howard coleman's FD Chassis/Setup
04-22-12, 09:39 AM
#803
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My car came with Racing Beat sway bars, so I'd like to work around that if I can. I will replace the recommended bushings and toe links, and I will probably go with Zeal Function X or XS coils. What spring rates would you recommend for 90% street driving and backroading. I would like to road race it in the future, but I honestly don't know if I'll ever have the time. If the RB bars are too stiff I don't mind replacing them, but if they can be set up to work well, I'll leave them alone.
04-22-12, 11:09 AM
#804
My car came with Racing Beat sway bars, so I'd like to work around that if I can. I will replace the recommended bushings and toe links, and I will probably go with Zeal Function X or XS coils. What spring rates would you recommend for 90% street driving and backroading. I would like to road race it in the future, but I honestly don't know if I'll ever have the time. If the RB bars are too stiff I don't mind replacing them, but if they can be set up to work well, I'll leave them alone.
8k front 6k rear
or
10k front 8k rear
Are both very streetable setups. Your wheel/tire combo will also play a part of this. Just remember the more sidewall on your tires, the smoother the ride will be.
Your RB bars will be fine. Unless you are pushing hard on a road course, no need to nick pick sway bars for street use.
I'd also look into powerflex bushings for the stock toe links instead of replacing them. First off its a street car and your not looking for the last tenth of a second. Second, they are less expensive and will probably last longer compared to the bearings in aftermarket toe links. Third, some people swap them to fit large tires however with the proper offset you can still fit a 285 width with factory links.
04-22-12, 11:40 AM
#805
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Thanks. I was just worried that the RB bars may be too stiff, they are much stiffer than what is recommended here. The Zeal XS rates are 9k/8k, so I'll just get them to build the fronts to 10k and call it good. I don't need the extra adjustability of the X.
This car has been modified in many ways already, some things are done well, others not so much. I'm going to go all the way through the car and do a full nut and bolt inspection on it before I drive it hard around corners at all. I'm sure that there are bushings and hard parts that will need replacing from wear and tear, so I want to replace everything that needs it with the optimal parts, whether OEM or aftermarket. The car is going to be a work in progress for a while. It looks as though the previous owner started strongly, then lost interest and started half-assing things.
This car has been modified in many ways already, some things are done well, others not so much. I'm going to go all the way through the car and do a full nut and bolt inspection on it before I drive it hard around corners at all. I'm sure that there are bushings and hard parts that will need replacing from wear and tear, so I want to replace everything that needs it with the optimal parts, whether OEM or aftermarket. The car is going to be a work in progress for a while. It looks as though the previous owner started strongly, then lost interest and started half-assing things.
Last edited by Nataphen; 04-22-12 at 11:43 AM.
05-03-12, 12:07 PM
#808
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my car is about 2 weeks from being up and running. i will be out soon. if i get a chance i will be at BHF this weekend nosing around...
you have a PM wutangben
howard
you have a PM wutangben
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 05-03-12 at 12:28 PM.
05-22-12, 01:30 AM
#809
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i have been wanting to show interested parties how to spread the steel sleeves that slide in our aluminum control arms...
here you go
a 3/8 carriage bolt, a couple of washers and nuts and the job is finished. no struggle to re-connect the lower shock and swaybar mount.
here you go
a 3/8 carriage bolt, a couple of washers and nuts and the job is finished. no struggle to re-connect the lower shock and swaybar mount.
06-17-12, 04:44 PM
#811
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awesome thread on suspension setup, but can you explain a little on how bump steer works? lets say when you lower the rack and pinion down lower then the OEmounting point, what is bump steer and how does it affect the handling?
07-02-12, 02:43 PM
#812
Has anyone figured out recommended ride height measurements from the hub center to the fender? I would think this would help keep the suspension in the desired area of its travel range without being affected by differences in tires.
I recently changed to NT-01s on my car and the fronts are taller than my older tires - due to only having a few sizing options. This raised my front ride height from the ground to the fender, but I'm not sure that lowering the front further is really the right option to change.
I recently changed to NT-01s on my car and the fronts are taller than my older tires - due to only having a few sizing options. This raised my front ride height from the ground to the fender, but I'm not sure that lowering the front further is really the right option to change.
