howard coleman's FD Chassis/Setup
03-02-08, 02:25 PM
#102
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You can order the mounts from me - I make them!
They're $245 USDa set, and come with new hardware and radiator support plates. If you want to
order a set, you can mail a check or use Paypal if that's preferred.
One thing, shipping isn't cheap to Australia, so if you have any friends who might
want sets too, it'll save you all to order together.
PM or email me if you have questions, would like to see pictures, or want the
installation instructions sent to you.
And no, I don't offer swaybars - there's a lot of good brands out there already,
so it's a pretty saturated market. If you want to post your car's specs, and what
you want to change, Howard and the rest of the folks here could advise on what
to get.
Thanks,
David Breslau
Widefoot Racing Co
widefoot [the at symbol] comcast [dot] net
03-03-08, 03:15 AM
#104
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Anyone here had much experience with swaybars iam going to get a set of buddyclub n+spec coilover's with spring rate's front 10 and rear 8 and prob gonna try and get some widefoot mounts,any ideas about which swaybars to use?there are so many!!
03-05-08, 04:51 AM
#106
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Yeah i have read it all,what i was meaning was which brand would be most suitible to the widefoot mounts as there were a few metioned like,
Speedway Engineering/Tripoint
Tanabe
Racing Beat
just wanted any feedback on the above brands
Cheers
03-05-08, 08:20 AM
#108
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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swaybars are greatly underappreciated as a dynamic component of the uprated FD suspension.
there is a tendency to cure body roll w high rated springs which is akin to having a lobotomy to cure a headache.
i am therefore delighted that we have some chatter about swaybars.
as in springs, swaybars do NOT reduce total lateral weight transfer. LWT is the enemy of going fast. the FD at 25 inch ride height transfers approx 800 pounds in a 1.1 G turn.
changing the springs or swaybars will not change the total LWT.
raising spring rate and/or bar rate WILL DECREASE chassis feedback to the driver. there will quickly reach a point where the car will snap with NO warning whatsoever.
do you feel lucky?
changing the spring/bar rates between front and rear WILL APPORTION the LTW towards the front or rear. stiffening the rear, for example will transfer more of the 800 pounds to the outside rear tire thus making the car lose traction in the rear more quickly.... "loose-oversteer."
proper (not too stiff) spring rates work to keep the tire in more constant contact w the track.
proper sway bar rate limits roll AND dictates longitudinal trim...
some roll is o k (2 inches max at the wheel, 1.2 inches at the front shock and 1.3 in the rear at the shock) w the FD due to the racecar suspension. two inches of bump/jounce (wheel going up into the wheel well on a turn) creates 3 degrees of additional negative camber to offset the body roll!!!!!!!!!!!!
a major portion of the roll resistance should be delivered by the swaybar. if you do it w springs you lose tire/track compliance.
the FD, especially w any kind of uprated tire, does need swaybars... even before springs/shocks.
Bonus.... they are really easy to install! and not particularly expensive.
let's get specific.
Tanabe looks like a winner for most applications. (aggressive street and weekend track--- not looking to break the sound barrier but close)
i like the rate and the fact they took the time to weld lateral retaining rings on the bars. lots cooler than hose clamp stuff. i like the rate... plus 30% front, plus 37% rear. i like the fact that they have a knowledgable tech guy. and the price.. $154 each.
front bar.. 30 MM o d X 20.4 i d. rear 20 MM X 15. chrome moly
here's a link to a vendor, i am sure there are many others.
http://www.evasivemotorsports.com/me...de=Tanabe-Sway
Racing Beat sells a two bar package. approx $150 per bar. rear is 19 MM. there are posted rates but i question their accuracy as they may not know the wall thickness... there have been prior problems w RB's rear bar and i wish RB would have been more proactive as to sharing w the community the problem (if there was one) and the fix. supposedly the rear RB bar is plus 50% and 100% stiffer (2 adj positions) but i would not try to take that to the bank. i do not know the front rate. if anyone knows or has had experience w a more recently purchased RB bar system let's hear from you. generally, RB sells good stuff.
Cusco sells an 18 MM rear bar for around $226... (maybe you can find it cheaper).
Suspension Techniques sells a rear 19 MM at $191. ( they also may offer a front?)
