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I went this route for a few reasons the first being that I would need a minimum of 3 walbro 460's to drive this setup (2 in the surge tank, and one in the oem tank) and that combined with the cost of the AI SP800 surge tank would be $1600 and wouldn't include any lines or fittings. This would also have me mounting a surge tank in the trunk/cabin of my car which I didn't want to do.
At this point its looking like I'm going to have about ~$1600 in my complete fuel system upgrade that I have planned which includes upgrading my primaries to ID1300's, picking up the additional barely used set of ID2000's, all fuel filters, the sump, the sump welding, and the more expensive fragola PTFE hose and fittings should I choose to go that route.
I have to pick and choose my finances with this build. I am willing to sacrifice fancy and high dollar for old-school tried and true where it is cheaper to do so. I've been extremely busy with work and family matters as of recent, not to mention it has been 105+ F in Texas all month, but will be diving back into the build very shortly. Thanks all.
If anybody has any suggestions on what to do about the weld debris on the inside of the tank (shown a few pictures back) that would be great. I've gotten a few quotes for the cleaning/sealing of the tank and they are all in the $400-$450 range which seems insane to me. I'm thinking I can take my die grinder and a stainless steel brush head and clean it up, then clean out the entire tank, and then apply some sort of sealant/protective coating to just the affected welded area. The rest of the tank looks fine on the inside and I think sealing the entire thing would be overkill.
I went this route for a few reasons the first being that I would need a minimum of 3 walbro 460's to drive this setup (2 in the surge tank, and one in the oem tank) and that combined with the cost of the AI SP800 surge tank would be $1600 and wouldn't include any lines or fittings. This would also have me mounting a surge tank in the trunk/cabin of my car which I didn't want to do.
At this point its looking like I'm going to have about ~$1600 in my complete fuel system upgrade that I have planned which includes upgrading my primaries to ID1300's, picking up the additional barely used set of ID2000's, all fuel filters, the sump, the sump welding, and the more expensive fragola PTFE hose and fittings should I choose to go that route.
I have to pick and choose my finances with this build. I am willing to sacrifice fancy and high dollar for old-school tried and true where it is cheaper to do so. I've been extremely busy with work and family matters as of recent, not to mention it has been 105+ F in Texas all month, but will be diving back into the build very shortly. Thanks all.
If anybody has any suggestions on what to do about the weld debris on the inside of the tank (shown a few pictures back) that would be great. I've gotten a few quotes for the cleaning/sealing of the tank and they are all in the $400-$450 range which seems insane to me. I'm thinking I can take my die grinder and a stainless steel brush head and clean it up, then clean out the entire tank, and then apply some sort of sealant/protective coating to just the affected welded area. The rest of the tank looks fine on the inside and I think sealing the entire thing would be overkill.
-Skeese
You could have purchased the hanger and welded it into your tank and added some baffling to support it.
Anyways. I think your going about it the wrong way. 700rwhp cars built on a budget never work out. Spend the money once and do it right, use proven products.
You could have purchased the hanger and welded it into your tank and added some baffling to support it.
Anyways. I think your going about it the wrong way. 700rwhp cars built on a budget never work out. Spend the money once and do it right, use proven products.
External sumps welded to the tank, and external pumps are not proven? Serious question, maybe I am still living in the past, but this used to be a proven approach.
You could have purchased the hanger and welded it into your tank and added some baffling to support it.
Anyways. I think your going about it the wrong way. 700rwhp cars built on a budget never work out. Spend the money once and do it right, use proven products.
Budget is a relative term brotherman, and this is not a budget build. It is not a budget chassis, budget motor, budget ECU, budget harness, budget injector combo, budget fuel line, budget intercooler, budget turbo at $2500 new before the turbosmart actuator, nor budget fuel system. My build cost spreadsheet is enough to cause even the most die hard rotorheads to cringe and think about miatas.
I'm not looking to over engineer where it isn't necessary. I do that daily for a living. My goal is simple. Proven parts, simple system, minimal fabrication, minimal points of failure, and maximum attention to detail. I agree that the AI surge tanks/hangers are badass, but if I was going to go that route I would simply design my own tank/hanger, source quality raw material from the vendors we use for gas turbine fluid control systems, and have the tank/hanger constructed to meet my needs. Given my material resources, fabrication/machining resources, and CAD design resources I personally see no reason to spend that kinda dough. I see this in the same light as the previously mentioned comment about upgrading to ID1300/1700's over ID1000/2000's as they are supposed to be designed for E85, but the manufacturer specifies that they all are. Ideal, maybe. Required to meet my needs, no. Worth spending a ton to replace something that already meets my needs, definitely not.
