Tein basics- really a terrible choice for FD??
09-16-14, 08:13 PM
#1
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Tein basics- really a terrible choice for FD??
Guys,
After much thought, I've decided to go with some basic coilovers for my FD.
I say basic, because I want them primarily to adjust ride height. I don't plan to track the car. I just want something that rides decently (comfortably). Shocks & springs are out....I'm tired of trying to guess ride height with that combo.
With that said, I'm not a pimply teenager, I'm a 35 year old trying to make a decent compromise on cost vs quality.
Are Tein basics a terrible choice? Trying to spend under 1k if possible. How firm will the ride be?
After much thought, I've decided to go with some basic coilovers for my FD.
I say basic, because I want them primarily to adjust ride height. I don't plan to track the car. I just want something that rides decently (comfortably). Shocks & springs are out....I'm tired of trying to guess ride height with that combo.
With that said, I'm not a pimply teenager, I'm a 35 year old trying to make a decent compromise on cost vs quality.
Are Tein basics a terrible choice? Trying to spend under 1k if possible. How firm will the ride be?
09-16-14, 09:28 PM
#2
Yes, they're a terrible choice.
get a set of ground controls:
Ground Control - Coilover Conversion kit, 1993-2002 Mazda RX7
if you can afford it put them on a set of konis you'll have a better suspension than most.
get a set of ground controls:
Ground Control - Coilover Conversion kit, 1993-2002 Mazda RX7
if you can afford it put them on a set of konis you'll have a better suspension than most.
03-09-15, 10:57 AM
#3
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I am looking into this, but have been searching the forums for more info with very few luck. I want to do the Koni yellow with ground control coilovers. Also looking into other full coilver setups but do not want to spend north of $1,500
03-09-15, 11:34 AM
#4
I wouldn't call the Tein Basics a bad choice, but there are better choices out there. My recommendations would be:
1. Tein Flex
2. Koni Shocks with H&R Springs. The Koni shocks have an adjustable perch which can provide 3 basic ride height settings (low, med, high). It won't provide the full range of a coilover, but it really doesn't seem like you need that much adjustability.
1. Tein Flex
2. Koni Shocks with H&R Springs. The Koni shocks have an adjustable perch which can provide 3 basic ride height settings (low, med, high). It won't provide the full range of a coilover, but it really doesn't seem like you need that much adjustability.
03-09-15, 11:37 AM
#5
Don't forget what a new set of OEM top-hats/spring perches cost. Right around 400 bucks.
I'd probably lurk the FS section here and keep an eye out for a nice set of used coilovers. I bought my Zeals for 1000 bucks with like 5k miles on them.
FritzFlynn and purerx7 are two people to PM.
I'd probably lurk the FS section here and keep an eye out for a nice set of used coilovers. I bought my Zeals for 1000 bucks with like 5k miles on them.
FritzFlynn and purerx7 are two people to PM.
03-09-15, 01:14 PM
#6
I wouldn't call the Tein Basics a bad choice, but there are better choices out there. My recommendations would be:
1. Tein Flex
2. Koni Shocks with H&R Springs. The Koni shocks have an adjustable perch which can provide 3 basic ride height settings (low, med, high). It won't provide the full range of a coilover, but it really doesn't seem like you need that much adjustability.
1. Tein Flex
2. Koni Shocks with H&R Springs. The Koni shocks have an adjustable perch which can provide 3 basic ride height settings (low, med, high). It won't provide the full range of a coilover, but it really doesn't seem like you need that much adjustability.
03-10-15, 10:28 AM
#8
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I feel for the op and for a lot of the people with rx7's.
I have done some research into this topic and there are a lot of misconceptions when it comes to handling performance and ride comfort.
I have watched a lot of video's, looked at tons of shock dyno's, and have done a lot of thought about this subject.
I guess what confuses the subject is, some things are known, other things are unknown (atleast to me).
The known things
1) Ride frequency is good around 1.6-1.8HZ with the rear being slightly higher than the front to obtain a flat ride.
This leaves us with spring rate around 8KG front and 6KG rear or 7KG rear. This produces a flat ride with the weight of most modified rx7's and motion ratio's.