Eibach used to offer bars. MazdaSpeed may offer something but i think is in a closeout mode.
i am (still) in process of fixturing a Speedway Engineering front bar. since i bought the components from Speedway V buying the package from TriPoint i am dealing w bending the 3/4 inch aluminum arms, drilling the holes in the bar, mating the Speedway low profile bar mounting block to my (essential) Widefoot mount and fixturing the links.
i did something a bit different on the links. instead of using a bushed upper rod end to mate to the lower A arm i adapted the OEM link....
i don't plan to drill the usual 5 holes in each arm as i don't like arm angularity and there isn't a large enough window in the lower A arm to permit such adjustment. i plan to drill one hole directly below the link center. should i need more (improbable) or less roll stiffness i will just switch bars.
i plan to run the Speedway front bar and will run the stock 93 rear bar and switch to the Tanabe rear bar if the car develops some push. i should be ontrack after a March dyno session and will report back.
this all assumes that winter is going to end.
hc
there is a tendency to cure body roll w high rated springs which is akin to having a lobotomy to cure a headache.
i am therefore delighted that we have some chatter about swaybars.
as in springs, swaybars do NOT reduce total lateral weight transfer. LWT is the enemy of going fast. the FD at 25 inch ride height transfers approx 800 pounds in a 1.1 G turn.
changing the springs or swaybars will not change the total LWT.
raising spring rate and/or bar rate WILL DECREASE chassis feedback to the driver. there will quickly reach a point where the car will snap with NO warning whatsoever.
do you feel lucky?
changing the spring/bar rates between front and rear WILL APPORTION the LTW towards the front or rear. stiffening the rear, for example will transfer more of the 800 pounds to the outside rear tire thus making the car lose traction in the rear more quickly.... "loose-oversteer."
proper (not too stiff) spring rates work to keep the tire in more constant contact w the track.
proper sway bar rate limits roll AND dictates longitudinal trim...
some roll is o k (2 inches max at the wheel, 1.2 inches at the front shock and 1.3 in the rear at the shock) w the FD due to the racecar suspension. two inches of bump/jounce (wheel going up into the wheel well on a turn) creates 3 degrees of additional negative camber to offset the body roll!!!!!!!!!!!!
a major portion of the roll resistance should be delivered by the swaybar. if you do it w springs you lose tire/track compliance.
the FD, especially w any kind of uprated tire, does need swaybars... even before springs/shocks.
Bonus.... they are really easy to install! and not particularly expensive.
let's get specific.
Tanabe looks like a winner for most applications. (aggressive street and weekend track--- not looking to break the sound barrier but close)
i like the rate and the fact they took the time to weld lateral retaining rings on the bars. lots cooler than hose clamp stuff. i like the rate... plus 30% front, plus 37% rear. i like the fact that they have a knowledgable tech guy. and the price.. $154 each.
front bar.. 30 MM o d X 20.4 i d. rear 20 MM X 15. chrome moly
here's a link to a vendor, i am sure there are many others.
http://www.evasivemotorsports.com/me...de=Tanabe-Sway
Racing Beat sells a two bar package. approx $150 per bar. rear is 19 MM. there are posted rates but i question their accuracy as they may not know the wall thickness... there have been prior problems w RB's rear bar and i wish RB would have been more proactive as to sharing w the community the problem (if there was one) and the fix. supposedly the rear RB bar is plus 50% and 100% stiffer (2 adj positions) but i would not try to take that to the bank. i do not know the front rate. if anyone knows or has had experience w a more recently purchased RB bar system let's hear from you. generally, RB sells good stuff.
Cusco sells an 18 MM rear bar for around $226... (maybe you can find it cheaper).
Suspension Techniques sells a rear 19 MM at $191. ( they also may offer a front?)