Originally Posted by KNONFS
External sumps welded to the tank, and external pumps are not proven? Serious question, maybe I am still living in the past, but this used to be a proven approach.
I was also under the impression that an external sump welded to the tank, with external bosch 044's, properly sized filtering elements and fuel lines, and proper wiring was a proven approach.
Anyways, updates to come. I've been too busy at work to make any real progress but I plan to get the tank sorted and pumps ordered in the next week.
Hey sorry.....could you remind me what Injectors you have again? Did you say two 1300's and two 2200's?
Only reason I ask is I see your going Semi-pp. We ran out of injector on the Dyno. Couldnt Rev over 8100 RPM at 20Lbs. Originally we thought it was a combo of pump and Inj. But I swapped my (6) ID1300's for (6) ID1700's and went back to the dyno... and Ran all the way up to 9200RPM with Rock Solid Fuel Pressure the entire Rev. Pretty Cool.
Hey sorry.....could you remind me what Injectors you have again? Did you say two 1300's and two 2200's?
Only reason I ask is I see your going Semi-pp. We ran out of injector on the Dyno. Couldnt Rev over 8100 RPM at 20Lbs. Originally we thought it was a combo of pump and Inj. But I swapped my (6) ID1300's for (6) ID1700's and went back to the dyno... and Ran all the way up to 9200RPM with Rock Solid Fuel Pressure the entire Rev. Pretty Cool.
Whats up Aaron? I meant to text you back and ask how the 1700 upgrade went.
I'll be running the two ID1300's I bought from you as primaries and then 4 ID2000's in a 4 port FFE secondary rail going into an xcessive LIM modified for semi-peripheral port holes and o-ringed seals by chip. This will give me a total injector flow capability of 11,580 cc/min at 43.5 PSI which by all calculations should be more than enough. It was argued earlier in the thread that ID1000's and ID2000's weren't suitable for E85 and that only the ID1300's and ID1700's were. I didn't see any benefit of swapping my existing already owned ID2000's for 1700's over this as I know many many people, including you, have run ID1000's/ID2000's with E85 without issues for years.
While my setup will differ from yours in that I will have a sump instead of a surge tank, my plan is still to run two un-staged 044's through an 8AN line with all proper filtering. Any reason you would think I'd need more pump to be able to run 32 PSI on E85 out of a 9180 since you are on the 9174 and E85?
While I don't have any real world proof that they make it all the way to 750 the *theoretical* fuel required for 750 rwhp (assuming my turbo can get me there) is 10,003 CC/min = 158 GPH.
The 044's should flow 75 GPH each for a total of 150 GPH at 75 PSI (43 base fuel pressure + 32PSI Boost) which leaves me about 5% shy of the calculated required fuel flow for 750. That being said, it is all theoretical to a degree. The calculation included constants estimated from real world data, estimated effect of lag, and a 15% safety net on duty cycle. If the pumps don't support 750 rwhp it should at least be close. I have the option to add a boost-a-pump if needed, but will be keeping a close eye on fuel pressure running the 044's at 13.5 and some beefy wiring to start with.
In other news...I've been slack on progress with the fuel system, but I have however order the fuel tank cleaner and sealer kit as well as a smaller dremel to use to clean up the weld debris on the inside of the tank. I'm forcing myself to re-motivate and get back on it on as the engine delivery date is slowly but surely creeping up.
Finally some progress, I think at least. I've been busy with other non-rotary related things which has been totally find since I've mostly just been killing time until I can get my new motor, but I am within a month and a half now so it is time to get back on it.
I spent a solid few days sealing the tank last week where I did the 3 step system from KBS coatings exactly as per the instructions. After the seal material had set and cured for 4 days I pumped the tank back full of E85 and rigged up a drain from the sump outlets with an on/off valve. I figure I'll let it sit there for a full week then drain it through my spare filter and then check for contaminates. Call me paranoid I guess, but I want to know 100% for sure that sealant isn't going to come off the inside of the tank and cause a sealing problem. I really don't think it will though. That KBS sealant is some tough ****. I spilled some on my concrete driveway that sat there for a while and cured an I do belive it will outlast the driveway. Seriously, that stuff isn't coming off.
