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"the cooler/higher intake charge density which leads to slightly more hp which in turn leads to more exhaust flow."
i use two EGT thermocouples to measure IAT since they are instantaneous and accurate...
V11 is IAT immediately out of the turbo
V10 is IAT in the stock FD location
at peak torque, 17 psi, 10.8 AFR my IAT out of the turbo is 49 C (120 F).
IAT after the IC is less than 6 C (42 F). since 6 is the lowest reading on the
EGT scale it is likely below 42 F.
Blue TII used the magic word.... DENSITY.
all we are doing with any hydrocarbon burning engine is burning oxygen molecules. the more we burn the more power is made. Density is the amount of molecules per volume. the colder the IAT the higher the density, the more molecules end up in the combustion chamber to burn...
cold IATs are money as far as power.
of course my measure point is upstream from the injectors so why so cold?
the upper intake manifold must be a madhouse.
IA is rammed at boost pressure past the throttle plate, UIM and LIM runners into the side iron ports and finally into the engine interior. i don't have firm numbers of the charge speed but Borg Warner measures exhaust speed in terms of Mach as in the speed of sound which of course is around 500 mph at sea level. the intake should be in the same zipcode.
given that there are 150 combustion events on one rotor in a second at 9000 rpm i can understand the Machspeed yardstick.
then the port closes and Newton's 3rd Law comes into play.... for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
the fuel laden mixture bounces off the closed port all the way back to the throttle plate before reversing.
we have a Super Bass O Matic going on in the LIM/UIM. that's why the stock location IAT reads especially cold w E85 as alcohol atomises way faster than gas and evaporation lowers temps.
my friend who runs in the 7s w his methanol burning 1000+hp 13BREW (14 1600 injectors) says you cannot put your hand on the UIM after a run or you will not be able to remove it. as in frozen to the aluminum.
since this is a turbo thread i will tie this back in to turbos...
the small numbers that are often overlooked on compressor charts are very important as they are efficiency measurements. efficiency as in temperature of the flow.
the difference in oxygen content between 60 and 65% efficiency is almost 10% in power.
i do have the Borg Warner newest (as in the last 2 months) 2015 SXE 62 mm compressor map. i am not able to release it until they show up on Matchbot.
one of the the big upticks is the small numbers on the map are larger
i am pretty sure that that also applies to the Garrett GTW, the Precision GEN2 CEA as well as the later EFR turbos.
Garrett has unveiled their new GTX-RS turbos at SEMA, so the question must be. Will any of these new turbos be a good fit for our cars?
The compressor map of the new GTX3582RS turbo is really wide and pushes 85lbs/min out of a GT35 frame.
The new GTX3076R Gen2 puts out 68lbs/min, which is about the same as the old GT3582R, but the drawback seems to be the turbine size.
I do wonder if there may be a variant of the GTX3076R with a GT35 or larger hotside coming soon. Edit: Guess I didn't realize this is exactly what the GT3576R is, but with a larger compressor cover.
Any thoughts?
Last edited by ACR_RX-7; 11-02-16 at 07:51 PM.
Reason: GT30vs GT35
But ...................... they did nothing for spoolup !!!
I have the GTX3576r setup and just looking at the flow map of the new GTX3576RS I really can't see a whole lot of difference from old to new. Yet the old turbo was rated at 600whp on 62lbs/min vs the new one 750whp on only 67lbs . Don't see how that works .
"GTX3584RS... as well as a newly-designed high flow RS turbine wheel on the backside for even better airflow than before."
when Garrett announced their GTW line a couple of years ago i was happy to see the upgraded compressor technology but scratching my head over the fact that all of the GTWs used the same, rather small, hotside wheel.
IMO Garrett has always been a bit lagging on the hotside. ideally there needs to be a balance between hot and cold dynamics.
last year at the PRI i had the pleasure of spending some quality time w Daniel Sussna, the new head of Garrett... newly appointed from Honeywell's Aerospace Div. we discussed every aspect of the Garrett product. i did discuss the apparent lack of consideration of the hotside and pointed out that the GTWs having only one turbine wheel seemed to indicate to me either an overall lack of interest in the product or a penny pinching driver. after a lot of hemming and hawing i read the latter.