Eibach used to offer bars. MazdaSpeed may offer something but i think is in a closeout mode.
i am (still) in process of fixturing a Speedway Engineering front bar. since i bought the components from Speedway V buying the package from TriPoint i am dealing w bending the 3/4 inch aluminum arms, drilling the holes in the bar, mating the Speedway low profile bar mounting block to my (essential) Widefoot mount and fixturing the links.
i did something a bit different on the links. instead of using a bushed upper rod end to mate to the lower A arm i adapted the OEM link....
i don't plan to drill the usual 5 holes in each arm as i don't like arm angularity and there isn't a large enough window in the lower A arm to permit such adjustment. i plan to drill one hole directly below the link center. should i need more (improbable) or less roll stiffness i will just switch bars.
i plan to run the Speedway front bar and will run the stock 93 rear bar and switch to the Tanabe rear bar if the car develops some push. i should be ontrack after a March dyno session and will report back.
this all assumes that winter is going to end.
hc
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 04-16-08 at 01:31 PM.
03-07-08, 03:09 PM
#110
This thread has been a great help Howard. I've been in contact with Tein about a custon setup with the 8/6 spring rates as well as Ground Control. GC offers a custom poly pillowball that they claim doesn't transmit vibration with their Eibach, modified Koni setup for around 1300. Tein says changing the spring rate more then 2 kg front or rear ( which you have to do on the ss to get 8/6) requires valve changes plus you have to buy the springs seperately. The later seems to be a pretty expensive option. I think I'm going with GC.
03-07-08, 09:28 PM
#111
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Uncle Cool,
GC sounds good. i like GC stuff as long as you get the right springs. as far as Tein's comment re shock valving.... not true. whoever comes up w that stuff. i owned a shock dyno and i dynoed Tein coil overs. they are valved w 16 clicks and literally go from loosey goosey to rock hard. the valving has any spring rate covered end of story.
hc
GC sounds good. i like GC stuff as long as you get the right springs. as far as Tein's comment re shock valving.... not true. whoever comes up w that stuff. i owned a shock dyno and i dynoed Tein coil overs. they are valved w 16 clicks and literally go from loosey goosey to rock hard. the valving has any spring rate covered end of story.
hc
03-08-08, 08:20 PM
#113
Uncle Cool,
as far as Tein's comment re shock valving.... not true. whoever comes up w that stuff. i owned a shock dyno and i dynoed Tein coil overs. they are valved w 16 clicks and literally go from loosey goosey to rock hard. the valving has any spring rate covered end of story.
hc
as far as Tein's comment re shock valving.... not true. whoever comes up w that stuff. i owned a shock dyno and i dynoed Tein coil overs. they are valved w 16 clicks and literally go from loosey goosey to rock hard. the valving has any spring rate covered end of story.
hc
Ok that's awesome info. So let's say I get the Tein Flex mono (which come with 14/12kg springs) and change them out for say swift 10/8kg springs, then I should be good and not worry about gettting them revalved? I think I may just go that route.
03-09-08, 09:50 AM
#116
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"Tein Flex mono (which come with 14/12kg springs) and change them out for say swift 10/8kg springs"
according to Tein's site, the Flex comes w 10/8 springs which is OK but at the upper end of acceptability for me. if you do use a non-Tein spring just make sure it is the same I-D, O-D and has the same Free Height otherwise you might not end up w the proper rate. Tein does sell their own alternate rate springs.
both the Flex and SS are twin tube, not mono, design BTW.
"Why not just go with the Tein Flex twin tube that comes with 10/8kg??"
yes on your correct I-D of the rate.
let's be clear on the diff between my preference, the Tein SS product, and the Flex.
the SS comes w the OEM upper insulative mount. the Flex comes w a steel upper mount. the steel upper mount offers NO performance advantage and does transmit more NVH. the whole car sits on the upper mount.
i have dynoed both the SS and Flex and there is no difference in the 16 click valving. both the Flex and SS are twin tube and probably share the same internals.
don't get hung up on the separate height adj on the Flex. both offer all the height adj range that you will ever need w no bottoming out the shock piston.
the Flex lists for $1580
the SS lists for $1040.
i would buy the SS and swap in the Tein 8/6 springs or the 10/8. after paying for the springs you are still more than $200 under the Flex and have a better setup.
caveat:
there's nothing wrong w running solid upper mounts if you wish... it is just my preference as to using the OEM upper mount as i see no performance advantage w the solid uppers.
there are no doubt other really nice coil overs on the market. spring rate is the key... it is the first question to ask.
generally my recommendations are targeted towards 95% of the readers who want 90% of the max performance that the FD can deliver without the give-up that a 100% track car requires.
aggressive dual purpose is the objective here.
hc
according to Tein's site, the Flex comes w 10/8 springs which is OK but at the upper end of acceptability for me. if you do use a non-Tein spring just make sure it is the same I-D, O-D and has the same Free Height otherwise you might not end up w the proper rate. Tein does sell their own alternate rate springs.
both the Flex and SS are twin tube, not mono, design BTW.