Assuming my tank passes the seal test alright, I'm going to put the tank back in, and measure to see how much room I have on the side to mount the pumps. I'm still planning on using a pair of 044's with the XRP direct mount prefilters. I'll be upgrading my weldon fuel filter I have never used to have a 10 micron SS filter. At this point all I really have left to do to start making physical forward progress is to settle on a line/fitting brand and commit to it.
At this point I've kinda narrowed it down to the four options in the chart below. At this point this covers the dual -10AN lines from the sump outlets to the prefilters, then the line from the pump discharge manifold to the post filter inlets/outlets that will ultimately terminate in the engine bay with the Y block where the lines will split to the rails.
I haven't quite figured out how I want to do the engine bay portion, but really just because I haven't figured out if I want to run -8AN for the whole thing including the return OR split from the Y block to -8AN to the secondary rail and a -6AN to the primary. Also unsure as to if I need a 6 or 8AN return line from the regulator back. Anyways...I'll be moving on to that part of the plan next. As always, any suggestions or comments are welcome!
Cheers guys, I'm glad to be back at it. Pics and test results from fill test to come next.
-8AN In/Out, and -6AN Return should be perfect. You could go -10AN In/Out, and -6AN return as well.
I'd go Improved Racing out of all of those. It's what I'm about to order for my 34 row oil cooler on the Integra and what my entire FB will likely be out of.
-8AN In/Out, and -6AN Return should be perfect. You could go -10AN In/Out, and -6AN return as well.
I'd go Improved Racing out of all of those. It's what I'm about to order for my 34 row oil cooler on the Integra and what my entire FB will likely be out of.
I'll have dual 10 AN suction lines going from the pump to the pre-pump filters which is at this point set. The 8AN line running from the manifold discharge is also set. I think the only part open to change at this point is whether I want to split it at the 7 block fitting and run 6 AN line to the primaries and 8 AN to the secondaries or 8 AN for both.
Then the return line from the regulator is still open to 6 AN or 8 AN lines. I'm planning on running the normal 43.5 PSI base fuel pressure, but I will be running both 044's full time so that is still a lot of fuel in circulation.
I still haven't settled on line type either. I'll be draining the tank of E85 this weekend to check and make sure the sealer sealed correctly. Once I confirm that the tank is good to go meaning I"ll for sure be using it I will pull the trigger on the hose and fittings one way or the other. I'm changing jobs and going to have the next two weeks off with nothing to do so its go time.
After having the fuel tank sit full of E85 for a full week I drained it using a compound of metal screen mesh as a filter. I figured that if any of the sealant would be flaking or peeling off it would be obvious even with this coarse screen.
Out of about 10 gallons of fuel this was all that turned up in the screen. I had taken my spare beater hanger and put it on the tank during the sealing process and upon inspection found it had sealant peeling off of the entire underside, to which I attribute the debris in the filter.
Soooooo as I am off work for a few weeks in-between jobs and have the time I decided to fill and drain the thank again. I completely filled the tank with E85 and sealed it using my good hanger and then gave it another week. After the week I picked up the tank, rotated it all around, shook it every which way and then drained it again with double the filter material as the first time to find...NOTHING. So as far as I'm concerned the seal is good and the tank is good to go.
I went ahead and put the tank back in the car so as to measure and plan my fuel line routing and external pump mounting. I had originally planned to place the pumps of the driver side of the tank however in hindsight this is concerning to me as this will place the pumps directly behind the rear drivers side wheel where they would be in the line of fire for any debris the wheel picked up.
I'll be working on the car for the next 5 days straight. Plan today is to finish installing the tank by getting the fuel neck right and then mocking up pump and line placement. Any advice on fuel pump location options is welcome.
Following this thread as I am undertaking a similar build at the moment. I will be using the walbro pumps with the CJ hanger, aiming for a similar power figure. I want to avoid going to an in tank triple if possible.
Following this thread as I am undertaking a similar build at the moment. I will be using the walbro pumps with the CJ hanger, aiming for a similar power figure. I want to avoid going to an in tank triple if possible.
Depending on your driving, are you sure you won't starve the system in hard cornering/accelerating? Internal Surge solves that.