11-29-12, 12:11 PM
#816
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i have recently had the pleasure of working w Lucho Campusano, an RX7club member living (it up) in the Dominican Republic. i thought it might be of some help to share some of the process of chassis tuning from 3000 miles...
here's Lucho's FD.... Nice!
as i recall Lucho contacted me after reading the suspension thread. he had a bunch of setup questions and was also interested in a motor. i helped him w his chassis and referred him to Jose LeDuc for a motor as i don't build NA. needless to say Jose built him a 10,000 rpm screamer... actually so much of a screamer he had to put alot of exhaust on the car to get back on track.
the special fun ATM is that being in the DR, Lucho can run all winter. so we on the thread can follow along this winter as the times come down.
the race series restarts in March so it will get more exciting with spring.
here's the track:
the first item that jumps out is that it runs counter-clockwise. 22 seasons of racing and i have never ran on a CC track. this has significant setup issues.
ideally you want as much inside weight as possible. my GT3 car, thanks to alot of lead in the rockers had 53% inside (right side) weight w me in the car. here, you want the opposite.
also, having more left turns has suspension settings needs.
Lucho has been out twice. the first outing the car came directly from the build shop. we all know how that goes. Lucho made 8 laps and things went pretty well w the exception of not much in the way of brakes. He hadn't been in a racecar in 12 years. i did note he had been pretty successful in his previous racing...
some of the items on the car:
LeDuc semi-peripheral port 10,000 rpm motor w a class limited choke of 65 mm.
Haltec Platinum 1000, rx8 trans, 4.77 rear end, Tilton double disc, R888 235/40/17 race rubber.
out:
1.4 degrees neg camber left side
1.8 degrees N C right side
29 | 27
----------
26 | 24
temps
132 130 142 | 143 134 135
.......137......|.........139
--------------------------------------
124 135 158 | 156 153 152
........141.....|.........154
aver corner temp
134.6 | 137.3
---------------------
139 | 153.6
tire temps lead us to tire pressure settings. the center temp should be half way between the outer and inner. (center ideal temp posted below the 3 temps)
for instance look at the LF. 132 and 142. the mid temp should be 137. it is 130 so in is under-inflated. you will end up at diff pressures at all 4 corners when you are tuned.
based on the above i recommended for the next outing:
30 | 27.7
-------------
26.7 | 24
turning to the temps...
the car is loose w 816 degrees in the front and 878 in the rear. (hooking up the rear is always the key to going fast in a rear drive front engine car)
the inner to outer temp gradient looks good in the front. the rear is a disaster and presents room to improve.
34 degrees diff in the LR!!!
4 degrees diff in the RR!
reset camber:
LR set it at minus one degree
RR set it at minus 2.5 degrees
reset front toe. toe out creates unstable braking. set at a touch of toe in front. retain rear at zero.
ROUND TWO Nov 25
"The car now is comfortable to drive" comfortable cars are fast cars.
here's the tire data:
in
tire pressure
29.5 | 27.5
--------------------
27 | 23.5
temps
139 147 161 | 149 140 140
.......150......|.........144.5
---------------------------------------
161 172 170 | 177 167 164
.......165.5...|......170.5
LF needs a touch of air since it should read 150
RF needs some air as it should be 144.5
LR is over inflated
RR is under inflated
note how blind you would be without a pyrometer...
given 53.5% of the tire temp is in the rear i would give dis-connecting the rear sway bar a shot.
there are lots of things to do here (tie wraps on the shock rods near the top of the list) and as i get more data i will continue to share.
i will get into lap times when the have meaning... the second outing the car had a huge muffler system on it which handicapped the motor. this will be remedied along w a bunch of other items on the list.
Go Lucho!
howard
here's Lucho's FD.... Nice!
as i recall Lucho contacted me after reading the suspension thread. he had a bunch of setup questions and was also interested in a motor. i helped him w his chassis and referred him to Jose LeDuc for a motor as i don't build NA. needless to say Jose built him a 10,000 rpm screamer... actually so much of a screamer he had to put alot of exhaust on the car to get back on track.
the special fun ATM is that being in the DR, Lucho can run all winter. so we on the thread can follow along this winter as the times come down.
the race series restarts in March so it will get more exciting with spring.
here's the track:
the first item that jumps out is that it runs counter-clockwise. 22 seasons of racing and i have never ran on a CC track. this has significant setup issues.
ideally you want as much inside weight as possible. my GT3 car, thanks to alot of lead in the rockers had 53% inside (right side) weight w me in the car. here, you want the opposite.
also, having more left turns has suspension settings needs.