2) we know a more compliant softer/floaty ride produces more grip. Not a harsh ride.
This goes against most people's common sense/perception of sports cars. If you think about it, a soft plush ride has the wheels on the ground, a harsh ride is a ride that skips over bumps or falls into holes. The softest most compliant ride will get you the most grip.
So you really need shocks to handle the spring rates above.
So what does the ideal shock damping curve look like for spring rates above?
I am not sure. I know the top velocity force should "blow off" and have a knee somewhere. much debate occurs on where the knee should be, how sharp it should be, etc, etc, etc. When bumps are hit this typically happens at higher shock velocities, if the damper doesn't blow off force at the higher shaft velocities it results in the shock turning into a rock and is super harsh. or the shock won't let the spring force it back to the ground feeling like your jumping or skipping over large bumps. I have shocks that do this
I am not sure what the ideal shock damping curve looks like for velocity/force.
I have seen the koni yellow shock dyno's and stock rx7 shock dyno's, etc, etc and the koni yellow sports look good from what I know. I also think H&R sport springs are great quality. I think for the money this could be the best set up from a ride and handling perspective. I would be interested to see how this rides. One thing that does bother me with this set up is the shocks aren't necessarily designed exactly for the spring.
Now with adjustment, Why do we need adjustment at all? I can see fitting different springs/rates to the shocks that adjustment might be needed...but if a shock and spring are matched together and work well, why would anyone ever need to adjust? Isn't the whole idea to match the shock as best as you can to the spring or vice versa? Once that harmony is achieved shouldn't we declare victory and leave it?
I have done some research into this topic and there are a lot of misconceptions when it comes to handling performance and ride comfort.
I have watched a lot of video's, looked at tons of shock dyno's, and have done a lot of thought about this subject.
I guess what confuses the subject is, some things are known, other things are unknown (atleast to me).
The known things
1) Ride frequency is good around 1.6-1.8HZ with the rear being slightly higher than the front to obtain a flat ride.
This leaves us with spring rate around 8KG front and 6KG rear or 7KG rear. This produces a flat ride with the weight of most modified rx7's and motion ratio's.
2) we know a more compliant softer/floaty ride produces more grip. Not a harsh ride.
This goes against most people's common sense/perception of sports cars. If you think about it, a soft plush ride has the wheels on the ground, a harsh ride is a ride that skips over bumps or falls into holes. The softest most compliant ride will get you the most grip.
So you really need shocks to handle the spring rates above.
So what does the ideal shock damping curve look like for spring rates above?
I am not sure. I know the top velocity force should "blow off" and have a knee somewhere. much debate occurs on where the knee should be, how sharp it should be, etc, etc, etc. When bumps are hit this typically happens at higher shock velocities, if the damper doesn't blow off force at the higher shaft velocities it results in the shock turning into a rock and is super harsh. or the shock won't let the spring force it back to the ground feeling like your jumping or skipping over large bumps. I have shocks that do this
I am not sure what the ideal shock damping curve looks like for velocity/force.
I have seen the koni yellow shock dyno's and stock rx7 shock dyno's, etc, etc and the koni yellow sports look good from what I know. I also think H&R sport springs are great quality. I think for the money this could be the best set up from a ride and handling perspective. I would be interested to see how this rides. One thing that does bother me with this set up is the shocks aren't necessarily designed exactly for the spring.
Now with adjustment, Why do we need adjustment at all? I can see fitting different springs/rates to the shocks that adjustment might be needed...but if a shock and spring are matched together and work well, why would anyone ever need to adjust? Isn't the whole idea to match the shock as best as you can to the spring or vice versa? Once that harmony is achieved shouldn't we declare victory and leave it?
03-11-15, 01:05 AM
#10
I just put basics on the rx8 and they are not bad for what they are. It was either buy new oem shocks for the same price of buy tein basics and have better dampers and lower my car as I please.
Im pleased with them but there is far better out there for the price. I recently picked up a set of tein mono flex coilovers with edfc controller for 1000$ from a local importer on this Forum.