"Why not just go with the Tein Flex twin tube that comes with 10/8kg??"
yes on your correct I-D of the rate.
let's be clear on the diff between my preference, the Tein SS product, and the Flex.
the SS comes w the OEM upper insulative mount. the Flex comes w a steel upper mount. the steel upper mount offers NO performance advantage and does transmit more NVH. the whole car sits on the upper mount.
i have dynoed both the SS and Flex and there is no difference in the 16 click valving. both the Flex and SS are twin tube and probably share the same internals.
don't get hung up on the separate height adj on the Flex. both offer all the height adj range that you will ever need w no bottoming out the shock piston.
the Flex lists for $1580
the SS lists for $1040.
i would buy the SS and swap in the Tein 8/6 springs or the 10/8. after paying for the springs you are still more than $200 under the Flex and have a better setup.
caveat:
there's nothing wrong w running solid upper mounts if you wish... it is just my preference as to using the OEM upper mount as i see no performance advantage w the solid uppers.
there are no doubt other really nice coil overs on the market. spring rate is the key... it is the first question to ask.
generally my recommendations are targeted towards 95% of the readers who want 90% of the max performance that the FD can deliver without the give-up that a 100% track car requires.
aggressive dual purpose is the objective here.
hc
03-09-08, 10:36 AM
#117
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Howard, I was wondering what you thought about Tanabe SS and SS type-II coilovers. I think the only difference between the two is that SS comes with helper springs and SS type-II does not. It comes with 8/6 spring rates, which you recommend. The price difference between the two is $180 or so. What do you think about these coilovers and do you think the helper springs are worth the price difference? Thanks. 
03-09-08, 12:33 PM
#118
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Tanabe's site lists the Sustec Pro S-OC and OC type 2. nowhere in the list of Apps is Mazda listed nor is the SS listed..
OTOH, a search turns up lots of dealers offering the Sustec SS. (PN TSS013P). what do you know, they nailed the spring rate.... 8/6. the units only come w a steel upper mount.
adjustment wheel is at the bottom of the shock body which is not as convenient as the Tein. Tein is at the top of the shock rod. the front being in the engine compartment and the rear accessable after removing the plastic shock cover.
adjustments are either 4 or 8 positions, Tein has 16. i do agree w Tanabe that if the clicks are properly set that 16 may be overkill. many of the stiffer settings on the Tein are all too stiff.
helper springs are handy for assembly and offer no other advantages. my Teins have helper springs. Tein states some models come w helpers.
price is around $1490-1500. i have not dynoed them... perhaps someone running them will have some feedback. BTW, as i was checking vendors re the Tanabe's i came across a $955 price on the Tein SS product so you'd have lots of savings to buy the better spring rate.
hc
OTOH, a search turns up lots of dealers offering the Sustec SS. (PN TSS013P). what do you know, they nailed the spring rate.... 8/6. the units only come w a steel upper mount.
adjustment wheel is at the bottom of the shock body which is not as convenient as the Tein. Tein is at the top of the shock rod. the front being in the engine compartment and the rear accessable after removing the plastic shock cover.
adjustments are either 4 or 8 positions, Tein has 16. i do agree w Tanabe that if the clicks are properly set that 16 may be overkill. many of the stiffer settings on the Tein are all too stiff.
helper springs are handy for assembly and offer no other advantages. my Teins have helper springs. Tein states some models come w helpers.
price is around $1490-1500. i have not dynoed them... perhaps someone running them will have some feedback. BTW, as i was checking vendors re the Tanabe's i came across a $955 price on the Tein SS product so you'd have lots of savings to buy the better spring rate.