Lucho has been out twice. the first outing the car came directly from the build shop. we all know how that goes. Lucho made 8 laps and things went pretty well w the exception of not much in the way of brakes. He hadn't been in a racecar in 12 years. i did note he had been pretty successful in his previous racing...
some of the items on the car:
LeDuc semi-peripheral port 10,000 rpm motor w a class limited choke of 65 mm.
Haltec Platinum 1000, rx8 trans, 4.77 rear end, Tilton double disc, R888 235/40/17 race rubber.
out:
1.4 degrees neg camber left side
1.8 degrees N C right side
29 | 27
----------
26 | 24
temps
132 130 142 | 143 134 135
.......137......|.........139
--------------------------------------
124 135 158 | 156 153 152
........141.....|.........154
aver corner temp
134.6 | 137.3
---------------------
139 | 153.6
tire temps lead us to tire pressure settings. the center temp should be half way between the outer and inner. (center ideal temp posted below the 3 temps)
for instance look at the LF. 132 and 142. the mid temp should be 137. it is 130 so in is under-inflated. you will end up at diff pressures at all 4 corners when you are tuned.
based on the above i recommended for the next outing:
30 | 27.7
-------------
26.7 | 24
turning to the temps...
the car is loose w 816 degrees in the front and 878 in the rear. (hooking up the rear is always the key to going fast in a rear drive front engine car)
the inner to outer temp gradient looks good in the front. the rear is a disaster and presents room to improve.
34 degrees diff in the LR!!!
4 degrees diff in the RR!
reset camber:
LR set it at minus one degree
RR set it at minus 2.5 degrees
reset front toe. toe out creates unstable braking. set at a touch of toe in front. retain rear at zero.
ROUND TWO Nov 25
"The car now is comfortable to drive" comfortable cars are fast cars.
here's the tire data:
in
tire pressure
29.5 | 27.5
--------------------
27 | 23.5
temps
139 147 161 | 149 140 140
.......150......|.........144.5
---------------------------------------
161 172 170 | 177 167 164
.......165.5...|......170.5
LF needs a touch of air since it should read 150
RF needs some air as it should be 144.5
LR is over inflated
RR is under inflated
note how blind you would be without a pyrometer...
given 53.5% of the tire temp is in the rear i would give dis-connecting the rear sway bar a shot.
there are lots of things to do here (tie wraps on the shock rods near the top of the list) and as i get more data i will continue to share.
i will get into lap times when the have meaning... the second outing the car had a huge muffler system on it which handicapped the motor. this will be remedied along w a bunch of other items on the list.
Go Lucho!
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 12-08-12 at 07:41 AM.
11-29-12, 03:29 PM
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Thanks Howard for all the info share and as you told me before " You have a lot of data from the first time out and nowhere to go but faster "
Many thanks to Leduc Racing Engines he did the best job possible on a 13B for sure.
We will improve the car as much as possible from December to March, first race of 2013 DTS Championship.
Many thanks to Leduc Racing Engines he did the best job possible on a 13B for sure.
We will improve the car as much as possible from December to March, first race of 2013 DTS Championship.
12-08-12, 08:15 AM
#819
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Lucho,
items to change based on your last set of data:
LF needs a pound of air since it should read 150
RF needs a pound of air as it should be 144.5
LR remove 1 pound/ over inflated
RR needs a pound/ under inflated
remove 1/2 degree negative camber from LF
add 1/2 degree negative camber RF
add 1/2 degree negative camber LR
run some laps with the the rear sway bar attached. get temps/press
run some laps w the rear sway bar attached and rear shocks set full soft. temps and press
reset rear shocks to initial setting and detach one end of the rear bar, run laps, get data
i also want your travel. tie wrap each shock rod, push them down (unless your shocks are trick upside variety, then it is up) against the shock body run laps and measure the amount they were pushed up. if you have the typical rubber bellows "protecting" the shock rod remove it as it has no function on a track car.
do you have corner weights with you in the car and half of the fuel load you run?