Hope this helps.
Goodluck
Im pleased with them but there is far better out there for the price. I recently picked up a set of tein mono flex coilovers with edfc controller for 1000$ from a local importer on this Forum.
Hope this helps.
Goodluck
03-11-15, 09:39 AM
#11
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The one thing that I do not like about Tein is that all their entry level coilover setups include twin tube shocks. The setups with monotube designs start at almost $2,000.
03-11-15, 10:14 AM
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I'll ask some questions to get people to think.
What is more important, ride quality or height adjustability?
If ride quality is more important, and it is to me. I think trying to find a good shock for the best price is a much better approach to ride quality and performance. Height can be adjusted by springs to some degree (buying different springs). you basically just look at pics and try and get the best height. I would rather have the best possible shock I can find, match springs up the best I can for height, and play with tire height to fill in gaps if you want (265/35/18 is 25.3" tall, 245/35/18 is 24.8" tall).
I have ridden in a lot of rx7's and obviously my own. I think the lower end coilover market doesn't have great shocks, most have shock dyno's that are linear in shape. I think a better shock dyno is more of a digressive plot with blow off forces at high shock velocities. This prevents the shock from basically binding up when it hits a large bump (think skipping or jumping off larger bumps). The stock rx7 shocks aren't bad and I wouldn't be opposed to running them on some springs. I know the racing beat springs on one of the cars here has a ride height around 25.5" to the fender with 25.3" tall tires. I think the car rides pretty nice (smooth) and is progressive in breakaway characteristics. Feels boring but is fast and predictable.
What is more important, ride quality or height adjustability?
If ride quality is more important, and it is to me. I think trying to find a good shock for the best price is a much better approach to ride quality and performance. Height can be adjusted by springs to some degree (buying different springs). you basically just look at pics and try and get the best height. I would rather have the best possible shock I can find, match springs up the best I can for height, and play with tire height to fill in gaps if you want (265/35/18 is 25.3" tall, 245/35/18 is 24.8" tall).
I have ridden in a lot of rx7's and obviously my own. I think the lower end coilover market doesn't have great shocks, most have shock dyno's that are linear in shape. I think a better shock dyno is more of a digressive plot with blow off forces at high shock velocities. This prevents the shock from basically binding up when it hits a large bump (think skipping or jumping off larger bumps). The stock rx7 shocks aren't bad and I wouldn't be opposed to running them on some springs. I know the racing beat springs on one of the cars here has a ride height around 25.5" to the fender with 25.3" tall tires. I think the car rides pretty nice (smooth) and is progressive in breakaway characteristics. Feels boring but is fast and predictable.
03-11-15, 12:15 PM
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My car came with ARK performance coilovers, they are much like tein and stance. The shock dynos are all very similar.
I swapped my 12KG front and rear springs with 8KG and 6KG springs and the car rides much better, but the shock dampening still isn't THAT great.
I have ridden in a car with Stance and 12/10KG springs and it does ride rough as well. Another friend has Tein's on his and I think his rates might be 10/8 KG and his car rides alright, but still not that smoothness of a good shock. 15U's car has racing beat springs and stock shocks (very high mileage and one might be blown) and I honestly think his car rides the best of all of ours. His glides over bumps and soaks things up and is very progressive in breakaway and catches nice after breakaway. We mostly all slightly stretch the tires out for this type of response from our wheels/tires. The stock shocks aren't bad shocks and I think they are most likely higher quality than most of the cheaper end coilover set ups. I would think the koni yellows are also a good bargin shock, but I might still pick the stock shocks over them. I hate the harshness and poor dampening of the cheaper coilovers.
I swapped my 12KG front and rear springs with 8KG and 6KG springs and the car rides much better, but the shock dampening still isn't THAT great.