Dan had just taken the reins of the division and appeared to be ready to optimize the product. further, it seemed as he had Honeywell's authority to get it done. Dan comes from the Aerospace Div and has a call on "2000 Aerospace Engineers" should he need help.
given time i see Garrett really moving up the ladder in terms of product.
so i am very interested in the "newly-designed high flow RS turbine wheel."
the PRI is just less than a month away and i expect to see Dan again and will be interested in his take on what he has been able to get done during the intervening year.
as to the GTX3584RS comp map...
i look at maps on the right (max output) side at 60% efficiency. looks to be 87 pounds per minute at 3 PR or 29.4 PSI boost/gauge pressure.
87 is 1259 CFM and 656 SAE Rotary RWHP.
given the smallish frame that is of course awesome
IF
the turbo employs a hotside wheel that is capable of driving the compressor to that area of the map. compressor maps are generated not from a hotside housing and turbine wheel but from an electrical drive.
one of BW's strong points is that they generally have a nicely matched hot and cold side.
hopefully Garrett is on the same train now thanks to Dan.
It really is something big to look into. I'm still assembling my car and I do not have a turbo selected, but for what I would perceive as to my goals the GTX3576R seems to fit the bill. I want a smaller frame turbo for response and for driving around town. Something that can produce 350-400whp and get me 300lb/ft of torque. I do wonder if the hotside on that turbo is just a touch restrictive as compared to a BW 8374EFR. Your thoughts, Howard?
Well, GTX3576R is basically the same turbo as EFR 7670, but with a 2mm smaller exhaust side and it doesn't spool as well (from both the compressor surgeline and the TiAl exhaust side).
GTX3576R compressor map does show better compressor efficiency at higher flow rates than the EFR 7670 as the trade off.
So... I would say the GT3576R exhaust side is restrictive compared to the EFR 7670.
Yeah, GTX3582R is the one close to EFR 8374 except it has 1mm smaller compressor wheel than the EFR and a 6mm smaller exhaust wheel and it still doesn't spool as well (from way worse compressor surge line and even that tiny exhaust wheel doesn't spool it like the big AlTi EFR exhaust wheel.)
Really the EFR 8374 is like the T04Z with a 1mm smaller compressor wheel and better spool (from compressor surge line and same size but much lighter exhaust wheel).
All three are great turbos on the rotary, but the EFR really changed the rotary game with that low rpm spool/torque and broad compressor map that compliments it.
I wonder ....................... if that new RS turbine tech will flow more than a similar sized turbine AND spool the turbo better ......... here's hoping !
Just looking at the turbine flow maps on the Garrett website though ..... The new GTX3582R Gen 11 vs the old GT3582R vs the GT3584RS ...flow is EXACTLY the same ! WTF ????
I also wonder ................ Does BW have some kind of patent in place that prevents other manufacturers doing what they did with the turbine wheels ? If not , why are Garrett faffing about with old technology like they are ?
I did notice that about the turbine flow maps. They all look the same as the old ones, but I was not successful finding a turbine flow map for the EFR turbos. I must be looking in the wrong spots.
Then the big question comes, will someone like Turblown take the new GTX3584RS compressor and mate it to a larger turbine wheel? P-trim?
If you can get your hands on the GTX5384RS, that would be really cool to see what it can do.
I Also want to see what the GEN2 GTX3576R will do on a 12-16psi run. This turbo sizing seems closest to my expected goals, but since the EFR turbos are so damn good, it is tough to argue against the BW turbo line.
I installed a gt35r hta 86 with a t4 1.06 ex housing
I think that will be equivalent to the RS?
Im more than very happy with it
So strange that Forsed Performance discontinue it
I did notice that about the turbine flow maps. They all look the same as the old ones, but I was not successful finding a turbine flow map for the EFR turbos. I must be looking in the wrong spots.
Then the big question comes, will someone like Turblown take the new GTX3584RS compressor and mate it to a larger turbine wheel? P-trim?
We've had a TDX62 for a quite some time
It makes more power than your tires will be able to handle at 30+psi.
EFR turbocharges are still by far the best that money can buy hands down, and I have yet to see anything in the works from anyone that will match their performance.
In the end, whenever I get my car on the ground, I'll likely go for the EFR anyways. It really does seem like Garrett is behind the 8-ball on the response the EFR line can produce. Must be something about patents.
I agree . If Garrett produced a GT CRHA with a lightweight turbine they would sell thousands of them not only with new turbos but as replacements for existing.
There doesn't seem to be any mention of a turbine patent on the B/W website but there is one on the ceramic bearing system.
10-02-15, 08:44 AM