pls post your spring rates for each corner of the car. do your coil overs have the capability to run different spring rates?
ideally you want a set that runs USA short track springs (AFCO) as they are cheap and more importantly come in 25 pound increments which is essential for chassis tuning.
for instance one of the moves later on in the tuning process would be to add a small amount of cross weight into the car... the best method would be to add 25 pounds to the rate of the LR spring. w the typical metric "high perf street" setup this is impossible. do you know the free height and dia of your springs?
the primary tuning emphasis will be to work w the rear of the car which directs the chassis.
howard
items to change based on your last set of data:
LF needs a pound of air since it should read 150
RF needs a pound of air as it should be 144.5
LR remove 1 pound/ over inflated
RR needs a pound/ under inflated
remove 1/2 degree negative camber from LF
add 1/2 degree negative camber RF
add 1/2 degree negative camber LR
run some laps with the the rear sway bar attached. get temps/press
run some laps w the rear sway bar attached and rear shocks set full soft. temps and press
reset rear shocks to initial setting and detach one end of the rear bar, run laps, get data
i also want your travel. tie wrap each shock rod, push them down (unless your shocks are trick upside variety, then it is up) against the shock body run laps and measure the amount they were pushed up. if you have the typical rubber bellows "protecting" the shock rod remove it as it has no function on a track car.
do you have corner weights with you in the car and half of the fuel load you run?
pls post your spring rates for each corner of the car. do your coil overs have the capability to run different spring rates?
ideally you want a set that runs USA short track springs (AFCO) as they are cheap and more importantly come in 25 pound increments which is essential for chassis tuning.
for instance one of the moves later on in the tuning process would be to add a small amount of cross weight into the car... the best method would be to add 25 pounds to the rate of the LR spring. w the typical metric "high perf street" setup this is impossible. do you know the free height and dia of your springs?
the primary tuning emphasis will be to work w the rear of the car which directs the chassis.
howard
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 12-08-12 at 08:21 AM.
12-17-12, 05:24 AM
#821
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My first track day with the RX7 is over...What I learned from this experience ... WHAT a CAR !!! I can honestly say that even in standard form the RX7 is a race car with a number plate
The race track I visited is 3.2 kilometers long with 9 right and 7 left corners and a really nice straight where I saw almost 240 kph
The lap record with proper race cars is round 1.27 and my RX7 with the following setup did a 1.30.8 and then it started raining so I could not improve my laptimes. This was my first visit on a track with my RX7. I know the track very well from 1lt racebikes and my other cars but never before had I used the Rx7 on the track. WHAT A MISTAKE. The car feels like home
The car run a D2 coilover worth 800 dollars , HAWK HPS plus track day pads ( front only ) , 2 new semi slics on the rear ( R888 ) and used radial fronts ( Brigestone RE070 )
I was amazed with the amount of rear traction but after a while the front tyres started to fade so I had to back up. Despite that the car was 100% neutral with NO understear what so ever
What I did notice was that the ABS would come in very quickly and at very high speeds. This was a problem because I had to break earlier in order to compensate for the ABS working overtime which instead of shorter brake distance gave me more meters of useless braking.
It could be the brakes , it could be the second hand front radial tyres. It is something I have to address though for my next track event
I run -2.3 camber front and -1.7 rear. Caster was 6.2 degrees and I also gave a very small toe in both front AND rear
You would be amazed that the car could corner and maintain more corner spead than EVO 9 and EVO X cars and Imprezas as well
WHAT A car
I run both tyres at 28 psi cold and reached round 34 psi hot...
Unfortunately I did not gather any more data. I had a tyre temp gauge but was so amazed with the car that I never bothered using it....