I have ridden in a car with Stance and 12/10KG springs and it does ride rough as well. Another friend has Tein's on his and I think his rates might be 10/8 KG and his car rides alright, but still not that smoothness of a good shock. 15U's car has racing beat springs and stock shocks (very high mileage and one might be blown) and I honestly think his car rides the best of all of ours. His glides over bumps and soaks things up and is very progressive in breakaway and catches nice after breakaway. We mostly all slightly stretch the tires out for this type of response from our wheels/tires. The stock shocks aren't bad shocks and I think they are most likely higher quality than most of the cheaper end coilover set ups. I would think the koni yellows are also a good bargin shock, but I might still pick the stock shocks over them. I hate the harshness and poor dampening of the cheaper coilovers.
03-11-15, 12:16 PM
#16
The one thing that I do not like about Tein is that all their entry level coilover setups include twin tube shocks. The setups with monotube designs start at almost $2,000.
Twin tube has the advantage of less static stiction, so they tend to soak up small bumps better which provides much more traction over less than perfect groomed race track surfaces.
Traditionally it has taken a $$ monotube shock to have good enough piston/valving to overcome this stiction disadvantage. I hope this is changing (I had some Stance XRs on my FC that seemed pretty good in this respect compared to previous monotube coilovers I used on it).
(Stiction= basically, the monotube shock rod has to overcome the valving, friction of the seals on the piston to shock wall and the gas separator piston seals to shock wall to move.).
The twin tube disadvantage is inconsistent performance over repeated cycling, so if you are railing dirt roads or hard core racing you will notice right away.
For a street car with some performance use a good twin tube (thinking Koni Yellow here) will be great.
In fact, Koni Yellows (twin tube) revalved for high spring rates are a staple of club racing.
The popular alternative is revalved Bilsteins (mono tube) which are regarded as harsher ride/less traction over poor surfaces.
Twin tube has the advantage of less static stiction, so they tend to soak up small bumps better which provides much more traction over less than perfect groomed race track surfaces.
Traditionally it has taken a $$ monotube shock to have good enough piston/valving to overcome this stiction disadvantage. I hope this is changing (I had some Stance XRs on my FC that seemed pretty good in this respect compared to previous monotube coilovers I used on it).
(Stiction= basically, the monotube shock rod has to overcome the valving, friction of the seals on the piston to shock wall and the gas separator piston seals to shock wall to move.).
The twin tube disadvantage is inconsistent performance over repeated cycling, so if you are railing dirt roads or hard core racing you will notice right away.
For a street car with some performance use a good twin tube (thinking Koni Yellow here) will be great.
In fact, Koni Yellows (twin tube) revalved for high spring rates are a staple of club racing.
The popular alternative is revalved Bilsteins (mono tube) which are regarded as harsher ride/less traction over poor surfaces.
03-11-15, 12:22 PM
#18
Research ZEAL coilovers.
Made by the company who makes endless brakes, rebuildable in the USA and the ride quality is top notch. The best you can buy until you begin to look at set ups like the external-resi Ohlins and Penskes.
There are a lot of factors when it comes to ride quality..more than just how stiff the springs are.
Made by the company who makes endless brakes, rebuildable in the USA and the ride quality is top notch. The best you can buy until you begin to look at set ups like the external-resi Ohlins and Penskes.
There are a lot of factors when it comes to ride quality..more than just how stiff the springs are.
03-11-15, 12:28 PM
#19
Dang, I can't edit even one minute after posting.
I meant to say AMONG the best you can buy , and I also wanted to mention that you can get the ZEALs from AutoRnD, who is a member here by the name of ARDT2. Give him a PM and he can definitely point you in the right direction...Rishie's one of the most knowledgeable guy on this site when it comes to suspension and wheels
also here's this:
https://www.rx7club.com/suspension-w...lovers-602428/
I meant to say AMONG the best you can buy , and I also wanted to mention that you can get the ZEALs from AutoRnD, who is a member here by the name of ARDT2. Give him a PM and he can definitely point you in the right direction...Rishie's one of the most knowledgeable guy on this site when it comes to suspension and wheels
also here's this:
https://www.rx7club.com/suspension-w...lovers-602428/
03-21-15, 08:32 PM
#21
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Fortune Auto 500 Coilovers
I replaced my Tiens with Fortune Auto 500 Coilovers, with 8 kg and 6 kg springs, much improved ride and handles great. About $1200.
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