Stock seals and 6 port turbo
08-26-13, 09:19 PM
#1
Braps on Braps on Braps!
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Stock seals and 6 port turbo
Ok so this isn't about a 6 port turbo with stock seals. I have 2 separate curiosity's at the moment. First, how many of you high horsepower guys out there are using stock apex seals? I've heard of a lot of people swearing by stock seals and saying there is no reason to switch over as long as you have the right tune. So I'm just curious as to why there are some of you who are so die hard Mazda seals. Second, how many high horsepower 6 port turbos are out right now? And I don't mean 6 port turbo with T2 internals I mean a legit 6 port turbo. Rebuilt or not I want to know how many success stories there are! I figure this could spark up some conversation with us guys who actually are consistently on the forums.
08-27-13, 02:06 PM
#2
some people are die hard OE on the seals, those who build the engines for a living know there are better alternatives to replacing costly parts when the seals do take a ****(and likely they eventually will).
there's nothing wrong with the OE seals- in stock applications, but when they do break they damage almost everything in the affected chamber and ultimately could take your turbo with them. the "unbreakable seals" you see some using will usually only take a minor chip out of the seal with little to no damage of critical parts and the turbo, the downside is a slight loss of life expectancy to the seals and possibly the housings as well.
OE seals were designed for longevity and they do their job well, but in the event of failure the cons weigh in heavily.
for me, i run the unbreakable type seals on anything making over 200whp. reason being that is the point where the seals can quite easily break down in the event something goes wrong with the fuel system, ignition system or anything internal in the engine not working exactly as it should. the unbreakable seals usually can handle a bit more abusive treatment before giving up versus the brittle OEM seals which can let go even the event of a minor hiccup with anything outside of the engine.
on the dyno for example, i have pushed non OEM seals beyond the point i know the OEM seals would have given up. sometimes this is unavoidable and it can be a costly learning experience which some of us do not have the luxury of continuing to make when your reputation is on the line.
which is cheaper? a rotor, housing, turbo and part set of seals or possibly just a single iron? for me the answer is a no brainer, especially when dealing with higher than ideal compression ratios which give even smaller safety buffers. if you stud the engine the possibility of breaking an iron is lessened to near 0, with the next only possible failure mode being a warped apex seal, dented rotor or scuffed corner/side seals(rarely all 3, usually the problem can be reversed quite easily versus replacing expensive parts, again).
even if an aftermarket seal does chatter a housing i can resurface the housing true again multiple times before the housings are worn to no life left. over several years of doing the resurfacing process i haven't seen any ill effects of life expectancy as some will argue(no less beyond what they would have if untouched, except compression, initial starting, vacuum and power improved), in some cases i re-resurfaced housings that went into failure modes and brought them back to usable condition. most of those housings already had 150k+ miles on them and had very minor wear in several years of use even with aftermarket seals.
the chrome layer on the housings can take a bit of abuse, with the exception being a cast iron OEM apex seal spit into it and drug across at 3,000 revs(1/3 crank speed).
when i build an engine my aim is to make it last, not to just make it through the 1 year warranty period(with some exclusions, ie engines built solely for racing which i cannot monitor). buffers are a way of improving your reputation as a builder, regardless if you are at fault there is always someone trying to throw you under the bus even if they can't build a car to save their life.
biased? probably. i've pulled apart too many blown motors to want to ever see such carnage again. parts become more scarce with each passing season to not be, sacrifices must be minimized.
there's nothing wrong with the OE seals- in stock applications, but when they do break they damage almost everything in the affected chamber and ultimately could take your turbo with them. the "unbreakable seals" you see some using will usually only take a minor chip out of the seal with little to no damage of critical parts and the turbo, the downside is a slight loss of life expectancy to the seals and possibly the housings as well.
OE seals were designed for longevity and they do their job well, but in the event of failure the cons weigh in heavily.
for me, i run the unbreakable type seals on anything making over 200whp. reason being that is the point where the seals can quite easily break down in the event something goes wrong with the fuel system, ignition system or anything internal in the engine not working exactly as it should. the unbreakable seals usually can handle a bit more abusive treatment before giving up versus the brittle OEM seals which can let go even the event of a minor hiccup with anything outside of the engine.
on the dyno for example, i have pushed non OEM seals beyond the point i know the OEM seals would have given up. sometimes this is unavoidable and it can be a costly learning experience which some of us do not have the luxury of continuing to make when your reputation is on the line.
which is cheaper? a rotor, housing, turbo and part set of seals or possibly just a single iron? for me the answer is a no brainer, especially when dealing with higher than ideal compression ratios which give even smaller safety buffers. if you stud the engine the possibility of breaking an iron is lessened to near 0, with the next only possible failure mode being a warped apex seal, dented rotor or scuffed corner/side seals(rarely all 3, usually the problem can be reversed quite easily versus replacing expensive parts, again).
even if an aftermarket seal does chatter a housing i can resurface the housing true again multiple times before the housings are worn to no life left. over several years of doing the resurfacing process i haven't seen any ill effects of life expectancy as some will argue(no less beyond what they would have if untouched, except compression, initial starting, vacuum and power improved), in some cases i re-resurfaced housings that went into failure modes and brought them back to usable condition. most of those housings already had 150k+ miles on them and had very minor wear in several years of use even with aftermarket seals.
the chrome layer on the housings can take a bit of abuse, with the exception being a cast iron OEM apex seal spit into it and drug across at 3,000 revs(1/3 crank speed).
when i build an engine my aim is to make it last, not to just make it through the 1 year warranty period(with some exclusions, ie engines built solely for racing which i cannot monitor). buffers are a way of improving your reputation as a builder, regardless if you are at fault there is always someone trying to throw you under the bus even if they can't build a car to save their life.
biased? probably. i've pulled apart too many blown motors to want to ever see such carnage again. parts become more scarce with each passing season to not be, sacrifices must be minimized.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 08-27-13 at 02:36 PM.
04-30-14, 01:37 PM
#4
NA-BOOSTIN
Well to start I'm no where near the level of rotary building like evolution is by far , so with that . I'm on my second turbo build with a holset hx-52 . My first build was based off of a straight up t2 setup put on to my stock Mazda remain s4 6port keg . Half way throw the build I realized the 2 stock s4 turbos I had to build one good one was scrap . So a friend gave me a unknown t4 . Ran it with a 38mm wastegate and 5lbs spring for a month or so and blew the turbo seals right out . Come to find out the hotside was a lil on the small side . Was running rtek 1.8 for Ecu . Air fuel in the high 11's low 12's on that turbo . Installied the holset hx-52 with rtek and ran lean as hell when in boost first drive out . Parked it and now am installing a haltech e6k and 1600's on the secondary's . Now I'm hoping the keg will stay together on 10-12 lbs and go from there . Will update as soon as I get my sec's in and iat .
Sorry for bringing up a old thread just realized lol . Was just reading killing time during lunch
Sorry for bringing up a old thread just realized lol . Was just reading killing time during lunch
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