I was amazed to see that the rear tyres after 50 laps where like new. I could easily do another 50 or 70 laps. The car was running between 370 - 400 bhp ( engine ) and was smooth like a baby's bottom... The D2 coilover had a 10% spring preload , 14 clicks front and 12 clicks rear and the hight was set according to howard... 25 inches front and 25.3 inches rear
The tyres where OEM size ( 255/40/17 and 235/45/17 )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXUC27wYUYQ
After reviewing the photos I realized that there was alot of suspension travel . This could be caused by the OEM anti roll bars , the D2 setup or just the chassis doing its job. On the other hand the car while driving it felt rock solid without any roll and it never scared me...Not once
So I will NOT do anything to the setup ( suspension , roll bar etc ) because I do not want to spoil this perfect ( for my likes ) setup and I will concentrate more on finding better front tyres ( either toyo R888 , yokohame A048 or Kuhmo V70A ) and possible a big brake ( 330x32 4pot ) setup and next time it will be running in the 1.28.xxx mark
On Sunday noon before the rain the Rx7 was running in 5th place out of 69 cars and just to point out that the first 4 where track ONLY cars with 4000 dollars suspensions and 3000 dollar brakes etc etc and 500bhp engines. Also all of the top 4 where running Yokohama full slicks and they where 2-3 seconds faster than me on 2 ( I was using to semi slicks and 2 second hand front radials )
So even if I left the car as it is and only fitted slicks I would be able to run from 1.30 down to 1.28 as we do know that this particular track can give up to 4 secs faster laps on cars running full slicks compares to semi slicks...
I am certain that I am forgetting something...Feel free to ask anything you wish
The race track I visited is 3.2 kilometers long with 9 right and 7 left corners and a really nice straight where I saw almost 240 kph
The lap record with proper race cars is round 1.27 and my RX7 with the following setup did a 1.30.8 and then it started raining so I could not improve my laptimes. This was my first visit on a track with my RX7. I know the track very well from 1lt racebikes and my other cars but never before had I used the Rx7 on the track. WHAT A MISTAKE. The car feels like home
The car run a D2 coilover worth 800 dollars , HAWK HPS plus track day pads ( front only ) , 2 new semi slics on the rear ( R888 ) and used radial fronts ( Brigestone RE070 )
I was amazed with the amount of rear traction but after a while the front tyres started to fade so I had to back up. Despite that the car was 100% neutral with NO understear what so ever
What I did notice was that the ABS would come in very quickly and at very high speeds. This was a problem because I had to break earlier in order to compensate for the ABS working overtime which instead of shorter brake distance gave me more meters of useless braking.
It could be the brakes , it could be the second hand front radial tyres. It is something I have to address though for my next track event
I run -2.3 camber front and -1.7 rear. Caster was 6.2 degrees and I also gave a very small toe in both front AND rear
You would be amazed that the car could corner and maintain more corner spead than EVO 9 and EVO X cars and Imprezas as well
WHAT A car
I run both tyres at 28 psi cold and reached round 34 psi hot...
Unfortunately I did not gather any more data. I had a tyre temp gauge but was so amazed with the car that I never bothered using it....
I was amazed to see that the rear tyres after 50 laps where like new. I could easily do another 50 or 70 laps. The car was running between 370 - 400 bhp ( engine ) and was smooth like a baby's bottom... The D2 coilover had a 10% spring preload , 14 clicks front and 12 clicks rear and the hight was set according to howard... 25 inches front and 25.3 inches rear
The tyres where OEM size ( 255/40/17 and 235/45/17 )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXUC27wYUYQ
After reviewing the photos I realized that there was alot of suspension travel . This could be caused by the OEM anti roll bars , the D2 setup or just the chassis doing its job. On the other hand the car while driving it felt rock solid without any roll and it never scared me...Not once
So I will NOT do anything to the setup ( suspension , roll bar etc ) because I do not want to spoil this perfect ( for my likes ) setup and I will concentrate more on finding better front tyres ( either toyo R888 , yokohame A048 or Kuhmo V70A ) and possible a big brake ( 330x32 4pot ) setup and next time it will be running in the 1.28.xxx mark
On Sunday noon before the rain the Rx7 was running in 5th place out of 69 cars and just to point out that the first 4 where track ONLY cars with 4000 dollars suspensions and 3000 dollar brakes etc etc and 500bhp engines. Also all of the top 4 where running Yokohama full slicks and they where 2-3 seconds faster than me on 2 ( I was using to semi slicks and 2 second hand front radials )
So even if I left the car as it is and only fitted slicks I would be able to run from 1.30 down to 1.28 as we do know that this particular track can give up to 4 secs faster laps on cars running full slicks compares to semi slicks...
