done,but its more or less uncharted territory(unless someone wants to speak up!)

3rd.......Run a standalone.
Fine, if you can swing the cost and tuning required.Standalones are reliable and abundant,but can cost some bucks. Also it will never be smog legal and will require re-tunes if you modify anything.One of the simplest and the best power making way to go,but there are pluses to running the stock ECU as well.

4th.....Plug in the MOP,tie it off to the side and run premix.
By far the simplest way to go,I proved it would work for the week my front cover was being made.Premix is proven to work great on rotaries and you can run syn. oil in the pan now.The MOP stays plugged in to appease the ECU,although its not actually delivering any oil.And thats the catch....without any oil running through the pump,theres no telling how long the unit will hold out.The metered oil provides lubrication to the internal parts of the MOP before its delivered to the engine.With the electricals plugged in,the metering parts of the MOP are still moving and sliding,in tune with the electrical stepper motor,which is operated by the ECU.The stepper is equivelant to the mechanical pull linkage of the older engines.

5th.....Have the stock S5 ECU reprogrammed to delete the limp mode.
Not sure if this has been done yet.Might be worth asking around.It would allow you to just delete the S5 MOP and run premix or rig up an older mechanical MOP on the front cover.

6th....Run the S5 engine with S4 controls and ECU.
Kinda a step backwards,but I also did this for a short time before getting my S5 setup all ready.The S4 uses a mechanical MOP that will bolt right up to an SE front cover.The S4 controls/ECU are dumber and more restrictive,but they will work with a S5 engine and manifolds/turbo.I dont recommend going too high with the boost in this configuration, however.

Wow! Thanks for all the good info!

And now I'm wondering about the transmissions. Can I put the tailshaft from the older transmission onto the newer one? because the shifter location is different

Also been covered a million times.Search,youll find all you need regarding the TII trans swap.

The shifter on the TII tranny can be moved forward by pulling the tailcone,cutting the selector shaft down an inch or so,then installing the 1st gen shift tower onto the TII tailcone.That will keep everything inside the TII trans stock so theres no strength issues,but the shifter will be dead center in the stock 1st gen tunnel hole.....like this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...y/DSC01491.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...y/DSC01505.jpg