Everything actually went as per the plan and I picked up the motor in late December and brought it home to Texas. I've been too busy with getting the car back together and ready to run to really have time to document anything, but here is how she turned out. I'll spare you the details of the motor/turbo/baconpan install and try to keep it fuel related, but if you want to check that out that will all be going into my sorry build thread located here:
So I mocked up the pumps on the back side of the rear subframe using a piece of flashing from home depot combined with an ebay dual 044 mount. Once I got it to fit like I wanted using one of the holes through the subframe, I ordered a T6061 sheet of aluminum to match the size I had cut the flashing to.
I ended up mounting them under here instead of on the side of the OEM tank like I originally planned as they would have been unprotected and directly in the line of fire behind the rear tire. I also skipped the dual-minifilters to instead use the Weldon I already had. I replaced the paper filter in what became the post pump filter with a 10 micron stainless mesh one and then bought a matching Weldon in 10AN with a 100 micron stainless steel filter to be used pre-pump.
So I moved into the engine bay and made the lines in parallel as planned. I also got the deal of the century on ebay when I randomly found the huge *** $275 Weldon fuel pressure regulator I wanted for $75 shipped. The manufacturing date stamped on the side showed it was less than 6 months old. Yessir.
It actually really surprised me that I had 0 fuel leaks across the entire system when I first pressurized it. On top of the the car fired on the first turn of the key, which is pretty crazy to me since its a semi peripheral port that hadn't run in 6 months after being dropped into an all new car with new fuel everything. BAM. First fire. Good **** right there. I can't comment yet on if the fuel system will hold up to what I planned for it in this thread as only yesterday did I take it on its first ride around the neighborhood since this overhaul....
I can say, the motor is every bit as nasty as I hoped it would be. Its so damn loud at idle you can hear it for miles even on just the 3.5 DP to 3" back. It literally shakes and pulsates the air when its chops. I've managed to get it to idle at 1700 rpms, but it CHOPS SO HARD at 2000 I'm thinking I'm just going to have to have that 2000 rpm BRAP. Video to first drive below. I've still got a long ways to go tuning it and sorting out all the picky **** associated with a semi peripheral, but you get the idea.
I aim to do with this exactly as I said in the beginning. This motor is going to see every bit of hell the throttle can throw at it with whatever boost I can make out of the 9180. If she doesn't do 750hp I'm betting she will with an 83mm batmowheel and some nitrous to help the spool.
One thing from my experience, keep a very careful eye on the short lines from the two pumps to the Y fitting.
Because the hose is stiff and the run is short with the push lock nipples taking up length you can see there is a tighter bend right at the nipple end on the Y fitting. This will tend to abrade the hose from the inside and it will split earlier than it would otherwise.
If you go to -an style you will lose the push lock nipple length for a longer hose length to have the bend in and there won't be the internal stress riser of the nipple against the short radius of the hose bend.
-edit- actually, this would be a prime place for steel hardline and tube nuts. I am not a fan of Aluminum because it fails with vibration and it is connected right to the pumps.
I lost a motor from this when I first did my '044 in-tank. The hose lasted about a mile and ofc failed under WOT. Your mileage may vary, but I would hate to see it fail ever.
One thing from my experience, keep a very careful eye on the short lines from the two pumps to the Y fitting.
Because the hose is stiff and the run is short with the push lock nipples taking up length you can see there is a tighter bend right at the nipple end on the Y fitting. This will tend to abrade the hose from the inside and it will split earlier than it would otherwise.
If you go to -an style you will lose the push lock nipple length for a longer hose length to have the bend in and there won't be the internal stress riser of the nipple against the short radius of the hose bend.
-edit- actually, this would be a prime place for steel hardline and tube nuts. I am not a fan of Aluminum because it fails with vibration and it is connected right to the pumps.
I lost a motor from this when I first did my '044 in-tank. The hose lasted about a mile and ofc failed under WOT. Your mileage may vary, but I would hate to see it fail ever.
Hey Blue! Thanks man, to be honest I knew it was going to be mean...but didn't realize how mean. I absolutely can't wait to feed it some boost.
I 100% agree on the lines. The short bends in the pump-merging line have been bothering me since I put it all together. I'm going to be adding external check valves here soon and was going to try to extend the lines some and reduce sharp pull against the pushlock nipple...but I really like the idea of using a hardline for that portion.
Your car is looking awesome. Choppin' like a helicopter at 1900rpm too. Can't wait meet you and the mini-greyhound
Thanks man, I'm pumped to stop by. As soon as I get back from this trip I'm cutting my hood hole and going to the dump, I can't wait for that 2k chop straight out the hood
08-29-16, 11:42 AM