I am certain that I am forgetting something...Feel free to ask anything you wish
12-17-12, 07:00 AM
#822
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
thanks for sharing, your pictures are a real plus for the thread. it is always great to see an FD out where it belongs, on a road racing track.
as to not messing w the car, there is something to be said for logging laps. of course what will happen is you will get obsessed w going faster than whatever you ran and you will eventually start fiddling. and going faster.
ABS while dynamic only knows slip which can come from a number of factors. it is possible to run fast w ABS IF the car is setup perfectly for it. OTOH, setting a chassis up perfectly for ABS might be a negative for overall road course speed.
i removed mine a long time ago and am very happy without it but brake bias does need to be adj.
love the last picture.
it shows the greatness of the FD suspension. notice how nice the camber is on the outside wheels even w some body roll.
BTW, what you are saying is you are comfortable in the car. that is partially because the car has some roll in it so it is able to tell you in advance where control ends.
howard
as to not messing w the car, there is something to be said for logging laps. of course what will happen is you will get obsessed w going faster than whatever you ran and you will eventually start fiddling. and going faster.
ABS while dynamic only knows slip which can come from a number of factors. it is possible to run fast w ABS IF the car is setup perfectly for it. OTOH, setting a chassis up perfectly for ABS might be a negative for overall road course speed.
i removed mine a long time ago and am very happy without it but brake bias does need to be adj.
love the last picture.
it shows the greatness of the FD suspension. notice how nice the camber is on the outside wheels even w some body roll.
BTW, what you are saying is you are comfortable in the car. that is partially because the car has some roll in it so it is able to tell you in advance where control ends.
howard
12-18-12, 06:01 AM
#824
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Howard I believe there is a fine line between an every day RX7 that can be used on the track and a track only FD. Furthermore I would like any improvements I may do to work both on the road and the track. I do not want to gain on the track and spoil the car on the raod. ie better brakes will help both worlds...
A friend of mine using an MX5 added stiffer roll bars ( front and rear ) and ended up with slower laps because the car scared him...
I was so happy with the overall package that the FD has to offer that decided not to change anything on the setup and only address the areas I think are weak
For example the brakes ( even with new rottors and track only pads ) felt weak . So I think a good 330x32 setup with 4 - 6 or 8 calipers is a good start
Tyres : the rear ones where perfect so I need a matching set for the front. I will stick to semi slicks because I still want to drive from and to the track and still have some rubber left for my daily driving
Chassi : All the rear bushes where installed so it would be nice to change the 8 front ones ( I think its 4 per side for the A- wish bones )
I also saw these two body strenghtening items...What do you think
1)eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d
2)eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d
3)eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d
These are the brakes I had in mind..Bear in mind I am not after the best kit in the world , just an improvement over the stock ones. Also my budget is a bit limited...The seller offered slotted only disks for the track and there are about 8 different compounds to choose from for pads for the track
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d
A friend of mine using an MX5 added stiffer roll bars ( front and rear ) and ended up with slower laps because the car scared him...
I was so happy with the overall package that the FD has to offer that decided not to change anything on the setup and only address the areas I think are weak
For example the brakes ( even with new rottors and track only pads ) felt weak . So I think a good 330x32 setup with 4 - 6 or 8 calipers is a good start
Tyres : the rear ones where perfect so I need a matching set for the front. I will stick to semi slicks because I still want to drive from and to the track and still have some rubber left for my daily driving
Chassi : All the rear bushes where installed so it would be nice to change the 8 front ones ( I think its 4 per side for the A- wish bones )
I also saw these two body strenghtening items...What do you think
1)eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d
2)eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d
3)eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d
These are the brakes I had in mind..Bear in mind I am not after the best kit in the world , just an improvement over the stock ones. Also my budget is a bit limited...The seller offered slotted only disks for the track and there are about 8 different compounds to choose from for pads for the track
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d
12-18-12, 01:55 PM
#825
i have the hawk hps which are a street compound. the +'s are a more agressive compund but there is still way better pads out there. there is a friend of mine on this forum who is building a mainly track fd and is searching for the limits of the stock brakes. he upgraded pads and totors and lines and fluid obviously which were big improvements over stock of course but the enemy was heat and fade so he did a custom brake duct setup which allowed him to run faster longer. if you want to run fast for a decent amount of time, even with bigger breakes you'll still need propper ducting. i'll see if i can find his thread. oh and hes running 285 hoosiers on ccws, much more grip than the r888 can give...