hc
03-09-08, 04:38 PM
#119
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My concern for getting Teins and going lower on spring rates is that the valving might not be optimal for lower rates. So would you recommend Tein SS with 8/6 spring rates? BTW, SS type IIs(version w/o helper springs) are around $1250, so the price difference should be negligible for Tein SS with 8/6 springs. Thanks a lot
03-09-08, 07:01 PM
#120
i have the apexi n1's exv's and the spring rate is 12/12...yea i know...i like the monotube and valving.
http://www.rx7store.net/product_p/apexiexv.htm
if i changed the spring rates to 10/8 or 8/6, would i be in good shape or should i sell them to a drifter or something? they have maybe 250 miles on them. thanks howard
http://www.rx7store.net/product_p/apexiexv.htm
if i changed the spring rates to 10/8 or 8/6, would i be in good shape or should i sell them to a drifter or something? they have maybe 250 miles on them. thanks howard
03-09-08, 08:08 PM
#121
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"getting Teins and going lower on spring rates is that the valving might not be optimal for lower rates"
i had a shock dyno for a number of years and dynoed the Tein SS and Tein Flex. both have the same valving. as i have previously posted the valving goes from almost no resistance to almost locked up.
executive summary is: both Teins will work valvingwise w virtually any spring rate.
"apexi n1's exv's and the spring rate is 12/12...if i changed the spring rates to 10/8 or 8/6, would i be in good shape"
i have not dynoed them. how many clicks are they? what adjustment are you currently running at? if you adjust them full soft what do they feel like?
hc
i had a shock dyno for a number of years and dynoed the Tein SS and Tein Flex. both have the same valving. as i have previously posted the valving goes from almost no resistance to almost locked up.
executive summary is: both Teins will work valvingwise w virtually any spring rate.
"apexi n1's exv's and the spring rate is 12/12...if i changed the spring rates to 10/8 or 8/6, would i be in good shape"
i have not dynoed them. how many clicks are they? what adjustment are you currently running at? if you adjust them full soft what do they feel like?
hc
03-09-08, 09:00 PM
#122
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Howard, do you have any plots from the Teins? I'm just wondering how they compare to others. Also interested to see how adjustment affects damping curves on these.
03-10-08, 02:16 AM
#123
i have not dynoed them. how many clicks are they? what adjustment are you currently running at? if you adjust them full soft what do they feel like?
they have 32 clicks. i'm not sure what they feel like on the softest setting. i've been running them just past half and the car feels stable and not too harsh.
they have 32 clicks. i'm not sure what they feel like on the softest setting. i've been running them just past half and the car feels stable and not too harsh.
03-10-08, 07:37 AM
#124
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"do you have any plots from the Teins"
yes, i have dyno charts on all 16 settings at all speeds. if i get time i might post a comparo between them, the OEM ad OEM R1s. i really don't want to get too technical on the thread, it is easy to forget about the forest looking at the trees.
"been running them just past half"
no guarantees, but given your current shock settings you could easily drop to 10/8 and your shocks should work fine on a touch softer setting. you will find the car entirely different (lots of stick)after you soften up the rear. w 12/12 i would be running 29 f 26 rear air pressure set cold.
hc
yes, i have dyno charts on all 16 settings at all speeds. if i get time i might post a comparo between them, the OEM ad OEM R1s. i really don't want to get too technical on the thread, it is easy to forget about the forest looking at the trees.
"been running them just past half"
no guarantees, but given your current shock settings you could easily drop to 10/8 and your shocks should work fine on a touch softer setting. you will find the car entirely different (lots of stick)after you soften up the rear. w 12/12 i would be running 29 f 26 rear air pressure set cold.
hc
03-10-08, 07:47 AM
#125
Racing Rotary Since 1983
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BTW, as follow up to my bushings comments earlier in the thread....
Rotary Performance (Ari Yellen) offers upper Differential Bushings. i consider them to be an essential mod for the FD along w the bushing at the front of the lower longitudinal link in the rear which RP also offers...
the diff bushings were hard to find, i made my own, so this is just an FYI.
hc
Rotary Performance (Ari Yellen) offers upper Differential Bushings. i consider them to be an essential mod for the FD along w the bushing at the front of the lower longitudinal link in the rear which RP also offers...
the diff bushings were hard to find, i made my own, so this is just an FYI.
hc